I kindly request Ilona or Elsa to guide me through

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jeronimo
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Re: I kindly request Ilona or Elsa to guide me through

Postby jeronimo » Tue Sep 09, 2014 10:58 pm

Is ego something that can be found? Or an idea / thought?
Definitely cannot be found. It's a thought/idea.
Is it something that can be found using the senses? Is it an 'object'?
No. Can't be found with the senses. Not an object.
Can you find anything other than an idea about what it might be? A thought about it?
No.
Ok - What it that? What is the 'I' directing the focus? Can you locate it?
Indeed, what is it? I cannot locate it. It's a thought that there is direction of focus, which then "seems" to be confirmed by the thoughts/actions that follow. But they're just thoughts confirming thoughts.
Is there an 'I' here right now that control the body?
Nope. "I" was just walking back to my office. Very clearly, walking was just happening.
Have 'you' ever controlled this body?
Guess not. "I'm" not controlling the body now, so never could have been.

Gratitude!

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Xain
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Re: I kindly request Ilona or Elsa to guide me through

Postby Xain » Tue Sep 09, 2014 11:02 pm

Did you choose to start this conversation with me?
Have you ever chosen anything ever?

What is 'I'? What have you found so far?

Xain ♥

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jeronimo
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Re: I kindly request Ilona or Elsa to guide me through

Postby jeronimo » Wed Sep 10, 2014 12:36 am

Did you choose to start this conversation with me?
Ha! Good one. Of course thoughts say yes. But how could "I" choose to start this conversation? No.
Have you ever chosen anything ever?
Ouch ;) Guess not. Cognitive dissonance aside... no.

(The ouch is a kind of funny poke through the thought stream)
What is 'I'? What have you found so far?
It appears that "I" is a thought or group of thoughts that claim authorship over what happens. Apparently, and inconceivably, before and after things happen. OR maybe it just seems that way.

Thoughts. Only thoughts.

Many Thanks!

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Xain
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Re: I kindly request Ilona or Elsa to guide me through

Postby Xain » Wed Sep 10, 2014 10:46 am

Right now, is there a seperate person, an 'I' reading this text?

During this guiding, I have asked 'you' to examine your experience.
Is there a 'you' with an experience to examine?

Notice that our conversation here is all 'thoughts'. A conversation of thoughts 'apparently' being passed from one person to another. But are they?

'I' can ask 'you' to look at something. The message appears to be understood.
But is it anything more than thoughts?
Is it just a load of thoughts?

Is there a 'you' understanding what is being read? What is being asked?

Is there a 'you' controlling the heartbeat? Or the breathing? Or the eyes moving across the screen right now?

Has there EVER been a seperate you doing ANYTHING?
Could it all have been thoughts all along?

Xain ♥

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jeronimo
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Re: I kindly request Ilona or Elsa to guide me through

Postby jeronimo » Wed Sep 10, 2014 6:20 pm

Right now, is there a seperate person, an 'I' reading this text?
No. No separate person reading.
Is there a 'you' with an experience to examine?
Well.. this is where the cognitive dissonance arises. Certainly seems/feels like an experience is happening. But when looked for, there is no "me" having the experience. Then who/what is doing the looking?

The experience happens. The looking happens. All happening - seemingly - in response to other stuff happening.

So... there is an experience to examine. But it's not "my" experience. Cognitive dissonance because the thoughts are still very clearly claiming the experience. There is both "me" and the recognition/realization of no "me" happening in continuous cycle.

Does that mean "I'm" seeing this or is it another belief/perspective being tried on? Can't say for sure.
Notice that our conversation here is all 'thoughts'. A conversation of thoughts 'apparently' being passed from one person to another. But are they?
Don't know how the mechanism works. There are thoughts in response to the words read. So there is an apparent exchange and interaction. Seemingly from one "person" to another. But also clearly no owners of those people involved.
'I' can ask 'you' to look at something. The message appears to be understood.
But is it anything more than thoughts?
Is it just a load of thoughts?
All experience "understood" appears mediated by thought. In order for "me" to understand... or for understanding to happen, thoughts happen, words formed, etc.

So then yes, the understanding is all a load of thoughts.
Is there a 'you' understanding what is being read? What is being asked?
If I can't find the "me" in control then there's no "me" understanding. Yet understanding is happening. Who or what is being asked or understanding? I don't know how to answer that. It's not "me."
Is there a 'you' controlling the heartbeat? Or the breathing? Or the eyes moving across the screen right now?
Certainly not.
Has there EVER been a seperate you doing ANYTHING?
Hesitation... It would appear that a separate "me" doing anything would be impossible.

Definite state of cognitive dissonance, but NO.
Could it all have been thoughts all along?
It does appear that way, yes.

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Xain
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Re: I kindly request Ilona or Elsa to guide me through

Postby Xain » Thu Sep 11, 2014 10:32 am

Well.. this is where the cognitive dissonance arises. Certainly seems/feels like an experience is happening. But when looked for, there is no "me" having the experience. Then who/what is doing the looking?
A natural question - Let's consider it.

All we have done so far is to examine the experience each time to find a seperate self, an 'I' that is involved. Each time we realise it 'just happens' and that there isn't a seperate self doing the activity.
Notice we are looking for a 'thing', an existing object that is separate from everything else that is responsible (because that's what we believe is happening).
This is all that the mind and thought can cope with - Single objects - Individual separate items.
Our understanding of the world is to divide it up into lots of separate objects, each one with qualities and labels.

BUT . . .

Since a SEPARATE object cannot be found, what can we then say?
'What is doing the looking?' is a question from the mind and thought. The mind demands a 'thing' - Something that can be labelled and quantified. What if there isn't a separate 'thing' doing things?
What can you say?
The experience happens. The looking happens. All happening - seemingly - in response to other stuff happening.
Yes - And perhaps if you look a little deeper, you may realise that 'in response to other things' is also just a thought - An idea about what is happening.
There is both "me" and the recognition/realization of no "me" happening in continuous cycle.
All just thoughts and ideas?

Clearly something exists. Something is 'here'. But is it a separate 'thing'? Is it something that the mind can grasp?
If I can't find the "me" in control then there's no "me" understanding. Yet understanding is happening. Who or what is being asked or understanding? I don't know how to answer that. It's not "me."
The words are being understood.
Looking even deeper, even saying 'understood' is just a thought - An idea of what is happening.
Hesitation... It would appear that a separate "me" doing anything would be impossible.
:-) ♥
Could it all have been thoughts all along?
It does appear that way, yes.
Then rest with that - That's all there is to grasp. You are there!
And there is no 'you' that is there to grasp it!

Xain ♥

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jeronimo
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Re: I kindly request Ilona or Elsa to guide me through

Postby jeronimo » Thu Sep 11, 2014 5:24 pm

What if there isn't a separate 'thing' doing things?
What can you say?
I hear all sorts of thoughts that praise God .. in a whimsical way ;)
There's a way of reading the letters for "god" in the Jewish mystical tradition. The Hebrew letters that make up the name "yud" "heh" "vav" "heh" are all vowels. The name is unpronounceable. It's something that cannot be spoken. It cannot be comprehended in a way to speak about it. It's not some sort of separate object to grasp.

Whatever it is, it is beyond the ability for little thoughts to contain.

Thanks for bringing me back to a true "understanding" of this ... idea (words don't work).
The mind demands a 'thing' - Something that can be labelled and quantified.
So true. It's a prison when mistaken for the real thing! Moving past the thoughts ... release into flow. Right here, right now. The "looker" can not be grasped, because it's not a thing. It's nothing! Everything! Another Jewish mystical name for "it' is "without end" or "infinite."

Interesting all these Jewish notions are coming up ... it's my background and I've done some study of the mystical tradition... but it's not something I've been doing recently. Feels clear now.
All just thoughts and ideas?

Clearly something exists. Something is 'here'. But is it a separate 'thing'? Is it something that the mind can grasp?
Yes, when trying to discuss, it's all thoughts and ideas.
No separate thing.
Impossible to grasp with the mind.
Then rest with that - That's all there is to grasp. You are there!
And there is no 'you' that is there to grasp it!
Got it! Got what? Who's got it? Nobody!

Good. I'll play with it.
Been here before (??)... or perhaps not quite the same "place".

Everything suddenly aligns into clarity.

I realize that what I've been teaching others in my practice - a method of releasing patterns/feelings/behaviors - has been pointing to the "nothing" that's underneath it all. But a part of me wasn't comfortable with that "concept."

"I" think "it's" clear now!

:)) Will I be able to get back to writing sentences without putting quotes around everything?!

Let me know next steps.
I'd love to share this method with others!

(deep bow to "you")

With a strong, vibrant sense of Gratitude to YOU

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Xain
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Re: I kindly request Ilona or Elsa to guide me through

Postby Xain » Thu Sep 11, 2014 10:55 pm

:)) Will I be able to get back to writing sentences without putting quotes around everything?!
There is no need.

This conversation . . . these words on the screen are thoughts and ideas.
If I ask you to examine something, we know this is simply on the level of thought.
There is no 'I' writing this to you (other than an idea) and I know there is no 'you' that will be doing the task.
However, we don't need to change our writing style or even demand that 'I' is only a thought all the time. It is just realised. We know that it's all thoughts and ideas. And we can relax and enjoy it from that perspective :-)
No change needed. Does that make sense?
Thanks for bringing me back to a true "understanding" of this ... idea (words don't work).
You are welcome. I hope what I said made sense.
I realize that what I've been teaching others in my practice - a method of releasing patterns/feelings/behaviors - has been pointing to the "nothing" that's underneath it all. But a part of me wasn't comfortable with that "concept."
But whatever was happening was perfectly fine.
Was there a 'you' that could have done it any differently, or chosen a different concept?
Was there ever a separate 'you' doing it anyway?
Let me know next steps.
I'd love to share this method with others!
(deep bow to "you")
With a strong, vibrant sense of Gratitude to YOU
You are very welcome. ♥

How do you feel?
Is it quite clear how thoughts themselves make up 'I' - Make up the story all along?
Are there any areas that are unclear? Do you have any further questions?

As part of this process, there are a further six questions I can ask which may further assist you and 'solidify' the realisation (or point any sticky areas). Are you ready for them?

Xain ♥

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jeronimo
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Re: I kindly request Ilona or Elsa to guide me through

Postby jeronimo » Thu Sep 11, 2014 11:11 pm

No change needed. Does that make sense?
Yes, of course. I was a little giddy and joking about the quotes :) It's just a funny notion to speak with so much ownership, when none exists.
Was there a 'you' that could have done it any differently, or chosen a different concept?
Was there ever a separate 'you' doing it anyway?
Very clearly, no!
How do you feel?
I feel mild to moderate sense of elation. Lightness. Expansiveness. Like that.
It all feels familiar, yet with more clarity.
Thoughts want to introduce skepticism, but quickly float away.
A very palpable sense of ease/flow ... and moments that challenge that flow... which then quickly resolve.
Is it quite clear how thoughts themselves make up 'I' - Make up the story all along?
Quite clear, yes.
Was there ever a separate 'you' doing it anyway?
Nope!
As part of this process, there are a further six questions I can ask which may further assist you and 'solidify' the realisation (or point any sticky areas). Are you ready for them?
Shoot!

Big Hug

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Xain
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Re: I kindly request Ilona or Elsa to guide me through

Postby Xain » Fri Sep 12, 2014 8:49 am

Great stuff, Jeremy :-)

Here are the first three of the six questions - Have a go at answering them when you have a moment.
There is no rush.

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

2) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference between 'now' and from before you started this dialogue? Perhaps give a report from the past few days.

3) Was there a last bit that pushed you over? Made you look and realise? Perhaps something I mentioned, or something that you looked into yourself?

Xain ♥

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jeronimo
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Re: I kindly request Ilona or Elsa to guide me through

Postby jeronimo » Fri Sep 12, 2014 6:50 pm

no time like the present :)
1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?
No.

(This is such a different use of the word, "no." It is accompanied by a great sense of expansion, release and freedom. Most of the time, "no" feels like a barrier, a border, for a contained space that has felt restrictive.)

There hasn't ever been a "self/me/I" as a separate entity in any way, shape, or form.
2) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference between 'now' and from before you started this dialogue? Perhaps give a report from the past few days.
The past few days have been interesting. There is an increased feeling of energy in the body. As someone who works with energy and other people, I notice a very strong sense of energy streaming through all parts of my body. Feels good. At times, it feels very strong... so I'm working with that as there are moments of intensity. All good.

Before the dialogue, I had been feeling almost opposite... as though a contraction was happening. It felt like I needed to solve this once and for all. "I" was beginning to worry that I wouldn't ever get there.

And now ... there is a sense of relief... thought that doesn't capture it. Relief that there's nothing to be relieved about! Ease. Joy. Easy joy.

There's a perceptual experience that is a bit like a low-level hallucinogenic drug, where everything seems brighter, crisper, and more alive. Or maybe more like after a powerful session with a healer, as the expansiveness has a grounded feeling as well.

Everyday struggles are less intense right now. It has been easier to make decisions in my work/business and implement things quicker than before. Less reactive. Personal experiences dissolve quickly into just experiences. Yes, I've noticed this all in a couple of days... we'll see how it lasts.

It has been profound. It's a state that my thoughts don't expect will last... but so far, it's lasting. I have felt similarly before, but there is a different flavor now. More settled. Less agitated.

There's a desire to tell others about my experience... but more a desire to simply share this energy. Like an outpouring of love.

So I guess it's been pretty dramatic. And... the world is still the same. The details of life still the same. Something like a big reminder/reorientation has occurred.

Release.

Thank You!
3) Was there a last bit that pushed you over? Made you look and realise? Perhaps something I mentioned, or something that you looked into yourself?
There were a few things that shifted it.

First off, reading Gateless Gatecrashers had a profound effect. I remember a point in reading when I practiced looking. At one point, "I" noticed that there was "just seeing" going on, instead of a me seeing or looking. It was a memorable state of nothing there but perception.

Then, reading a thread on this site, I tried the arm exercise and had a very clear sense of "no controller" lifting that arm. Very powerful.

Then you expanded on that and we did that exercise again and I felt stuck on the idea that even though I wasn't lifting the arm, there was some kind of intention to lift a particular arm... which had a sense of control. You told me to notice how thoughts come in before and after things happen to take responsibility. It never occurred to me that thoughts could jump in before the action. That popped it open a bit.

Also the noticing how thoughts assign "foot" and "ground" when there is simply sensation... was a profound shift. I could see it all as thought.

All thought commenting and taking ownership over experience that is just happening. As I looked at that in all aspects of my day, it became very clear, indeed.

Many Thanks to Xain!

Heart Open.

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Xain
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Re: I kindly request Ilona or Elsa to guide me through

Postby Xain » Fri Sep 12, 2014 11:00 pm

All thought commenting and taking ownership over experience that is just happening. As I looked at that in all aspects of my day, it became very clear, indeed.
That is excellent. Yes.
I recommend you take this path further if the interest arises. Really examine how far and how much 'thought' plays into our understanding and knowledge of the world. You may be surprised!

Here are the final three questions:

4) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now. (Feel free to use conventional language here)

5) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control. What makes things happen? How does it work? What are you responsible for? Please give examples from experience if possible.

6) Do you have anything else you would like to say or add?

Xain ♥

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jeronimo
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Re: I kindly request Ilona or Elsa to guide me through

Postby jeronimo » Sat Sep 13, 2014 12:39 am

I recommend you take this path further if the interest arises. Really examine how far and how much 'thought' plays into our understanding and knowledge of the world. You may be surprised!
Will do!
4) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now. (Feel free to use conventional language here)
The illusion of a separate self is very simply a thought or stream of thought that claims a separate existence from the flow of life itself. The illusion is that there is a character, in my case, Jeremy, who is in control of his life. The Jeremy character itself is just thought. His experiences are claimed/owned by the self/Jeremy so that he believes they are his experiences.

It's hard to say when it starts from my own experience. Seems that it must begin in childhood and is more or less the programming that we acquire through our life experience. It's so widespread that it is unquestioned and rarely examined at all. Of course, all of this is just thought.

I see it now, more than ever before, as a story. Nothing at all is real about the story. NOTHING. It's a wonderful work of fiction. Totally immersive and believable. Even when this notion has been revealed before... the idea that life is a story... the self came back to claim it. Then there was me who knew it was all a story.

But now it seems much clearer as though there is a distance between the story and the life flow... or something like that. When I look in the mirror, the body I see looks less like "mine" and more like a body. Other people look less like my story of them and more like other beings in the dance.

A big shift.
5) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control. What makes things happen? How does it work? What are you responsible for? Please give examples from experience if possible.
No-thing makes things happen. They just happen. How does it work? I have no idea.

Things happen and the mind/thought claims to have made decisions, intentions, and choice. Control is an illusion. There is none. Free will does not exist. Everything is free. No individual identities making choices. There is no chooser. No decider (sorry, George Bush).

What am I responsible for? There is no "me" so "I'm" responsible for nothing. (Except, of course, in the legal sense that society might impose on the fictional character that thoughts create)

"I" just got finished putting acupuncture needles into a client. "I" am not responsible for him coming to my office or for me choosing points to use the result of the treatment. This is all happening whether or not "I" take responsibility for it.

I am typing this reply and thoughts appear in and around the typing. "thinking" about what to write, etc. All of this is happening automatically and without a chooser or decider to cause the typing.

It's kind of hilarious ;)
6) Do you have anything else you would like to say or add?
What's to add? It's clear. Funny, now there's nothing to do! Except of course, what is happening to do. This will take some adjustment, I suppose.

I'd very much like to learn to guide, if this is appropriate. I think I could be helpful to others seeing it. It feels right.

This process is so straight forward and simple. It should be widely and freely shared!

Many Thanks, Xain, for your guidance!

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Xain
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Re: I kindly request Ilona or Elsa to guide me through

Postby Xain » Sat Sep 13, 2014 8:24 am

Thanks, Jeremy.
I will pass our conversation on to other guides for them to have a look at.
Back shortly . . .

Xain ♥

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Xain
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Re: I kindly request Ilona or Elsa to guide me through

Postby Xain » Sat Sep 13, 2014 11:29 am

Well that was quick!
The guides have no more questions for you, and neither do I.

Our conversation is now at an end. Thank you. I have enjoyed it.

Of course, you may message me at any time if there are problems or any other areas that you wish to explore.
If you are on Facebook, I can get you added to our groups. There are groups for 'new arrivals', 'Further looking' and aftercare. Let me know your Facebook name and page link in a private message if you want this.
(Click the red name 'Xain' and choose 'Send Private Message')

All the very best to you for the future, Jeremy :-)
Xain ♥


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