Help with post awakening clarification

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Original Face
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Re: Help with post awakening clarification

Postby Original Face » Sun Jun 22, 2014 4:50 pm

1)
The idea of the individual self is a dead issue but the idea of a universal self is still and issue here.

The key word here is ‘idea’. As you saw that the individual self is only an idea, with no reality behind it, you must see something behind the ‘idea’ of the universal self if it remains an issue?
As you sit here, after reading these words. Take a moment to scan your direct experience and tell me, where is this ‘universal self’? Can you point to it? Does it have a shape, a size, a colour? Please describe what you see. Don’t scan your thoughts for it. Look in your here and now, that’s the only place we can test.
No. It cannot be pointed to. No size, shape or colour. Nothing to see except desire to see. Very overcome emotionally. It's really not there - just an idea. Weeping now. Relief/grief. Calm.
2)
I definitely have the feeling that there is something I am missing. I believe my knowledge is incomplete.

Can you describe that feeling, how does it manifests itself in your experience? Is there a physical sensation? A sensory experience attached?
If you say that ‘The idea of the individual self is a dead issue’, then who or what is missing anything? The 'universal self' you now identify with? Does a universal self miss anything? Please consider this for a moment. Stay with this question. See what comes up and let me know.
It feels initially like fear. An anxiety in the chest. A kind of fundamental mistrust of a me that is inadequate. No, the universal self is perfect. I am seeking something perfect outside myself out of an insufficiently seen and examined belief in an inadequate self. No such perfect thing exists - it is the belief here which is the problem.
3)
I believe that happiness will arrive when I stop seeking outside the moment - a habit which seems to still persist.

Again, who or what is seeking? The individual self, which you saw through long ago? There is nothing to seek, nothing to find, and more to the point, no one who could find anything.
When I look at the looking there is just a pain in the head, a tension in the shoulders, a subtle movement 'away'. I can't find any entity doing this. There is subtle mental resistance to the idea of nothing to find. The "It can't possibly be this simple" feeling. There is a bloody minded obstinacy here which just won't give in. Sad again. It is a belief in an inadequate self. It doesn't exist. Peace appears when that is seen.
4)
I don't want emotions and intense feelings to stop. I would like them to stop causing me to suffer or cause suffering to others.

Who or what are these entities, ‘me’ and the ‘others’, that are suffering? Ideas, phantoms (your word)? The ‘universal self’?
They are collections of thoughts which believe they are an entity and experience suffering when the entity is threatened in some way. The entity does not exist but the belief does and causes suffering due to wanting the world to conform to it's views. In reality there are no beings - me, you, God etc.
5)
I don't think of it in terms of getting rid of self, ego, I for the simple reason that these are phantoms. I would like to get rid of the tendency to believe in these phantoms including the 'universal self' phantom.

If they are seen as phantoms, why are they still believed? When you found out that Santa did not exist, did you continue believing in it?
There really is no belief in these Phantoms. I think there is a kind of nostalgia for them. Rather like there can be for Santa Claus or childhood memories. I have a great tendency towards sentimentality. I think I have been in the rage stage of grieving for samsara and may be entering the depression stage. Probably followed by grief and acceptance (mental health training coming out there). This is interesting and bringing a lot to light - thank you.
Do take your time with these questions. Stay with them. Contemplate them and look in your most present and immediate experience. Right now, what is happening? What is seen/heard/tasted/touched? What is experienced? Is there an entity doing all that experiencing? In other words, can you experience an experiencer? Or is there just experiencing?
At the moment just experiencing - I will stick with this last instruction though and keep looking.

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Freddi
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Re: Help with post awakening clarification

Postby Freddi » Sun Jun 22, 2014 6:07 pm

Hi Tom
At the moment just experiencing - I will stick with this last instruction though and keep looking.
Great. Keep returning to this. Use it as your point of anchor. Return to your breathing, notice the senses, all the happening of the moment. That’s WHAT IS and that is all there is.
Very overcome emotionally. It's really not there - just an idea. Weeping now. Relief/grief. Calm.
That’s what’s happening for you. Let these emotions come up, don’t resist them or push them away. Welcome them and see what they have to say, if anything. Give them all your attention. Let me know if anything comes up.
I am seeking something perfect outside myself out of an insufficiently seen and examined belief in an inadequate self. No such perfect thing exists - it is the belief here which is the problem.
Stay with that thought ‘I am inadequate’. Really question it, what is ‘I’? What is ‘inadequate’? Inadequate for what? Where you are sitting right now, stop and look. Is there an entity there that is not adequate?
There is no such thing as ‘inadequacy’ apart from in our thinking.
When I look at the looking there is just a pain in the head, a tension in the shoulders, a subtle movement 'away'. I can't find any entity doing this. There is subtle mental resistance to the idea of nothing to find. The "It can't possibly be this simple" feeling. There is a bloody minded obstinacy here which just won't give in. Sad again. It is a belief in an inadequate self. It doesn't exist. Peace appears when that is seen.
Thank you, again, for this dedication and honesty. Yes, it is that simple. It takes only one honest look, in this moment. Stop. Look. There is no separate entity running the show. Only Life happening, and the ’Tom-ness’ or ‘Fred-ness’ qualities are expressions of Life. All unfolding on automatic.
They are collections of thoughts which believe they are an entity and experience suffering when the entity is threatened in some way.
Can a thought believe? Can a thought identify? Can a thought think? Does it have that power? Or is belief just a thought following another thought?
I think I have been in the rage stage of grieving for samsara and may be entering the depression stage. Probably followed by grief and acceptance (mental health training coming out there).
All we can say for sure is what is experienced right here and now. The rest is assumptions, that includes ‘stages’ (rage, depression, acceptance) in mental health. Whatever is experienced right now is the only happening. If it is rage, that’s what is, if it is depression, that’s what is. Who or what is in that rage stage, or that depression? Is there an ‘I’ there, in experience, that is claiming all this?
Question all assumptions, Tom, against the actuality of your present experience, don’t leave any stone unturned. There can be a lot of ‘unlearning’ to be done … once the absence of self is seen.

Warm wishes

Fred
"To come to your senses you have to go out of your mind" - Alan Watts

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Original Face
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Re: Help with post awakening clarification

Postby Original Face » Mon Jun 23, 2014 9:56 pm

This is a very general report as i am still observing;
Very calm.
Feel very ghostlike.
Empty.
Whispy.
Very clear that there is no one here.
Quiet.
Clear.
Not grasping.
Very aware of what is passing through mentally, emotionally.
A sense of something missing - but in a good way.
No ideas about Awareness being an identity - in fact that looks absurd.
Becoming quite emotional as I write this.
My hands seem quite beautiful as they dance across the keys. nothing to do with a me. It's just happening. The colours. The light. The shadows of the veins. The tapping. Perfect. Nothing to do with a me. All happening - period.
Could there really be nothing further to seek?
It seems so.
I can't see what more there would be which was not a fantasy occurring in the moment.

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Re: Help with post awakening clarification

Postby Freddi » Tue Jun 24, 2014 6:02 am

Wow that is a beautiful post, steeped in direct experience, so honest. Thank you.

1)
A sense of something missing - but in a good way.
Would you like to describe this sense, seen from direct experience? Is it a sensation?
As you read these words on the screen, smell the air, feel the various sensations around what we call the body. What is missing?

2) Would you say you have seen through the illusion of self? Are there any issues, questions or doubts you would like to raise at this point?

3) How would you explain this illusion to someone who has never heard about it?

4) Without a 'me', a 'you', a 'he' in charge, what about choices, decisions? Can you look into everyday decisions such as what to eat, what to wear, how to drive, etc and let me know how it all unfolds? Again, scan your direct experience and report on what you find.

Thanks!

Fred
"To come to your senses you have to go out of your mind" - Alan Watts

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Original Face
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Re: Help with post awakening clarification

Postby Original Face » Tue Jun 24, 2014 7:58 am

1)
Original Face wrote:
A sense of something missing - but in a good way.

Would you like to describe this sense, seen from direct experience? Is it a sensation?
As you read these words on the screen, smell the air, feel the various sensations around what we call the body. What is missing?
I would say it is an absence of compulsion. Thoughts arise but not the compulsion to act on them. Similar to the kind of thing which can happen with concentration on retreat but without the sense of a special state of mind. Seeing with the senses seem so real by comparison with the shadows in the mind.
It is not a sensation. Nothing is missing.
It is a kind of non appreciation of the mind or extra appreciation of phenomena or possibly impersonal view of the mind.
A viewing of things as equal.
the self idea makes us focus on bits of experience and make some me and some not me.
This is not happening just now.
2) Would you say you have seen through the illusion of self? Are there any issues, questions or doubts you would like to raise at this point?
Yes, I would say that the illusion of self at this point is non operational. I cannot say wether it could or could not re - emerge. There is residual fear that it might - although as I write that, there is no physical sensation of fear; just the thought - no emotional response to it - it is not believed one way or the other.
3) How would you explain this illusion to someone who has never heard about it?
At this point I can honestly say I have no idea how to answer that question. I feel this is still being investigated.
4) Without a 'me', a 'you', a 'he' in charge, what about choices, decisions? Can you look into everyday decisions such as what to eat, what to wear, how to drive, etc and let me know how it all unfolds? Again, scan your direct experience and report on what you find.
thank you for this last instruction - I will see.

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Freddi
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Re: Help with post awakening clarification

Postby Freddi » Tue Jun 24, 2014 9:09 am

I would say it is an absence of compulsion. Thoughts arise but not the compulsion to act on them. Similar to the kind of thing which can happen with concentration on retreat but without the sense of a special state of mind. Seeing with the senses seem so real by comparison with the shadows in the mind.
It is not a sensation. Nothing is missing.
It is a kind of non appreciation of the mind or extra appreciation of phenomena or possibly impersonal view of the mind.
A viewing of things as equal.
the self idea makes us focus on bits of experience and make some me and some not me.
This is not happening just now.
Nice ;-)
Yes, I would say that the illusion of self at this point is non operational. I cannot say wether it could or could not re - emerge. There is residual fear that it might - although as I write that, there is no physical sensation of fear; just the thought - no emotional response to it - it is not believed one way or the other.
If it did re-emerge, would it be a problem? Who or what would label it as a problem, if it is seen as illusory?

Thanks for your clear answers. I look forward to reading what you find as you look into decision-making.

Fred
"To come to your senses you have to go out of your mind" - Alan Watts

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Re: Help with post awakening clarification

Postby Original Face » Tue Jun 24, 2014 9:26 am

If it did re-emerge, would it be a problem? Who or what would label it as a problem, if it is seen as illusory?
It is possible that it would just be noted as a thought form and treated as equal to other thought forms - we'll see.

So far with decision making. I have noted throughout waking up, break fast answering emails a total absence of any decision making entity or even process to be honest. Will keep watching.

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Re: Help with post awakening clarification

Postby Freddi » Tue Jun 24, 2014 9:33 am

So far with decision making. I have noted throughout waking up, break fast answering emails a total absence of any decision making entity or even process to be honest. Will keep watching.
Great. Look into how a certain option is apparently chosen over another one. For example, tea and coffee are two options. One is picked. Is there an entity choosing? Can a 'chooser' be experienced, or is there just picking of an option happening? Say a hand reaches out for coffee, what are the factors that come into play?

Thanks for this earnestness!

Fred
"To come to your senses you have to go out of your mind" - Alan Watts

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Re: Help with post awakening clarification

Postby Original Face » Tue Jun 24, 2014 10:12 pm

Is there an entity choosing? Can a 'chooser' be experienced, or is there just picking of an option happening? Say a hand reaches out for coffee, what are the factors that come into play?
I have been watching all day. There is no choosing entity. Choice happens. Sometimes it seems to be absolutely automatic. There is no awareness of a mental process - just, as you say, the hand reaches out, that is noticed, it opens the refrigerator, a moment of mental blankness, picture of coffee bag, the eyes search, see it, pleasant feeling, the hand reaches etc. Sometimes there is a mental debate - no one does that - just mental forces jostling for position. In the middle of class phone goes, unpleasant feeling, glancing around to check people's reaction, hand reaches for phone, thought that I shouldn't answer it, answering it, feeling of guilt, glancing around, noticing slightly angry tone in the voice etc.
3) How would you explain this illusion to someone who has never heard about it?
I still don't really know the answer to this one beyond that I think what is most important is authentic verification of one's own understanding. If the mind is clear about certain realities then it will communicate them if necessary. I think you would communicate this differently or not at all depending on the person you were interacting with. the best methods - I think - ask questions rather than impart information.

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Freddi
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Re: Help with post awakening clarification

Postby Freddi » Wed Jun 25, 2014 6:09 am

I have been watching all day. There is no choosing entity. Choice happens. Sometimes it seems to be absolutely automatic. There is no awareness of a mental process - just, as you say, the hand reaches out, that is noticed, it opens the refrigerator, a moment of mental blankness, picture of coffee bag, the eyes search, see it, pleasant feeling, the hand reaches etc. Sometimes there is a mental debate - no one does that - just mental forces jostling for position. In the middle of class phone goes, unpleasant feeling, glancing around to check people's reaction, hand reaches for phone, thought that I shouldn't answer it, answering it, feeling of guilt, glancing around, noticing slightly angry tone in the voice etc.
Great, thanks!
If the mind is clear about certain realities then it will communicate them if necessary. I think you would communicate this differently or not at all depending on the person you were interacting with. the best methods - I think - ask questions rather than impart information
OK, try this question: When you say ‘I’, ‘me’, ‘self’, what are you referring to, these days? What is ‘I’?

What, if anything, has changed since we started this process? Where is the identification with the universal self, now? Is seeking still going on?

Thanks!

Fred
"To come to your senses you have to go out of your mind" - Alan Watts

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Re: Help with post awakening clarification

Postby Original Face » Thu Jun 26, 2014 7:32 am

OK, try this question: When you say ‘I’, ‘me’, ‘self’, what are you referring to, these days? What is ‘I’?
Upon investigation - the sound of the fridge - "Is that me?" - "No" - felling in the body - "Is THIS me" (note use of this not that) - "Yes".
The mind categorises things into me and not me like a nasty old Nationalist.
Then the mind comes in with "But it's all me." Like a 'benevolent' old Imperialist.
I am not buying either of them today.
Who is not buying?
They are not being followed by thoughts which build upon the thoughts resulting in a view of self.
It is easy to communicate as if this body/mind were an entity because that is how the language is constructed - with that assumption at the heart of it.
Mind - not seen - just thoughts.
These hands on the computer are just a picture. Points of pressure. Tapping. Pale morning sunlight through the leaves inferred from the light on the table. Picture of the garden from 'memory'. Looking up through the doors. Joy. Poppies.

What, if anything, has changed since we started this process? Where is the identification with the universal self, now? Is seeking still going on?
What seems to have changed is that the mind is seen but not believed at the moment.
The universal self is seen as a thought with some nice feelings attached to it - like the thought of my favourite mountain - Roseberry Topping.
Certainly there is investigation happening but currently not the painful urgency I would call seeking.

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Re: Help with post awakening clarification

Postby Freddi » Thu Jun 26, 2014 7:58 am

Certainly there is investigation happening but currently not the painful urgency I would call seeking.
Life is a constant investigation. When the first domino of the absence of self is shot through, a long line of assumptions can wait in line, to be questioned, investigated, burnt up in the fire of attention. That is an exciting journey.

It is my feeling that you have seen through the illusion of the self, Tom.

Are there any issues or doubts you would like to raise at this point?

If not, and if you’re ok with it, I would like to ask you our usual summing-up questions, to make sure that we’ve covered all areas, and that no doubt persists. Then, if you’re fine with that, I’ll invite other guides to have a look and confirm that we have not left any stone unturned.
Then, again if you are interested, I would like to invite you to a couple of discussion groups where you can share with ‘others’ who have seen through the illusion. That is a great way to deepen one’s clarity.

What do you say? Shall we go for it?

Thanks!

Fred
"To come to your senses you have to go out of your mind" - Alan Watts

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Original Face
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Re: Help with post awakening clarification

Postby Original Face » Thu Jun 26, 2014 8:48 am

Why don't you ask the questions and we'll see what emerges.

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Re: Help with post awakening clarification

Postby Freddi » Thu Jun 26, 2014 9:03 am

OK ;-) great way to look at it: let's see what emerges.

Here are the questions. Take your time, no rush. As usual, answer from direct experience. Just what comes up, as plainly as it comes. Be as detailed as you like.

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?
 
2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now. 
 
3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.
 
4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look? 
 
5) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control. What makes things happen? How does it work? What are you responsible for? Give examples from experience.
 
6) Anything to add?


Thanks!

Fred
"To come to your senses you have to go out of your mind" - Alan Watts

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Re: Help with post awakening clarification

Postby Original Face » Thu Jun 26, 2014 10:21 pm

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?
 
There is no separate entity 'self', 'me', 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form and it never did!

I am really going to consider the second question for a while.


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