Hi - is Ilona or Elena able to guide me please?

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Elsa
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Re: Hi - is Ilona or Elena able to guide me please?

Postby Elsa » Mon Jun 02, 2014 2:10 pm

Hi Elena
I am practicing noticing my thoughts, feelings, sensations, noises etc in my daily life. I am not able to do it every second as I do forget but once I remember, I am following the instructions and remembering to do this more.
:-)
Blessings,
Elsa

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Elsa
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Re: Hi - is Ilona or Elena able to guide me please?

Postby Elsa » Tue Jun 03, 2014 1:15 pm

i ,
Elsa here again, just calling in as promised. I am going to do another writing my thoughts down for 45 minutes on a word doc... not sure if I am supposed to continue doing it here, but anyway, taking notice of my thoughts daily... its a very slow process Elena, is this how it is meant to be?.
Blessings XOX
Elsa

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Elena
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Re: Hi - is Ilona or Elena able to guide me please?

Postby Elena » Tue Jun 03, 2014 6:08 pm

"I am practicing noticing my thoughts, feelings, sensations, noises etc in my daily life. I am not able to do it every second as I do forget but once I remember, I am following the instructions and remembering to do this more"

No, you are not practicing - there is no you to practice...
no, not your thoughts, feelings, sensations...
no, you are not doing
You do not forget
You do not remember
You do not follow

there is no you

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Elsa
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Re: Hi - is Ilona or Elena able to guide me please?

Postby Elsa » Wed Jun 04, 2014 12:46 pm

No, you are not practicing - there is no you to practice...
no, not your thoughts, feelings, sensations...
no, you are not doing
You do not forget
You do not remember
You do not follow

there is no you
Thought arises, what is it that hears the thought, the thought cannot be the intelligence because there is some thing that registers the thought, acts on the thought or not, or lets the thought go...what lets thought go?
thoughts stream through all day long, noticing this has shown this to be evident.
Pain in body happens, thought analyses and analyses and then whatever it is that starts to get caught in the thought becomes an I, a me that then owns the story that starts to unfold.
Wow, this is so tricky Elena and this body brain called Elsa has been so sucked into being an I , a me.
So very tricky........
Or is it that simple, intelligence, it just does everything, is there an it that thought it was a me, "it is running the show, but it is no one thing, not an I or a me... oh god, is it that simple really? hands are typing and noise is being heard.... wow, there is no I having any control, , that is so clever, so dam clever and yet not even clever, labelling is happening as thoughts come in the I wants to start analysing but it doesn't stick this time...there need be no words to explain no explaining... that is all for this moment.
blessings,Elsa

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Elsa
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Re: Hi - is Ilona or Elena able to guide me please?

Postby Elsa » Thu Jun 05, 2014 3:01 pm

Hi Elena,
I am going away for three days, it is a holiday weekend so am going up into the forest and will not have computer or phone until Monday 9th in the evening when I return. I will post a comment tomorrow (Friday) before leaving and then on Monday evening when I return. (have to use "I" as what other alternative is there in the everyday world..haha!!). Blessings Elena.
XOX
Elsa.

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Elsa
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Re: Hi - is Ilona or Elena able to guide me please?

Postby Elsa » Fri Jun 06, 2014 3:23 am

Hi Elena,

Went for a walk this morning, felt pain in the leg, thought said Pain" then an "I" said "oh I still have pain in that leg"
(noticing how it went from feeling - to thought to 'My" ownership of it)

noticing now that feeling/sensation/noise/image becomes thought then becomes my thought. "my thought" is a phantom.

It happens automatically at this time

Blessings and many thanks,
Elsa X

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Re: Hi - is Ilona or Elena able to guide me please?

Postby Elena » Sat Jun 07, 2014 2:07 am

Honey, I am sorry I have to ask someone to fill for me here...as you noticed, i couldn't reply to you every day....I will find someone good, no worries...

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vinceschubert
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Re: Hi - is Ilona or Elena able to guide me please?

Postby vinceschubert » Sat Jun 07, 2014 9:56 pm

Hi Elsa, vince here. As Elena is unable to continue guiding you, i am happy to step in. (if you are happy with that) i also am in Australia, so that might be convenient with time zones.
It seems as if Elenas' exercises have revealed some things about thinking (and other stuff) - could you give me a summary of what. (please include what was noticed on your weekend trip to the mountains)
Then give me a rave on what your expectations are for this enquiry.

love

vince

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Elsa
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Re: Hi - is Ilona or Elena able to guide me please?

Postby Elsa » Mon Jun 09, 2014 5:33 am

Hi Vince,
I am very happy to have you guide me, and the fact you are in Australia is even better!!
I will post a reply to your question tonight. Just wanted to pop in and say hello.
I am on Melbourne time if that is of any help and for 3 or 4 nights of the week I get home very late but will make sure I can post every night.

Blessings,
Elsa.

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Elsa
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Re: Hi - is Ilona or Elena able to guide me please?

Postby Elsa » Mon Jun 09, 2014 1:00 pm

It seems as if Elenas' exercises have revealed some things about thinking (and other stuff) - could you give me a summary of what. (please include what was noticed on your weekend trip to the mountains)
Then give me a rave on what your expectations are for this enquiry.
Hi Vince,

What I noticed through doing the exercise of just watching and listening to the mind chatter and writing the chatter down verbatim, was that thoughts come from seemingly no where and disappear into seemingly nowhere.
It is like an uncontrollable mad person at times, never stopping, getting distracted, and there is a knowing that something or some intelligence listens to and watches the thoughts otherwise there would be no awareness of them.
There is an "I" that thinks it is thinking the thoughts until it is invesitigated, and on investigation, there is no I or me to take ownership of the thoughts because the thoughts come and go of their own volition.
What is the next thought going to be? who knows? who cares? only an I would care... and it does and it gets caught up in the story and believes itself to be a real "I"dentity

While in the mountains, creating and painting was happening, and this body/brain did not stop to investigate the thinking process. I became the I again, the Me, like on automatic default, I was struggling to get a painting finished, I was taking ownership again of "my" self and at times realising that there is no I and then a forgetting.
Watching a movie one of the nights, there was an identification from a me and then when there was an awareness that there is no me, that me put up alot of resistance not to investigate saying " I am too tired" "I don't want to look at this right now" etc

My expectations are this:
Enquiry has revealed that there is no I or me, that this is a fictitious identification through conditioning as there is no control over thoughts arising and subsiding, they are automatic and random. If there was an I or me controlling these thoughts then I would not create thoughts that would make a me "suffer" eg "I am not good enough" " I am stupid" etc. However, there is a something or an awareness that is aware of thinking. A pain happens in the body and then this is translated via thought eg (pain in body) "ouch my foot hurts" ... "I wonder why it is sore, maybe it is from running...maybe there is something wrong with my foot and I shouldn't run on it .. it might get worse.. then I might damage it if I keep running on it.. (stress) what will happen to my fitness if I can't run... and what if I can't run in the fun run in 10 weeks... and I will let my team down... maybe I should tell them now that I won't be running because I have damaged my foot.. or maybe I will just run with a sore foot and the pain might go away ...but what if it doesn't? (stress)

So the expectation through enquiry is to know 100 percent that there is no I or me and to end the suffering with identification to an I or me who apparently "suffers" and at times the suffering feels real.
Thoughts will keep arising and subsiding, feelings, emotions, sensations too, and I want to really know, really know without a doubt that there is no I or me running the show.
Rant over for now. Most grateful to you Vince.

Blessings,
Elsa

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vinceschubert
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Re: Hi - is Ilona or Elena able to guide me please?

Postby vinceschubert » Mon Jun 09, 2014 9:51 pm

Good Morning Elsa.
and there is a knowing that something or some intelligence listens to and watches the thoughts otherwise there would be no awareness of them.
Ok, great start. Consider this; Is there anything besides current experiencing and thoughts about stuff ?
When i say "thoughts about...", there is the thought which consists of a story. The thought is experienced, but its' content is always concept. Right ?
So is Experiencing ALL that is Real ?
Now, back to your statement; There is listening. There is watching. There is awareness.
These are all experienced.
...but to say that there is some intelligence is a deduction. An assumption. A story.
It might or might not turn out to be true, but it is pure fantasy at the moment. Do you agree ?

love

vince

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Elsa
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Re: Hi - is Ilona or Elena able to guide me please?

Postby Elsa » Tue Jun 10, 2014 6:54 am

Hi Vince,
Consider this; Is there anything besides current experiencing and thoughts about stuff ?
When i say "thoughts about...", there is the thought which consists of a story. The thought is experienced, but its' content is always concept. Right ?
So is Experiencing ALL that is Real ?
Whooo ok! The first part of your sentence I need to look at... "It's content is always concept"
I am sitting in my lounge room and the "hearing" of cars going by registers and a thought tells me that cars are going by. Sound was experienced and then thought comes in and defines what that noise is so yes it is a learnt noise and I have known what a car sounds like since I was very small so I could agree that it is a concept. If something unfamiliar goes past on the road, a sound I have not heard before and the noise registers in the brain and a question pops up "what is that noise?" that is thought seeking a label so a questioning thought cannot be a concept in that aspect therefore not all thoughts can be concepts. Or is it that questioning thoughts are looking for a concept to hang themselves on? Are there not thoughts like that which are there to alert us to danger, ie BOOM, what the hell was that??? (adrenalin pumps and fight or flight kicks in) intuition is running to move me away from the potential danger - that can't be a concept... look at a baby , a baby hears a loud noise and there is a startle reflex where the whole body spasms and then a cry from fright...the baby has no concepts available at that age, it just reacts.
So back to looking at my own thoughts.. a few years ago I was walking along the street and a car with an old couple drove past very slowly and the whole underneath of the car was on fire. I just reacted and yelled at the guy to stop and pulled him out of the car.... My thoughts were just get him out before the car explodes... afterwards the conceptual thougths came in that I had two children and I took a big risk doing that blah blah bah
So at this stage I can't see that all thoughts are conceptual...

Current experiencing, looking at this , I see that I can't experience anything in the past, only thoughts about the past and memories (images) which are loaded with thoughts are all conceptual. I can't even say or prove a past, I can show a photo of someone that was taken in a moment of that persons life but it is just an image, I cannot prove that person exists, it is just an image. I may think or believe that the person is alive.. but I can only know if that person is standing in front of me right now that he exists in my experience at the present moment.
I can't experience the future as it hasn't happened, only my thoughts will project out and make up a story or concept about a perceived future however,once again I can't prove a future time, that is impossible. I can never do anything in the future or the past.

Experiencing in this instance seems to be real, when there are no thoughts attached , hearing, seeing, feeling without labelling or concepts has to be real because that is all that there is , even silence or no sound in this instance is experience or awareness..not sure what it is called haha!! as soon as a thought arises to say that was silence or that was hearing or that was just seeing... then it is not experiencing, it is analysing the experience, but it happens so quickly! Before thought there has to be experience because there is nothing to define it ,label it or conceptualise it .. it is just happening.
Now, back to your statement; There is listening. There is watching. There is awareness.
These are all experienced.
...but to say that there is some intelligence is a deduction. An assumption. A story.
It might or might not turn out to be true, but it is pure fantasy at the moment. Do you agree ?
I agree that I am creating another concept by calling the experience an intelligence that sits behind thought. It is crazy, I have seen glimpses of this but I still try to hang a concept on it and I don't know why.. this is the frustrating part on my part..anyway I will look....."I" am just a thought creating more layers of thought...but what for?
OK hearing happens, seeing happens, and when I look internally and see a space between the happening and the thought arising to create a concept about it, I call that background awareness and thus create a concept and yet another layer between what is and what isn't. I concede that yes, it is pure fantasy and just another label coming from a me ! However, the I that I think I am seems to habitually be on conceptualising auto pilot!!!

Blessings,
Elly

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vinceschubert
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Re: Hi - is Ilona or Elena able to guide me please?

Postby vinceschubert » Tue Jun 10, 2014 1:52 pm

Good evening Elly, Wow, i love your observation and analysis skills. Obviously i am going to have to be more precise
with my wording.
So at this stage I can't see that all thoughts are conceptual...
Ok, let me put it another way. Although you can experience (the fact of) a thought, they are always about something. They are never that actual thing itself. i say this as a juxtaposition between the content of thought and experiencing.
the I that I think I am seems to habitually be on conceptualising auto pilot!!!
Yes. This is the result of conditioning. Our language constantly reinforces the illusion of a separate Self as does our cult(ure), our society. It also elevates the role of thinking to an importance that relegates the other five senses to something primitive.
By conditioning, i refer to established neuronal pathways (in the brain). These can be allowed to atrophy and new synaptic connections created with different experiencing. This will happen when the inappropriate involvement in story ceases.
How do we recognise when we are lost in story ?
Here is a video that explains some of this; https://www.dropbox.com/s/mskv8uxmnmf2f ... _Being.mp4

love

vince

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Elsa
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Re: Hi - is Ilona or Elena able to guide me please?

Postby Elsa » Tue Jun 10, 2014 2:20 pm

Hi Vince,
Cooool reply!
And I didn't know I had any skills in this area haha.. I really am scratching around in the dark here becasue I have no concept of what I am looking for, just a sense and memories of a few glimpses.. but totally on fire to see through all this conceptual stuff I get hooked on.
It is very late, but I am grateful for your reply and I will engage in the information you have given me tomorrow evening when I get home.
Blessings to you,
Elsa.

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Elsa
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Re: Hi - is Ilona or Elena able to guide me please?

Postby Elsa » Wed Jun 11, 2014 2:20 pm

Hi Vince,
I enjoyed the video and understand neural pathways, the three brains etc and how our thougths and memories become like grooves in a record!! constantly translating, defining, labelling and conceptualising or making "sense from non sense"!
So back to your statement that all thoughts are content in some way and not the real... not your words exactly.
So scientifically I can see from the video that is true, but I wonder about when I am asleep, and all through the day, there are millions of processes going on that the I that thinks is running the show, but has no involvement in like growing hair, skin, toenails, new cells, making the heart beat or pumping blood around the body... breathing!.

My scientific mind jumps in and wants to know what is creating all of that to happen, because there is no conscious effort coming from a perceived me that is telling my hair to grow, or when to blink, or to get 50 something muscles to move my hand and arm up to my head to scratch it in a split second?
Even when people are in comas, they often hear exactly what people are saying around them, their bodily functions continue and they continue to grow, such as hair, skin etc.

The desie for Elsa is to directly experience that "whatever" is running the show.. is it possible to ever find out?
The guy in the video said "the mind is the brain in action"... I don't know where the mind is... I have looked and can't locate it. I know where the brain is but how does anyone know where the "mind is" ? I am stumped!!

Blessings,
Elsa


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