Guide requet for Ilona

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Aragon
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Re: Guide request for Ilona

Postby Aragon » Fri May 02, 2014 10:55 pm

Hi Ilona,

Strangely, I seem to be back where I was many days ago but it seems a bit clearer now....
So what is hat you are in control of? What is not effortless? What is not on automatic? Give me examples.
I will come back to this, but safe to say, nothing as yet..
Tell me, is there a gap between witness and witnessed? Between awareness and the object of awareness? Is there a witness doing seeing?
No, I have been seeing this incorrectly. There is no witness. There is only sensation, feeling etc experienced in awareness. I have been noticing this mostly with sensation. The awareness seems to move around the body. It is not witnessed by the head, that is a delusion, In fact when I try to experience it with the head, it seems to create tension. I see this too with feeling, and a little with thoughts. Thoughts are the same but seem more evasive to 'see through'.

Of course I said, awareness moves round the body but there is no body, just a label of body. So actually there is just awareness of the objects of awareness arising in space. Those objects of awareness are connected by thought with labels, but in direct experience there is no obvious connection.

So it seems to me I am like little points of light lighting up in a dark empty sky.

Is there a gap between you and the seen?
The seen seems more problematic because it gives the illusion of space. But actually, that space in my head that I have talked about before, which I thought was awareness in a kind of fixed-self type of way, that just seems to be awareness of the seen. It feels again like my head is full of the world. There is no-one witnessing this - it's just the visual equivalent of sensations, maybe you could say 'images' held in awareness.

And again, there is no head, that is just a label. The image is now where my head used to be.
And when reaction comes up, what is behind? Is there a reactor? A witness of reaction? What is behind?
Since I saw this I have had no strong reaction. However, I can see that a reaction is a cocktail of various objects of awareness which arise together, seemingly affect each other and are labeled in totality as a reaction.

When I feel that sense of self, I remember and can now experience all the individual 'awareness-es'.

It seems easy to rest in the non-conceptual. Like time has gone. Worry has gone. Everything has gone.

Thanks again, interested to hear your thoughts....

.
... dancing in the ebb and flow of attention, more present than the breath, I find the origins of my illusions.... - Nirmala

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Aragon
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Re: Guide request for Ilona

Postby Aragon » Sat May 03, 2014 7:38 am

The thoughts seem to be the mental equivalent of sensation, nothing more....
... dancing in the ebb and flow of attention, more present than the breath, I find the origins of my illusions.... - Nirmala

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Ilona
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Re: Guide requet for Ilona

Postby Ilona » Sat May 03, 2014 7:46 am

Of course I said, awareness moves round the body but there is no body, just a label of body. So actually there is just awareness of the objects of awareness arising in space. Those objects of awareness are connected by thought with labels, but in direct experience there is no obvious connection.
Ok, so there is no body, but a label. Is there awareness? Looks like you took label awareness and made it into an object. :) is there sensation without awareness of it? Is awareness something separate from perceived? Or it's another label?

Put your hands together, feel the sensation. Can you find awareness that is separate form sensation? What is behind sensation feeling it? Is sensation happening in awareness? Is awareness happening in sensation? Or "awareness of sensation" is a label for one thing happening? So what is that moves around the body? Have a look.

Focus on focussing itself. With eyes closed sit for 15 min and watch movement of focus. Do you move it or it's moves by itself? What attracts focus/ attention? Is attention something you control? Are you attention?

Write what you notice.
Sending love.
Truth realized will set you free.
http://ilonaciunaite.com/book

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Aragon
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Re: Guide request for Ilona

Postby Aragon » Sat May 03, 2014 8:02 am

Hi Ilona,
Looks like you took label awareness and made it into an object.
Thanks for your response. I am not sure if I have just communicated badly. I didn't mean awareness moves around the body. I meant the delusion is awareness moves around the body. In direct experience, awareness just arises with sensation. Like sparks in space.

There is a sensation. Then there is another sensation. And another and another. It doesn't feel like awareness moves - though it did feel like that yesterday. It feels like each sensation is new, unrelated. Just happening.

Did we get our wires crossed, or is that how you took it?

Anyway, I will continue with what you wrote to see what I find out.

Thank you again..
... dancing in the ebb and flow of attention, more present than the breath, I find the origins of my illusions.... - Nirmala

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Re: Guide requet for Ilona

Postby Ilona » Sat May 03, 2014 9:28 am

Language can be tricky!

But have a look, is awareness ever not on? Does it arise and disappear?
Truth realized will set you free.
http://ilonaciunaite.com/book

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Aragon
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Re: Guide request for Ilona

Postby Aragon » Sun May 04, 2014 1:27 am

Update:

There has been a marked change in my experience today. It is a little hard to describe but it has felt much more sensation based. A sensation here, a sensation there, a feeling here, a feeling there, a thought, a sensation, like bursts of energy in space.

There is still thinking but this has not had the power to stay or convince and is, in a way, a bit like a burst in the sky too.

So my experience has been much broader, and more fluid.

There have been some strange sensations - in my upper lip, tension in the face, the tilt of my head - sensations I would never normally be aware of.

I saw a reaction occur too. I saw this fluidity vanish as the contraction started. Instead of the bursts in the sky, the physical contraction came on in the middle to upper body and the head started to take over the narrative. But then with a kind of recognition of this occurring, the broader awareness began to kick back in and the reaction subsided.

I have seen the head, the thinking, trying to take back over at times, but it hasn't happened, because it has been recognised as just thinking.

I also feel I haven't done anything today. Just these bursts of energy in awareness and this being that is me responding to the various situations demanded of me.

So it has felt very much like this has at least some elements of the self dispersing, though I am making no claims, and has not really stood any test of time. But I wanted to write about it as it has felt like something different and perhaps some progress.

I am just about to tackle your last questions.....
... dancing in the ebb and flow of attention, more present than the breath, I find the origins of my illusions.... - Nirmala

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Aragon
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Re: Guide request for Ilona

Postby Aragon » Sun May 04, 2014 2:28 am

But have a look, is awareness ever not on? Does it arise and disappear?
In just sitting, awareness seems to arise with sensation, with feeling, with thought, with mind object (memory, recognition etc). It arises and disappears. It feels like flowers unfolding, then disappearing.

But there is no moment when there is no awareness.

And sometimes it feels like there is an awareness of the space in which these things happen. Like there is an awareness of the breadth of experience, and awareness of being, an awareness of life happening, an awareness of mind maybe, as well as these more focused bursts that I experience. But sometimes I feel that is just another burst, albeit a predominant one. I haven't experienced it like that in normal active life today though.

Sometimes it feels like awareness is tuned into a thought process that was going on before the awareness focused in on it. Like something was going on without the awareness, but was experienced by the awareness.

I am getting a little confused as to what I am trying to get at here. Can you give me some help?
... dancing in the ebb and flow of attention, more present than the breath, I find the origins of my illusions.... - Nirmala

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Re: Guide request for Ilona

Postby Aragon » Sun May 04, 2014 10:44 am

There seems to be an awareness of the continuity of awareness?
... dancing in the ebb and flow of attention, more present than the breath, I find the origins of my illusions.... - Nirmala

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Re: Guide requet for Ilona

Postby Ilona » Sun May 04, 2014 12:49 pm

I can see that process is going great! Getting closer.
Have a look, what is behind awareness? Is there an awarer?
Is there a being that is aware? Is awaring something you do or it happens in it's own? Can you switch attention off?

Is being (verb) something you do or it's on by default?
Do you need to do anything in order to be, in order to be aware?

Is there a gap between perceiving, perceiver and perceived? Between knowing, knower and the known?

See what is true in experience.

Sending love
Truth realized will set you free.
http://ilonaciunaite.com/book

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Aragon
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Re: Guide request for Ilona

Postby Aragon » Mon May 05, 2014 12:21 am

Update (just about today):

Well the experience of yesterday was still there at times. But there were more times of thinking. And then tonight, it seemed like I was just noticing myself going through life.

So I wonder, what is noticing what?

There is this thing, this apparent body, going through life, making all these decisions and doing all these actions apparently in response to stimuli taken in through the senses, as well as information provided by the mind.

But there I am, observing this? So what am I?

And here a dilemma. Because I need to drop the Buddhist teaching which informs my thinking, even though it may well be correct. But it hangs there like a cloud.

It seems like there is something being aware, noticing. But I am not sure I would call it a being. It seems unaffected by what is happening. All the things, sensations, thought, feelings, thoughts and stuff, can play out their endless formations on their great stage, and this awareness just watches, unaffected.

Is that awareness just the sum total of all the other awareness-es? I thought it may be but I am not sure. Or is it some kind of impersonal self-awareness?

Sounds like I am making a self of awareness again, but that is how it seems, albeit an impersonal one, untainted by whatever arises.

I will just sit and explore this later

......................................................

I noticed also, those bursts I've been talking about... I'm really talking about sensations. Sensations seem to happen in bursts. But vision isn't like that, vision seems much more constant.

Walking around tonight I was aware of the beauty by sight, the sounds if the birds through hearing, (I don't seem to notice smells that much), the feel of the air (touch) and this is all apparently going on together, though my attention seems to get drawn to one thing after another. The awareness seems constant but I have a sense I can't be aware of all those things at once and so it is like lots of bursts that go to make up the greater picture.

...............................................................

I feel there is some drive within me that wants to sort this out which is akin to the spiritual seeker and that this drive may be preventing me from seeing. I think it is to do with being active and passive in attention and awareness which perhaps your questions of today touch on. I am going to look at them now, but it may be the morning before I respond again...

Thanks again, I will write soon...
... dancing in the ebb and flow of attention, more present than the breath, I find the origins of my illusions.... - Nirmala

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Aragon
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Re: Guide request for Ilona

Postby Aragon » Mon May 05, 2014 12:46 am

Have a look, what is behind awareness? Is there an awarer?
In eyes closed sitting, that noticing awareness I talked of seems to fuse with the objects of awareness so the awareness is in the object of awareness. The seeming duality seems to become one. It feels like behind that awareness there is just emptiness.
Is there a being that is aware? Is awaring something you do or it happens in it's own? Can you switch attention off?
Awareness seems to happen on its own. Attention seems to move to the object of perception with dominates because it is new or strong or something. I find it difficult to switch that awareness off but when I was really tired the other day, I felt it relaxed.
Is being (verb) something you do or it's on by default?
Do you need to do anything in order to be, in order to be aware?
Being is on by default. As is awareness. You don't need to do anything, though there is something in me that thinks you do!
Is there a gap between perceiving, perceiver and perceived? Between knowing, knower and the known?
If I hold something in my hand, there just seems to be awareness of sensation, or sensation in awareness. As soon as I label that object or recognise the distance between me and the object, or recognise it's in my hand etc. the gap appears.
... dancing in the ebb and flow of attention, more present than the breath, I find the origins of my illusions.... - Nirmala

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Re: Guide requet for Ilona

Postby Ilona » Mon May 05, 2014 8:46 am

In eyes closed sitting, that noticing awareness I talked of seems to fuse with the objects of awareness so the awareness is in the object of awareness. The seeming duality seems to become one. It feels like behind that awareness there is just emptiness.
Very good, yes, emptiness. Nothing there.
Look this way- awareness=object of awareness, they are not separate forms, form and knowing of it- one thing. There is no gap, thought about gap is not a gap. It's a thought ABOUT IT.

What is that thoughts come to? Where do they come from? Is there a thinker that thinks thoguhts?
Are you the thinker?
Are you the feeler?
Are you the breather?
Are you awarer, knower?
Are you liv-er of life?

What feels true?
Truth realized will set you free.
http://ilonaciunaite.com/book

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Aragon
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Re: Guide request for Ilona

Postby Aragon » Tue May 06, 2014 1:32 am

Hi Ilona,

Thanks for your message. I read it this morning and it immediately made sense. That feeling I had that as soon as I applied the label the gap appears.

I notice, say visually, there is just an image that appears, or a succession of stills, like a movie. And at first there is not even form, the form is created...then the labels are applied, attributes are given and then stories are added on top.

I can see that thought about gap is not a gap, it's just a thought about it. But that gap that seems to be experienced as a matter of perception, I mean at a very subtle level of thought, akin to labeling.

I have been playing with this today in my experience. Experiencing with and without the gap. It seems kind of obvious but bizarre at the same time.

If you will forgive me I am going to tackle your questions tomorrow as I just want to spend a little longer with this...

Hoping you are well....
... dancing in the ebb and flow of attention, more present than the breath, I find the origins of my illusions.... - Nirmala

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Aragon
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Re: Guide request for Ilona

Postby Aragon » Tue May 06, 2014 9:04 am

Seems very obvious how that gap creates separation and pain. Awareness of it as a thought seems to make it disperse and banish the separation.
... dancing in the ebb and flow of attention, more present than the breath, I find the origins of my illusions.... - Nirmala

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Aragon
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Re: Guide requet for Ilona

Postby Aragon » Tue May 06, 2014 3:10 pm

Hi Ilona,

Thank you again for your comments. Regrettably as I've reached this fascinating part of the journey, I haven't had any time to myself. And I have to confess I've been slightly irritable about that! But I have some own-time booked tonight, so I will report in then.

So just a quickie....

I can see very clearly at times, the separation, and how it comes about through thought. I have tried looking at my thoughts. They seem to have a form but I can't find it. I think they appear as words, seemingly out of no-where.

I feel that when that thought about the gap is not there, there is just experience. I am experience.

That seems less easy with thought.

I need to look at thought. Being in feeling or sensation seems fairly straightforward, but what does it mean (experientially) to be in thought without the gap. I am not sure if you get what I mean.

I'm not really asking you, I'm asking myself, but if you have any comments, please feel free to add!

I will report back tonight.

Thank you again...
... dancing in the ebb and flow of attention, more present than the breath, I find the origins of my illusions.... - Nirmala


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