In need of a "rough" guide

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nemecsek
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Re: In need of a "rough" guide

Postby nemecsek » Mon Mar 24, 2014 4:51 pm

Mark,
Thank you for your help. A lot is moving here.
1. 'I feel the need to experience truth'.
Ok. It is not a "need", it is an ego desiderata.
I ALWAYS experience truth. I didn't see it before.
I split life in two parts: one when an observer is present and one when it isn't. A kind of observer is ALWAYS there observing life expressing itself through me. Sometimes it is very "present", most of the time it isn't.
Anyway the observer can do nothing in either cases: it can observe but not interact to change the mind thoughts and actions.
Please consider this (not quickly) and then tell me: what are you referring to when you say 'I'?
Alex is a body, Alex is a mind, Alex is just a machine. If the mind lets it, Alex can even observe himself, but if and only if the mind will allow this.
In the present moment if the mind will let it, Alex can remember himself to observe, but what he is observing is kind of automatic. It is just a reaction to a mind decision. This decision cannot be discussed or reversed by the observer.
"I" is a collection of labels. "I" am Alex, "I" am a programmer, "I" am tired/happy, "I" believe or don't believe. "I" is a collective label to identify all Alex' features: body, rules, habits, needs, urges, feelings...
There is nowhere this "I", only perhaps in some brain circuits where experiences and memories are stored.
While I write this the skin is "shrinking". My fingers are flying on the keyboard and watching them it is like they are somebody's else. Colors are very vivid.
What am I? There is nothing there. I need to go deeper in this.
(I don't feel the "pop" to tell me I'm cross the gate and I feel disappointed.)
The "voice" inside is low, telling me what to write to impress you. It is difficult to be impartial and non-judging.
The voice is not always there. I just walked out from the office through the company and there was no voice: everything looked so "bright", so "colored".
I cannot even talk about an "observer" because it is so different from the observer I experienced during meditation.
To complete what I wrote two days ago: I can identify now 3 observer modes:
1) the observer as an absence (most of the time): the body/mind is working on its own accord without me even being into the moment. The internal voice is dominant.
2) the observer as a presence experienced during meditation: it is an attempt to be here and now, with the voice checking and calling me back to presence when I'm distracted by something. On Saturday I discovered that, contrary to what I believed, type 1 and 2 are very close cousins, and type 2 is worth nothing. What have I been doing for years during meditation?
3) the new-observer completely detached from what I'm doing. Just experiencing.
My mind is inventing dialogs with you, my body is keeping me anchored to pure and very basic sensations with this "ants crawling on me" feeling all over my skin.
I feel like ready to cry without a reason. It is powerful. No, there is a reason: tears comes when I try to affirm that the most important part of myself, what I called "Alex", is made of smoke and illusion.
Rationally I'm more than ready to affirm this. Intellectually I know I will come to see this because I read it plenty of times before. But my body reacts with tension and tears.
It is getting stronger each time I put my attention on these words.
Mark, I'm writing a lot of this stuff and reading it as a fresh thought. I was really not going to write it when I began the post. It came out like an automatic writing. And it definitely "rings a bell".
Please could you describe how you sense this observer.
Sometimes the new-observer becomes strange indeed. It is like it is there but the quality of observation is not the one I can reach during meditation: it is not like "I want to take care and be attentive of what is happening" but a far simpler "It is happening alone". It is very sporadic but it happens. I see that it happened even before but I didn't noted it.
It is like to watch something without trying to define if the picture is color or black/white.
I feel that everything was happening even before, but it was not noted. How is it possible I never did? Being intellectual I would use the paradigm of the fish searching for the ocean. When told what the ocean is, it is kind of sad it is so silly. I AM disappointed it is so silly.
There is a word, a label: "observer". When you take that word away, what are the sensations felt?
As I told you the new-observer is not the one I was used during meditation. That (type 2) was just another mind figment and this is now self-evident.
When "I" experience this new-observer snapshots it is like the new-observer can be removed without any change in perception. It is really observing. It is like I'm watching without interfering and without judging. It is not a real observer. It is the watching.
I'm probably parroting now, "I know" what to write because I already read it. But I cannot find a better definition at the moment.
You felt that you could not avoid doing this journey
About the clarification you gave me on question no.5, my "cannot avoid it" is based of no-free-will concept. It is now just "mind shit", something intellectual I couldn't care less. Please forget it. It has nothing to do with what I feel now. It is out of topic.All together it was just to show you how smart "I" am.
A sense of 'Life invading Alex' here..., a hint of losing control, perhaps?
When I experience the new-observer mode I am not in control of anything. I'm watching a movie on TV. I cannot even choose to scratch my nose. There is nothing I can choose to do.
It is creepy because my mind is not allowing this and trying to pull me back to standard mode.
I'm going on. I begin to feel why you lose everything, and, yes, I begin to be afraid of this because it is a jump in the dark.
Thank you Mark for your valuable help.
Nice evening
Alex

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ElPortal
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Re: In need of a "rough" guide

Postby ElPortal » Mon Mar 24, 2014 8:44 pm

Hi Alex,

Many thanks for all that. Yes, clearly plenty is going on! There is no point in fighting it: it is happening anyway.
I begin to feel why you lose everything, and, yes, I begin to be afraid of this because it is a jump in the dark.
This is totally normal. How can the passage into the unknown not be accompanied by some racing heartbeat etc? Alex, welcome the fears like angels who have come to bring you in. It's ok. Let their sensations in the body be there until they go, and the same every time they recur. They are not an enemy.
(I don't feel the "pop" to tell me I'm cross the gate and I feel disappointed.)
Yes, the realisation that this is not winning some spiritual lottery with starbursts and fanfares: it's Life in its total ordinariness as well as its total awesomeness. This is why expectations can be obstacles.

Before we look at any more of the expectations you mentioned previously, I would like to consider the following:-

You said a few things about 'I':-
I ALWAYS experience truth. I didn't see it before.
then
Life is ALWAYS expressing itself through me.
(I love the 'ALWAYS'!)
and
What am I? There is nothing there. I need to go deeper in this.
These are three very exciting observations. But let's look more deeply into this 'I' and this 'me'. I want to know whether you can find it in reality (not intellectual reasoning: stay with the present experiences and sensations, like a small child). Take your notebook and please make notes:-

1. Sit with your eyes closed and feel the 'aliveness' of just being Alex. Can you feel this? Now, when you take away that label 'Alex', what is left? Please try to describe the sensations. Is the label 'Alex' necessary for these? What is there besides Life just 'happening here'. Can you prove (in experience) that there is any 'me' there separate from the sensations? Now how about the label 'observer'? When you take away that label, is there anything left except for the experiencing?

2. Now open your eyes and look at an object. eg a chair. Alex - seeing - chair. Can you sense any Alex distinct from the experience of the seeing? Is seeing distinct from 'chair'. Where are the lines separating these things? Where does Alex become seeing and seeing become chair? Now take away the labels 'Alex' and 'chair', and tell me how is the experience now? Tell me WHERE the experience seems to be?

If more strong emotions or reactions come, just give them time to settle a little before you respond.

Looking forward to hearing from you.

Cheers

Mark
"I": a simple case of mistaken identity.

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Re: In need of a "rough" guide

Postby nemecsek » Tue Mar 25, 2014 9:07 am

Mark,
you thank me after reading my stuff YOU are helping me and I cannot thank you enough for the time and help you are giving me!

I will make the exercise you proposed and continue to answer the questions.

Here are some visible changes in my daily life.

I find myself very often in this "new-observer" state. I don't need to remember myself to be present because I switch automatically in this mode without any effort. I can see very clearly when an ego thought arises and I just "choose" to abandon it. No judgement involved, a kind of "tranquil apathy". It is like watching with new glasses what was always there.

The voice in the head almost disappeared. I need to search for it to hear the normal dialog, and it looks like it makes a big effort to be heard. It was a tiger made of paper and crashed at the first wind blow... The voice has lost its self-esteem :-)

Waiting to see if these changes are temporary or final, I will accept them for what they give me, without any hope.
The global sensation in these moments is to be back home.

Thank you.
Nice day
Alex

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Re: In need of a "rough" guide

Postby ElPortal » Tue Mar 25, 2014 11:01 am

Hi Alex,

Yes, I look forward to your reports from the two exercises - just in the present experience please.
I find myself very often in this "new-observer" state
.

Who is it who finds himself there? And whom is the self that is found there? What is this 'new-observer' when the label and concept are dropped?

Cheers

Mark
"I": a simple case of mistaken identity.

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Re: In need of a "rough" guide

Postby nemecsek » Tue Mar 25, 2014 11:34 am

Mark, thank you for your quick reply.

I'm using "I" because it is awkward to use the passive form (instead of "I'm happy" => "Happiness is experienced"). Most of my English sentences are built starting with "I". It is more lack of language skill than anything else.

The difference between the "meditative observer" and the "new-observer" is now very clear.
In the past I was the "meditative observer" who spent effort to be present. There was an effort. There was Alex behind or something that told to be Alex. I cannot replicate it now but I know it was like this. If I need to put a label I see it now as a mind trick to deceive me into thinking there was an Alex and Alex was in control.

The new-observer is something completely different: "something" is experiencing. There is no need of an Alex behind the observer. The idea there is Alex or a soul behind is kind of silly. No effort at all, no judgement involved: it is. I could imagine a cat is living like this, checking for movement that could be a bird, but without spending a thought to assume how to catch it or where to find one. "New presence" is happening.

My description is so unsatisfactory. Trying to avoid parroting but without finding words for it.

What is impressing me more is this "I-knew-it-already" feeling. There is nothing new here, but all is new at the same time.

I love to watch my hands typing like they are somebody's else. They move so elegant, so fast.
They write what "I" am not even thinking. I speak and I'm in awe of what comes out of my mouth without the need to prepare what I'm saying.
How is possible so few are impressed how automatically we live?

I will let you know about the exercise.

Cheers
Alex

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Re: In need of a "rough" guide

Postby nemecsek » Wed Mar 26, 2014 10:44 pm

Mark, there are no news.
Trying to escape from being intellectual but not so much success.
Nice evening
Alex

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Re: In need of a "rough" guide

Postby ElPortal » Thu Mar 27, 2014 6:19 am

Hi Alex,

Thanks for staying in touch.

Just do the exercises as well as you can, just answering each question with what is coming up in your experience/sensations in this present moment. Remember that there is no wrong or right answer - just what is happening.

Best wishes

Mark
"I": a simple case of mistaken identity.

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Re: In need of a "rough" guide

Postby nemecsek » Thu Mar 27, 2014 8:18 am

Thank you for your patience, Mark.

It looks like that after the initial two-day burst all settled down. I've been very busy (and lazy, to tell the full truth). Voice in the head is there, low, but it is incredible easy to shut it up. I cannot even talk about en effort on this side.

Ego inflated a couple of days ago and I needed my complacency to watch it as I watch my 5yo daughter exhibiting her new learned whistle skill. It is kind of embarassing :-)

The last exercise is difficult because of the "blank" there is when I try to experience sensations without putting labels. It looks like my mind begins to comment out of boredom. It is possible I will need some time to recalibrate the "sensations knob". It has not been so used lately.

Nice day
Alex

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Re: In need of a "rough" guide

Postby ElPortal » Thu Mar 27, 2014 9:42 am

Hi Alex

Ok I understand.

But let's not forget that Earnestness = Ripeness -> Seeing.

Of course in the exercises some words will be needed to try to describe what is going on, but we are talking about what happens when we drop the labels which were there before. Words can only ever grope and fumble around what is really going on (which is really going on ALL the time!). If thoughts come up in the exercises, you can describe them as: 'the thought that.... (this)', 'the idea that... (that)', 'the worry that...(this)' etc...

Looking forward to hearing the report from the exercises, when you are ready.

Cheers

Mark
"I": a simple case of mistaken identity.

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Re: In need of a "rough" guide

Postby nemecsek » Fri Mar 28, 2014 8:07 am

Hi Mark.

The obstacles are higher than I thought.
It looks like the step to move to the new questions is too big.

Too much rationalization ("If nature invented Alex, it means there is a reason, he cannot be just a passive observer of an automatic machine") and I cannot see a way out of it. At the same time it is relatively easy to experience this "new observer mode" where Alex is just something not necessary for my body to survive.

It is incredible: "I" can easily accept the truth of two opposite logics at the same time ("Alex doesn't exist, he is just a figmnent of mind" and "Alex must exist and be active in the process of decision"). Both look so valid, but both don't "ring a bell" when analyzed from the point of view of sensations.
That's why I'm asking for another way. According to your experience, is there an intermediate step easier to reach?

I don't know if it is a good idea to let people read Gateless Gatecrashers and books like this. They put lot of pressure on what are the "good" answers (even when you write more and more that there are no good or bad answers).
The truth is I am very conditioned by the reading I did... I am expecting to write you: "No, Alex is not necessary", and on the next post "Alex never existed".

In the meantime my automatic machine will go on with the exercises...
Thank you
Have a nice day
Alex

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Re: In need of a "rough" guide

Postby nemecsek » Fri Mar 28, 2014 8:07 am


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Re: In need of a "rough" guide

Postby ElPortal » Fri Mar 28, 2014 11:59 am

You feel like this, or you think like this?
If the former, how does this feel?

I appreciate that this is a struggle for the mind. There are other places where philosophical and intellectual discussions can take place, but here it is about what FEELS REAL. This alone is the compass.

If this sets the bar too low for 'you' to get under, that is fine. This could be taken up at a later date.

If anxieties are coming up, please tell me and we can look at those.

Otherwise just do the exercises and report back.

Cheers

Mark


Cheers

Mark
"I": a simple case of mistaken identity.

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Re: In need of a "rough" guide

Postby ElPortal » Fri Mar 28, 2014 11:59 am

(taken up = continued)

M
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Re: In need of a "rough" guide

Postby nemecsek » Fri Mar 28, 2014 1:07 pm

Thank you Mark.
"I" 'll do my best.
Have a nice weekend.
Alex

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Re: In need of a "rough" guide

Postby nemecsek » Tue Apr 01, 2014 7:34 am

Hi Mark, I'm back.
My "excuses machine" (my self) would like to tell you why I'm so late answering back, but I will restrain from this.

I don't know how intellectual are my discoveries but there is something, and definitely it was under my nose all the time.
1. Sit with your eyes closed and feel the 'aliveness' of just being Alex.
I didn't understand what you mean with this "aliveness".
Yes, it is something always there. There are no sensations involved, just a kind of "blankness". It is neutral, just watching, touching, seeing.
It is experiencing without using labels "table" or "heat" or "soft". It could be the basic experience before labels (parroting here, but it is a good description).
At the same time I'm not sure this is what I am going to look at. During the experience the internal voice keeps telling what to write you later.
when you take away that label 'Alex', what is left? Is the label 'Alex' necessary for these?
Removing the label Alex nothing changes. It is like before.
Alex is not necessary at all. "Something" is typing, producing thoughts, acting, scratching the nose, moving from an unconfortable position, sensing the cold, breathing, creating the urge to open the fridge to ease the hunger. Alex is definitely not necessary. Alex is the collection of these behaviours, a shortcut to describe them as a set.
What is there besides Life just 'happening here'
Nothing.
Can you prove (in experience) that there is any 'me' there separate from the sensations?

This is impossible to prove. The only thesis to support Alex's existence is the thought "Alex exists". But it is based on nothing else than itself. A loop.
Now how about the label 'observer'?
I would change it with "witness". An observer is kind of "active", while a witness is just right there when something happens.
It is strange indeed: life is happening, the witness is there and believes to be the movie director of what is happening, but he isn't. There is no power to change the movie shot, nobody is listening to his orders.
Intellectually this clashes with my idea of need in nature: nature abhors unuseful things and all that exists has a reason to be. So the question "Why nature invented a me at all?" hunts "me".
Even searching for sensations I cannot hide my need to understand under the carpet. It is very strong.
This need to understand is obviously an attempt to stop this quest, just an excuse, like my mind is trying to support as long as possible any way to invalid the pure experience.
. Can you sense any Alex distinct from the experience of the seeing?
Even if the voice continues to affirm that Alex is there, NO, I cannot sense him. No more than sensing the presence of angels or the soul.
Now take away the labels 'Alex' and 'chair', and tell me how is the experience now? Tell me WHERE the experience seems to be?
If referred to watching, the experience moves away from the head where the watching has always been located. I cannot express better than this.
It is. There is a witness that happens to recognize sensations, that's all. The witness doesn't label them. There is a wholeness involved.

Mark, this post surprises me. My internal voice told me plently how to excuse myself for not finding anything in the last 3 days. I discovered that there is something just now, writing you. It is a surprise. It is like my fingers are writing down autonomously what boiled under my level of conscience.
This schizophrenia is surprising.
You feel like this, or you think like this?
What I means is really "I am defined by the thought about myself". The face is created by this "me" thoughts.
Forget it, I wanted to "impress" you with this :-)

Have a nice day. Thank you once more for the time you are giving me.
Alex


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