close, but no cigar..

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seeming
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Re: close, but no cigar..

Postby seeming » Thu Apr 24, 2014 8:55 am

When you stopped believing that he was real, what happened to that belief ?
Did it morph into a belief that he is not real
?

Yes, but reluctantly. Initially there were doubts. It wasn't a sudden thing.

Does that belief still exist but with another belief that the first belief is wrong ? (that is that there are now two beliefs)

Yes, in fact that does seem to be the case.

Did that belief cease to be a belief ? If this is the case, was it replaced with a new one that says "Santa is not real" ?

It's difficult to see what is actually in place, it feels buried, but it does seem as though all these beliefs are piled up somehow. There was a belief, then there was a (initially resisted) morphing into its opposite, which implies the added belief that the first belief was wrong.

Can we know of those beliefs that are embedded ?

Usually we don't know they're there. They are the automatic pilot, the programming which produces the "self" and its actions. They can be discovered.

What does it take to discover the existence of a belief ?

Examining what we think is unquestioningly true, taken as given. It's a loaded game though, the "me" that is doing the looking is made of those beliefs. The enemy knows the strategy!

Is examination of a belief sufficient to introduce the possibility that it will be 'dropped' ?

Yes - I believe this!!

Am I anywhere near a sighting of the signpost to the start line....?

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Re: close, but no cigar..

Postby vinceschubert » Thu Apr 24, 2014 10:21 am

Am I anywhere near a sighting of the signpost to the start line....?
Seeming is well and truly over the start line. You were before you arrived here. ..but don't ask about the finish line. i'm not sure there is one.
They (beliefs) can be discovered.
Yes, emotions are the symptoms that reveal them.
Here's what can happen to hasten the brain re-wiring. Whenever you Realize that an emotion has 'carried you away', celebrate the Recognition with a laugh.
The Recognition that you were 'lost' in the content of a thought stream, will come with an "Aha !"
This Recognition may happen some time after the event. "Oh, I was angry/sad/happy/elated/depressed/etc, because I was believing thought ABOUT suchandsuch." ...or it might come during the 'event', ..or even before it. "WoW !, I was about to get sucked into that story. Hahahaa."
Whenever it happens, laugh. Laugh out loud. A great big guffaw if you are alone (or aren't embarrassed by the presence others) If that isn't appropriate a chuckle or even a silent smile with eyes only, is fine. Whatever you do, just make sure that your stomach contracts. This has the effect of releasing Oxytocin (a happiness, hormone) which has the effect of neutralizing any stress hormones that would have been released by negative emotions. If you Recognize that you were feeling elated because of story, then still laugh, realizing that story was involved.
hardly slept the night before, worrying about this. Reminiscent of essay deadline pressure at Uni.
Was this the result of a story ? - then laugh !
SEEING the truth of this instead of trying to work it out and get a handle on it with the mind is the only way it's going to work.
Yes, and this SEEing is a discovery. Does discovery take effort or work ? RELAX.
Allowing, is how it happens.
The usual story of how I'm doing it all, I must do this, I better do that, still dominant of course,
yes, they will continue until they don't. Those stories are just thoughts. Can thoughts that are ridiculous be ignored ? Just let them pass by. Have they any more credibility than the sound of the refrigerator ?
A split second flash of fear as I wrote that last bit...
Firstly, laugh. Then invite it to deliver any message it wants. Then laugh again (even if it doesn't respond) Recognizing that there was a story behind it.
The SantaSelf belief only exists in a very young mind until it is understood that the story is impossible in the "real" world.
There may be a stage of doubt, then disbelief, but when it is seen that there is no possibility of it being true, the belief is simply an amusing memory.
Beautifully said. Resonates here.

love

vince

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Re: close, but no cigar..

Postby seeming » Thu Apr 24, 2014 11:23 pm

Seeming is well and truly over the start line.
Not sure why the anonymity - usual name is will.
Doubts and fears abound, then they don't, then they do. Programming, beliefs, story. Years and years of fruitless muddled seeking, then so simply ("too simply - can't be what's being pointed to, surely not, nah, I'm kidding myself...") this glimpse of obvious truth - no me other than as thought.
Whenever you Realize that an emotion has 'carried you away', celebrate the Recognition with a laugh.....
Whenever it happens, laugh. Laugh out loud. A great big guffaw if you are alone (or aren't embarrassed by the presence of others)....
Yes there's been quite a bit of this going on, sometimes accompanied by a "stop it". But also just laughter without any clear thought prompting it. Luckily I'm alone most of the time - I must look like a madman. I'm laughing writing it. I might actually BE a madman. Ok I'll take it - life has been strange and mostly delightful these few days. Thought says just don't get excited, it's just that post-retreat high that soon fades away. Maybe, but I haven't been on a retreat have I.
Just there was this simple, momentary seeing that the idea of "I" in actual present experience really does only occur as a thought. It's not seen all the time but it's known somehow and that's what's making me laugh all the time. It's too simple...
Thoughts all the time of course - wanting this to really take hold, fearing it might be just a nice buzz from ... well, from seeing it. Which it is!

Some changes noticed. I switch on the tv & radio way less, not that I was a habitual or indiscriminate user anyway, but pretty much everything has some degree of absurdity or banality, news, current affairs, all of it. I soon switch off.
I'm not rushing about getting onto the next thing. I'm a bit bemused really. I don't have this constant awareness that there's no me doing any of it, but I kind of know that I know.
The cat seems to like me more.
I don't know what to say. I need some time with this. I want to be sure I'm not just kidding myself - now there's a sentence to play with :-)
this SEEing is a discovery. Does discovery take effort or work ? RELAX.
Allowing, is how it happens.
Allowing has never been this one's strong suit, and a lifetime of compulsive worry and anxiety has left some rigid patterns. There's been quite a bit of undoing and opening over the last months, transformational breathing particularly effective in releasing blocked emotional energy. Also I'm getting old, and so much that seemed to matter is seen as unimportant.
Can thoughts that are ridiculous be ignored ? Just let them pass by. Have they any more credibility than the sound of the refrigerator
Content does of course get the upper hand, often, but spotted more frequently and nipped in the bud. No credibility, no, but phew, it's had it's way for so long this might be a long road. So be it. It's unfolding on its own same as it ever did.
The flash of fear has not returned. It was very strange - intense and quick. Not felt anything like it before - fear of course, but not in that way. Made me wonder whether I was in for a serious war with the ego - but that's just the kind of gory story I've got used to hearing along the way..
Thanks Vince. Real gratitude here.

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Re: close, but no cigar..

Postby vinceschubert » Sat Apr 26, 2014 1:14 am

G'day Will. (feels good to have a name - not sure why..)
i'm smiling (beaming actually) at your last post. ...and there is only one thing that needs attention. That is doubt thoughts. Are doubts anything other than just more thoughts. Do these thoughts deserve any more credibility than other non-useful thoughts ?
Yes of course, ingrained habits can take a while to let go. The laughing at the Recognition of them, aborts the completion satisfaction and accelerates the dropping of them. Some linger longer. Family of origin (and current family) are usually the last to arise. (i still 'lose it' with wife occasionally - a couple of years after 'gating'.)
...anyway, tell what you think is still missing ?

love

vince

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Re: close, but no cigar..

Postby seeming » Sun Apr 27, 2014 7:57 pm

Hi Vince
Are doubts anything other than just more thoughts. Do these thoughts deserve any more credibility than other non-useful thoughts ?
There are doubts and they do of course come as thoughts, such as "I think I'm losing it" . Normal life resumes and the rosy glow following the initial realisation of course subsides. The "IT" that is felt to have been lost is the realisation, but of course in fact refers to the rosy glow, the high. The realisation is that the sense of "I" is not necessary in actual present experience. It was very simply seen, natural, and although fleeting, it permeated everything for days.

The seeing of this, although radical, was subtle. No "pop".

Now I know that I know it, but find myself trying to induce that same seeing at will. A kind of mild desperation takes hold and there is contraction in the solar plexus - same as when "I" thoughts are foremost. I then wonder if anything has really changed. Am I now trying to hold onto a belief that there is no "I" other than as thought"?

I was believing that THIS - present experience - is what I am. With a nudge from you I saw that I do not exist in present experience. I saw this. Now "I" am undermining it. This doesn't make sense.

There is underlying the doubts still a feeling of trust. It's tenuous. And there is still a lightness present, a quiet delight arises, and laughter still comes up when it's remembered that I know "I" am only here as a bunch of thoughts. There is noticeably less obsessing over things - work & such. Fewer compulsive behaviours. Easy going actions. Insights into the mechanics of belief.

Habitual theorising, interpreting, justifying and speculating, gives the sense of not quite allowing this fully to take hold. Giving rise to doubt - where is the fabled Pop; there must be more. Further...
It is seen. "I" don't see it...
Did I see it clearly enough. Why can't I see it clearly all the time. Did I do enough damage to the belief in "I". Did it "take"....
I see I'm falling into the trap of expectations. Wanting everything to be different and all the thoughts to just stop.

Often, not always, these thoughts are noticed before attention goes spiraling off into them. I seem to be inducing them here by actually looking for doubts to answer your question :-/

Having just actually stepped back and read your question again - doubts can only be thoughts, and no, they deserve no credibility at all. Why doesn't this just STICK!?

Cancelling this stuff out as it arises is an altogether new kind of thing here and sometimes seems to require unaccustomed vigilance and unexpected effort..
tell what you think is still missing ?
There is wanting the programming to unravel faster, doubts to stop arising. Curiosity / excitement about where this is going.
I know I am getting in the way of it. I also know "I" am only a thought. Aaaargh!*#

- - - - - - -

This is all just bloody noise in the head. You know it, I know it. I'm laughing my head off, right now. I've quite literally gone mental and I know damn well it just comes and goes. Honestly, mostly I'm happy. Doubts? Yes. In the head. "I" have em. Right now, this moment, there's no one here who cares :-)

laughter, love, gratitude,
will

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Re: close, but no cigar..

Postby seeming » Sun Apr 27, 2014 11:20 pm

"curiosity/excitement about where this is going" -
I didn't mean to imply this is missing. Far from it :-)

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Re: close, but no cigar..

Postby seeming » Mon Apr 28, 2014 11:51 am

This thread isn't supposed to be a journal I know, but this is just rolling as it's rolling....

OK - no "pop". It's not an issue. It's more like a slow dawning, with storms.
The "I" with the expectations, who is wanting the nice experience, is the seeker.
The seeking habit has been in place a long long time, and carries a lot of luggage - ideas, beliefs, expectations. Is it going to stop dead? Unlikely. It's only momentum.

This morning, simple noticing again. Will is going about, driving, caught in traffic tailback. Up come the usual reactions on auto - frustration, impatience, irritation, along with the story - dammit I should've.... why can't people.... and so on. But all instantly seen as thought content and mildly amusing.
Suddenly the realisation - it's JUST this. Thought straining - how is it possible to say this better, exactly, with precision.
It isn't possible to say it at all. It's just THIS! THIS is all. Nothing here about Existence, Self, Being.
Nothing whatsoever. This!
(.... what's that idiot laughing at...)

Right now, as I write, the obviousness, the certainty, that what was seen and is seen now, cannot be unseen. A thought has been hovering - "ah, it's back..." NO NO NO. That's not it.

A belief is being uncovered, now - live! - "I have to explain everything".

But it's JUST this. There's nothing qualitative or quantitative or any other kind of ...itative in that statement. Nor any "it" at all.

Doubt is the label for the thought content insisting "something must BE this", then the spiral of further content which desperately tries to grasp at NOTHING to prove it's SOMETHING.

These thoughts come like storms, overwhelming. Then they don't.

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Re: close, but no cigar..

Postby vinceschubert » Mon Apr 28, 2014 12:36 pm

Suddenly the realisation - it's JUST this.
YES, Yes, yes. This was the portal that vince went through. This IS IT !
If you grok this, then there is no need for anything else. It IS what it IS. WHATEVER it IS, it is IT. By the time IT is seen, it is already finished. Only THIS is Now. ANY thought about it is about the past.
...and seeking, searching is only scratching the mosquito bite. Can the itch stop while scratching is going on ?
Surrender is the welcome acceptance of that which has already happened. Where is the choice to accept or not that which is finished by the time it is noticed ?

i will respond to the rest of your post(s) later...

love

vince

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Re: close, but no cigar..

Postby seeming » Thu May 01, 2014 7:24 am

Hi Vince,
It's been a few days.... Do you have any more questions for me?
Cheers,
Will

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Re: close, but no cigar..

Postby vinceschubert » Thu May 01, 2014 9:36 am

It's been a few days.... Do you have any more questions for me?
Sorry Will. i got a bit distracted.
Let's do a check of 'where we are' with these questions;
1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

2) "Describe your experience of the illusion of separate self, how it arises/disappears. Is that process always the same, or does it vary, and if so, how?"

3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

5) Do you decide, intend, choose, control events in Life? Do you make anything happen? Give examples from your experience.

6) Anything to add?

vince

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Re: close, but no cigar..

Postby seeming » Fri May 02, 2014 12:17 am

Sorry Will. i got a bit distracted.
No worries.
Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?
No. There is no separate self. There is an unquestioned core belief that the habitual thought "I", "me", refers to an actual separate entity existing within, or somehow as, this mind-body. This "me" seems to have free will, volition, and to be the location from which everything "else" is perceived.
"Describe your experience of the illusion of separate self, how it arises/disappears. Is that process always the same, or does it vary, and if so, how?"
It is a persistent and compelling thought story centred around the identified-with thought "I", "me". The illusion of "me" as a separate self only exists when the story is arising in the mind. Thoughts arise automatically, and habitually refer to and reinforce the story of "me" as this separate entity. It is always and only the content of thought, but is habitually believed to be real. In reality, that is, actual present experience, no "I" can be found anywhere other than as thought content.
How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.
A revelation. Yet simple, obvious. Fleeting. Now a kind of background knowing that wasn't there before. A couple of really light days, very little sense that I was "doing" any of what I was doing, a lot of laughter at how this could have not been seen. Obviously and experientially nothing exists outside the present moment. There is no self in present experience. No self exists or has ever existed other than as the content of thought. "I" cannot be found anywhere else, it is a deeply ingrained and unexamined belief, a persistent story, a thought to which other thoughts refer.
Here is a mind/body organism, entirely self functioning. It's incredible. Hilarious. How is it not seen?
All seeking is in the story. A character in the story hears a story about a better story where there's no suffering, and wants to be in that story instead.
Then the nice high passed - feelings of disappointment - "I had it but I'm losing it.." Then just as I caught "myself" getting rattled in traffic, Part Two! the sudden realisation - it's just exactly THIS and NOTHING else! More laughter and feeling great. Then a couple of days of feeling REALLY flat. Doubts, turmoil, conflict, impossible to remember any sense of what I'd SEEN, what I KNEW but now somehow couldn't find. It's like the self story called up all its heavy guns - persistent mental noise, temptation to spend money on consumer goods, it even seemed my tinnitus, already at torment level, got louder and more insistent.
Yesterday, today, now, all seems pretty ordinary, though easy going. There's plenty of "self"ing, but there's a kind of background ease most of the time which wasn't there before. It's like nothing has changed much, but there's this... background thing... sort of quiet all right-ness.
What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?
It was the suggestion that my "knowing that THIS must be what I AM" was not knowing, but just more story. I just looked out the window and saw that it was true - there is no "I" existing in or necessary to actual present experience - it's only a thought and nothing else. It was so simple. "Part two", in the traffic jam, I just don't know. It was sudden, fleeting, absolutely NOTHING but THIS. Anything I say is now just more story which wants it as an experience to go after again.
Do you decide, intend, choose, control events in Life? Do you make anything happen? Give examples from your experience.
No. In the story of course "I" am doing it all. Sometimes the story has the upper hand, but then it's seen through again. The knowing that this is all just going on without "me" is to do with this background sense of ease.
Anything to add?
There's the thought that there doesn't seem to have been a real shift. That it hasn't really been got. Strangely there's simultaneously the seeing of that thought and the knowing that what was seen can't be unseen. It just doesn't fit anywhere or anyhow into the existing structure of thought. Into the story. This prompts trust that all is well and whatever happens or doesn't will happen or not. It's a strange .... shift...? (laughter)
Letting it be, allowing, not having to explain - unfamiliar here, but seemingly, maybe, beginning to occur all on its own....
I seem to be realising it as I write it. Wonderful.
Love & gratitude Vince,
will

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Re: close, but no cigar..

Postby vinceschubert » Fri May 02, 2014 1:41 pm

Will, i need to get 3 others to confirm that you have passed through the gateless gate, then you will be invited to join a Facebook group where 'gatecrashers' support each other.
Other guides may have questions to clarify any areas where it may seem that there is residual identification.
There are many new 'skills' to be considered as you are entering a whole new world now.
Anyway, lots of this kind of processing happens in those groups, so "friend" me on Facebook and i will invite you to join.(when confirmation occurs)
https://www.facebook.com/vince.schubert

and a small doc worth reading here; http://liberationunleashed.com/PDF/Awakened.pdf

Oh, and once you have settled in, you might consider guiding others (kind of 'paying it forward') which i think that you'll be good at. There is mentoring/training for this, but the wisdom that SEEing reveals takes you most of the way.



vince

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seeming
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Re: close, but no cigar..

Postby seeming » Fri May 02, 2014 8:36 pm

Thank you Vince.
Walking on the hill this evening, some thoughts, feeling this ...newness. Seeing how assumptions, concepts, are so deeply stuck in place. I'd stopped at "everything is consciousness". That cool wise concept, unquestioned, taken as true & obvious, and the ongoing crisis of trying to make experience match the idea. But it's never far enough, as long as ideas remain. Even the baseline end-stop "certainty" that consciousness exists therefore THAT is what I AM is still just more story to hang on to as a way that "I" can finally "get it". As long as any notion of self is in the picture, what is always right here now remains elusive; yet what is right here now is just THIS. When this is realised, it is realised by no one!
All those groovy sounding words which season the search - emptiness, no-thing, the void - attempting the impossible, missing it by a mile, but so totally spot on.

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Re: close, but no cigar..

Postby vinceschubert » Fri May 02, 2014 10:18 pm

Morning Will.
All those groovy sounding words which season the search - emptiness, no-thing, the void - attempting the impossible, missing it by a mile, but so totally spot on.
Ha yes. Nothing has changed, but everything is different.

Just waiting for you to friend me on FB and we can get down to the 'real work'. This is just a start. Integrating it into daily life (brain re-wiring) continues...

love

vince

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Re: close, but no cigar..

Postby seeming » Fri May 02, 2014 10:32 pm

Hi Vince,
I don't have a Facebook account, so I guess I'd better get busy finding out how to do it..!
It's late here so might have to be in the morning, but I'm on it.
See you there.
love
will


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