Guide requet for Ilona

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Aragon
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Re: Guide request for Ilona

Postby Aragon » Wed Apr 23, 2014 1:20 am

Ilona, sorry, I haven't had much time for this tonight, I will do more in the morning, but here are my initial observations:
Is it body that experiences sensations? Or body is experienced?
With eyes closed, is there a body or there are sensations +labels like arm, foot, head?
When I close my eyes like that, it feels like I am space, am presence, and in that space/presence there are sensations. I get two kinds of sensations.

Ones like sparks, like electrical charges, like raindrops hitting water - so many of them - throughout the space that I am - like a firework display. Constant random sparks. Sometimes it's like they are in that space that is me. Sometimes its like they're lights flashing on and off on a circuit board in the space in my head.

And ones which are more constant. More physical. Have more substance. More density. These I label quite quickly and they give me a sense of the body.

The body is not there before the labelling starts. It arises as soon as I start to describe the sensations. I need labels as soon as I try to communicate the experience, and the body comes into being.

Before that, it just feels like space. A space in which sensations happen.
Observe these bodily sensations and tell me, where are they appearing, in actuality, not from memory.
Where does sound happen? Listen to distant sounds, are they happening in the body?
Open eyes, is seeing happening inside the head? Is there a head in seeing? Is there inside and outside in the view?
They appear in that space. Sometimes it feels like the space in my head but it isn't restricted like that. I seem to have spatial awareness in that space. There is direction - at least there is up, down, left and right.

Distant sounds happen in my mind, in the space in my head. I think its the same space but it feels more in my head. Sometimes, its like I can see them on a screen in my head. When I had a bath tonight, I felt I could feel the warmth in that space. I could feel the warmth in my head.

When I open the eyes I feel seeing is happening inside the head. Like on a screen in the head. Outside has become inside.

I'll write more soon.

Thank you!
... dancing in the ebb and flow of attention, more present than the breath, I find the origins of my illusions.... - Nirmala

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Ilona
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Re: Guide requet for Ilona

Postby Ilona » Wed Apr 23, 2014 7:52 am

How big is your head?
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Aragon
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Re: Guide request for Ilona

Postby Aragon » Wed Apr 23, 2014 3:06 pm

How big is your head?
Well as I sat, with eyes closed, it felt like that space was in my head but I couldn't tell you how big. It was not small and felt quite big but it felt associated with the sensations in my head which - though I didn't appear to be labeling - I knew on some level was my head and seemed to be restricting its size.

However when I relaxed that space seemed to grow bigger so that the sensations in the body were a part of it too.

I thought the answer to your question would be 'infinite' but that is not how it felt. It still felt something was surrounding it, the borderline between the two being very blurred. It felt like it was being surrounded by nothing, if that makes sense.

However, I think the space is getting bigger as I am more aware of it. Sounds, thoughts, sight, even feelings now seem to take place in that space, like ripples in water - the space is much bigger than them.

In the last few minutes, it has started to feel like the whole world is happening in the space that is me, which feels a little strange. A bit like I am a room in which everything takes place, though room feels wrong because the boundaries to that space are not that concrete.

Sight feels the strangest because it is more constant and it tails off at the edges of the capability of the eyes. The eyes feel like a door to that space inside of me.

I am not quite sure if I have answered your question or not?
... dancing in the ebb and flow of attention, more present than the breath, I find the origins of my illusions.... - Nirmala

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Aragon
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Re: Guide request for Ilona

Postby Aragon » Thu Apr 24, 2014 1:21 am

Well sitting with eyes closed tonight - eyes closed is really helping because I'd been mainly doing this eyes open - I felt like I was space, presence, awareness and in me arose everything - thought, feelings, sensations, sounds, sights, smells, tastes, touch...

.... And it did occur to me if the outside had come inside, where was the outside? And when I looked there was no outside. It feels like I am inside everything and everything is inside me - its all gone a bit sci-fi I'm afraid....

....But to summarise I'd say I feel like I am awareness/space./presence in which everything arises, initially as sensation, then labeling occurs which brings the world into being, and on top of which stories unfold. I can see the labeling occur in that space, and the stories unfold....

....Though sometimes, for whatever reason all that goes and thinking takes over again....

Wishing you well!

.
... dancing in the ebb and flow of attention, more present than the breath, I find the origins of my illusions.... - Nirmala

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Re: Guide requet for Ilona

Postby Ilona » Thu Apr 24, 2014 6:59 am

Good work Aragon! I can see you are really looking and that is great!
.... And it did occur to me if the outside had come inside, where was the outside? And when I looked there was no outside. It feels like I am inside everything and everything is inside me - its all gone a bit sci-fi I'm afraid....

....But to summarise I'd say I feel like I am awareness/space./presence in which everything arises, initially as sensation, then labeling occurs which brings the world into being, and on top of which stories unfold. I can see the labeling occur in that space, and the stories unfold....
It can be described like that, I get what you mean, it's not sci-fi.
Look closer now, is there I? Is there space? Is sense of being, presence personal?
What is here without concepts?

Is THIS, that is here now contained in some kind of container, are there boundaries at all? Is there a line, that separates this from not this? Is there anything separate in this?

Explore deeper and write what you find,

Sending love.
Truth realized will set you free.
http://ilonaciunaite.com/book

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Re: Guide request for Ilona

Postby Aragon » Thu Apr 24, 2014 3:19 pm

Hi Ilona,

Thanks again for you response. Well may I start by not answering any of your questions but with some musing on today's eyes-open experience!

It feels like a perceptual change. I have vague reminiscings of hallucinogens.

Visually sometimes it seems like a screen I am looking at internally. There is space between me and the screen. There is not a feeling of being one, but rather the opposite, a feeling of separation. Just images on the screen, nothing personal.

There feels like a relaxation of the senses. When the outside comes in there is no need for the straining to see. What is seen is already there, so there seems to be a relaxation, a kind of introversion, a closing.

Then again, I look at the trees and feel a great affinity. Aren't they just images like I just described as on the screen, nothing personal - but I have a strong response to their beauty.

And then I look at the sky, so vast - how can that be inside of me? But I contain it so easily! I must be really big too.!

It still feels there are borders, like one of those pictures with a haze-like border put round it> I wonder how it could be infinite. Can the mind really get its head around that? But today I am busy whilst looking, on the move with family life.... Tonight, when I have some time alone, I will sit and explore your questions further....

.
... dancing in the ebb and flow of attention, more present than the breath, I find the origins of my illusions.... - Nirmala

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Re: Guide request for Ilona

Postby Aragon » Fri Apr 25, 2014 12:31 am

Further reflections from today as I've been going about my everyday life:

- Looking at the body as being inside when its outside seems bizarre. Has a feeling of detachment. Seeing it respond to an ever changing flux of stimuli and conditions. Inhabiting it and not inhabiting it at the same time. Wondering what it is really, without the human perceptional apparatus.

- Seeing the sense of 'me' formulating within this awareness. Seeing the awareness as not-personal but the labeling and story-making that arise within it make the 'personal story'.

- Feeling there is nothing outside the awareness, that everything is contained within, that all that exists is what is within that awareness right now. That there is no time, only now, no space, only here - that only what is let into that awareness has any meaning. Again feels bizarre, how does that relate to compassion.

- Feeling a separation between awareness and events happening inside the awareness. Like there is a watcher, but maybe not, maybe just being aware. Makes me feel I'm missing something as still feeling this separation

.... off to do some eyes closed practice...
... dancing in the ebb and flow of attention, more present than the breath, I find the origins of my illusions.... - Nirmala

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Re: Guide request for Ilona

Postby Aragon » Fri Apr 25, 2014 1:26 am

Hi Ilona!

Hoping that you are well.

Here is my report on my eyes closed practice!...
Look closer now, is there I? Is there space? Is sense of being, presence personal?
Is THIS, that is here now contained in some kind of container, are there boundaries at all? Is there a line, that separates this from not this? Is there anything separate in this?
The sense of space, awareness, being, is not personal. The labeling and stories make it personal. But in my eyes-closed-looking tonight I felt that this presence had another layer to be pulled back. I felt that it is more like there is nothing, there is emptiness, and in that emptiness arises awareness of something.

I am not 100% about this but that is how it felt. Before I felt it was awareness, as it were, waiting for something to arise within it. But I think that awareness is always awareness of something. In that awareness I felt separation. Even that expansive feeling of being aware of space, is awareness of something, though I am not sure what.

When I let go of the idea of awareness and entered into the nothingness I kind of vanished into bliss. There was no me, no watcher - like there was in awareness.

Here there is no container, there are no boundaries, no lines, nothing that separates this from not this, nothing separate at all. Just nothing, I can't really give it words.

I went there and stayed there and was happy there for I am not sure how long and I had to kind of drag myself back. I write rather hesitantly, as if i were mad...

Sending love....
... dancing in the ebb and flow of attention, more present than the breath, I find the origins of my illusions.... - Nirmala

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Re: Guide request for Ilona

Postby Aragon » Fri Apr 25, 2014 4:03 pm

Woke up like all that was a dream, felt like a kind of revert back to before, but actually, think I'm feeling a little looser to life. Feeling of everything inside has crept back in this afternoon but feeling more integrated and less strange somehow. No major reactions today but there's plenty of time yet!

.
... dancing in the ebb and flow of attention, more present than the breath, I find the origins of my illusions.... - Nirmala

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Re: Guide requet for Ilona

Postby Ilona » Sat Apr 26, 2014 7:37 am

Hi Aragon,

Sorry for delay with answer, I had a couple of busy days..
Great to see that you found the emptiness! It's not madness, it's coming back to sanity :)

When reactions happen, see what is behind them, what do they stick to, what do they happen to. Don't expect reactions not to happen, they will, as long as there are still unexamined beliefs. Reactions point the way to what is still here that needs to be looked at.

Is there a witness?

Good work, let this settle and write what you notice different in daily life, ordinary experiences and usual situations.

Sending love.
Truth realized will set you free.
http://ilonaciunaite.com/book

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Re: Guide request for Ilona

Postby Aragon » Sat Apr 26, 2014 9:56 am

Hi Ilona, thanks for your reply. This is just a quick update from my phone: I feel a desire to cling to the experience of awareness/emptiness rather than letting it unfold. I oscillate between being in involved in the drama and witnessing it. Reactions are less and whilst in them I have a sense of their futility - they almost seem comical and this understanding seems to accompanied by a sort of bliss of freedom. I would like to do some more sitting alone but not finding time at the moment due to our little one! Maybe tonight! Thank you again...
... dancing in the ebb and flow of attention, more present than the breath, I find the origins of my illusions.... - Nirmala

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Re: Guide request for Ilona

Postby Aragon » Sat Apr 26, 2014 3:22 pm

Another quick report:

Just feel like I really tasted something for the first time. I mean really tasted it. So exquisitely delicious. Can't get my head around why that would be the case so not questioning it.

I am very short on sleep and normally would be extremely irritable but have spent the day with my very tired talkative wife and really quite enjoyed it.

Everything feels incredibly normal but somehow softer and easier.I feel a bit like I've lost my personal agenda but it is way too early to state that as fact.

Hoping you are well & sending you a big 'thank you'...

Will get to your questions in time..

.
... dancing in the ebb and flow of attention, more present than the breath, I find the origins of my illusions.... - Nirmala

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Re: Guide request for Ilona

Postby Aragon » Sat Apr 26, 2014 7:20 pm

Another update!

1. Felt a drop of rain land on my head. It proceeded something like this: sensation, labeling - 'ice cold, dot, head' - then 'raindrop', proceeding to 'its starting to rain', 'need to get daughter home quick'. It was very strange how it unfolded in what seemed to be quite a bit of time, but perhaps wasn't, and how I saw it happening.

2. Reaction - the first one I think I've had - maybe a small one this morning - (which is pretty amazing if you knew the inside of my head) - both were annoyance/irritation with my eldest daughter, this morning with a failure to show any interest in getting ready for her skating class and making us late, and this evening failing to respond to my asking then telling her not to run in the house as she might knock over her younger sister - which she then did, leading to my reaction. Tired kids, tired parent, (we're all a bit short on sleep with the youngest being unwell) lost perspective maybe? Anyway, whatever the reason, it was there, not quite sure how to get to the beliefs behind it.

.
... dancing in the ebb and flow of attention, more present than the breath, I find the origins of my illusions.... - Nirmala

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Re: Guide requet for Ilona

Postby Ilona » Sat Apr 26, 2014 9:16 pm

There is nothing wrong with reactions happening, and nothing wrong with teaching kid to behave..
It happens. It passes away. When same reaction happens again and again persistently, then it's something to investigate. Otherwise, no need to try to solve non existent problems.

It's a bit like sky- it's always wide open and peaceful, always sun shine above clouds. And sky does not care if clouds are small and white or big and heavy dark. If lightning strikes, sky has no preference, all is unfolding within it. Clouds can be compared to thoughts. Thoughts can colour the experience in different colours.

When you look at thoughts, where do they come from? Are you the thinker? Is voice in the head the thinker? Is there one?
What is that thoughts are appearing to?

Keep your reports coming!
Truth realized will set you free.
http://ilonaciunaite.com/book

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Aragon
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Re: Guide request for Ilona

Postby Aragon » Sun Apr 27, 2014 7:57 am

Hi Ilona, thanks again for your response....

I think with that reaction, it felt like before. I was in the reaction. Yes, it passed quickly and I didn't hold on to it, but I have been experiencing watching the unfolding of the story (in the recent past), and here I was very much immersed, unaware of the story, but deep in it, and I wasn't expecting that..

It has felt a bit like the sky in the last 24 hours. Things happenning within the sky. With so much space around reactions, they seem inconsequential. But this reation was not like that.

Thoughts still make stories. I am not that aware of them. They are in the 'field' or the 'sky' but I still get lost in them. Actually, it's not that I get lost in them. It's more like the awareness of sky is not so present and the cushioning space dissappears. Why is this and where does it go? - I am not so sure, though it quickly returns. Just this reflection seems to be making thoughts more visible in the 'sky'.
When you look at thoughts, where do they come from? Are you the thinker? Is voice in the head the thinker? Is there one?
What is that thoughts are appearing to?
I have seen thoughts arise. They just seem to appear on to of labeling. Or out of the sky, resting over it, superimposed upon it. I don't think there is a thinker but their associative or story-telling nature leads to the impression of a thinker. This is much more visible when the awareness is there. The knowing is from the awareness. The thoughts seem just to arise, often saying what is already known. Their nature seeming to be to label, conceptualise, communicate?

After a decent night's sleep and a rested body, thoughts seem less prevalent today.... I will give this more attention today...

Wishing you well!

.
... dancing in the ebb and flow of attention, more present than the breath, I find the origins of my illusions.... - Nirmala


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