Looking for someone to guide me, please !

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Freddi
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Re: Looking for someone to guide me, please !

Postby Freddi » Mon Mar 24, 2014 7:57 pm

Hi Jadoo,
When I read aloud, and prefix 'my' it looks like there is something added which is not there in the raw experience, it is adding an assumption.
Are these added assumptions affecting life at all? Or are they more like a piece of useless software?
When we say 'self' that too refers to a sound, and that only refers to thoughts, but there is no self within the thoughts. There is no self behind it, there seems to be nothing.
That’s right, nothing, nada, zippo, diddly squat. No Jadoo, never has been, never will be. How does it feel?

So … we looked for the ‘I’, and found nothing, we looked for the ‘me’ that knows there is no ‘I’, and again found nothing.
We could keep going: Is there a ‘super-me’ that know that there is no ‘me’, that itself knows there is no ‘I', and so on. This is what is called “Turtles all the way down”.

Where are you at, Jadoo? Would you say you have seen through the illusion of the separate self fully and completely? Are there any sticking points you'd like to explore at this point?

Warm wishes,

Fred
"To come to your senses you have to go out of your mind" - Alan Watts

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Jadoo
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Re: Looking for someone to guide me, please !

Postby Jadoo » Tue Mar 25, 2014 2:58 pm

Hi Fred !
Are these added assumptions affecting life at all? Or are they more like a piece of useless software?
The added assumptions are not helping either way, they are not required. And untrue in direct experience.
That’s right, nothing, nada, zippo, diddly squat. No Jadoo, never has been, never will be. How does it feel?
There is no Jadoo, only ‘thoughts about Jadoo’ appear.But thoughts cannot create something which isn’t there.
So … we looked for the ‘I’, and found nothing, we looked for the ‘me’ that knows there is no ‘I’, and again found nothing.
We could keep going: Is there a ‘super-me’ that know that there is no ‘me’, that itself knows there is no ‘I', and so on. This is what is called “Turtles all the way down”.
There is no one to know there is no I, only thought, and that is not I.
Where are you at, Jadoo? Would you say you have seen through the illusion of the separate self fully and completely? Are there any sticking points you'd like to explore at this point?
At times there is feeling that there is no self, and at other times it just feels like it was (with self) in the olden days.

On a positive note there is not much of analysis, who is analysing who (and who is there to analyse and be analysed ? )
There is also a level of understanding that thought/events/ happening / situation cannot ‘cause’ an I to be created as thought cannot create anything, except more thought.

Whats next please guide me as usual….Im little lost what to do and where I am ?

Thanks a lot for your unflinching patience and dedication, it is deeply appreciated.

Warm Wishes,
Jadoo.

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Freddi
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Re: Looking for someone to guide me, please !

Postby Freddi » Tue Mar 25, 2014 4:42 pm

Hi Jadoo,

(1)
There is no Jadoo, only ‘thoughts about Jadoo’ appear.But thoughts cannot create something which isn’t there.
This talk of ‘thought’ sounds a bit conceptual. Let’s have more emotional honesty from now on, to go beyond the mind stuff. Can you go into your feelings and let me know what comes up when you see that there has never been a Jadoo in charge of Life? Stay with this statement and let it work its way through you.

(2)
At times there is feeling that there is no self, and at other times it just feels like it was (with self) in the olden days.
Can you describe the ‘feeling that there is no self’ and then describe the ‘feeling like it was (with self)’. Just write in your own words what you see. Stay with your actual present experience, again no talk of ‘thought’ allowed here. I want some emotional openness, and there are no right or wrong answers.
There is also a level of understanding that thought/events/ happening / situation cannot ‘cause’ an I to be created as thought cannot create anything, except more thought.
This sounds more like a logical deduction than a living reality that has been seen. Reasoning and deduction can only bring you to more concepts, and even if these are factually correct, they are still only theory, and not practice. This will only lead to frustration, like looking at the map of Paris without being there. The truth, reality, aliveness, which is always tapping us on the shoulder and whispering in our ear, can only be accessed via the sensorial realm, here and now.
In other words, this is really about getting out of your mind and coming to your senses.

Before we move on to the next stage , I would like you to look deeply into these and let me know what comes up.

Warm wishes,

Fred
"To come to your senses you have to go out of your mind" - Alan Watts

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Jadoo
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Re: Looking for someone to guide me, please !

Postby Jadoo » Wed Mar 26, 2014 6:17 pm

Hi Fred !
This talk of ‘thought’ sounds a bit conceptual. Let’s have more emotional honesty from now on, to go beyond the mind stuff. Can you go into your feelings and let me know what comes up when you see that there has never been a Jadoo in charge of Life? Stay with this statement and let it work its way through you. 
The feeling is somewhat of peace, calm and stillness (somewhat), need to stabilize and see what shows up.
Can you describe the ‘feeling that there is no self’ and then describe the ‘feeling like it was (with self)’. Just write in your own words what you see. Stay with your actual present experience, again no talk of ‘thought’ allowed here. I want some emotional openness, and there are no right or wrong answers.
I will need some time to see as this is not happening that much as of now (thats good :) ) ….except that in feelings there Im not able to see much difference between the two as of now......dont know if that makes sense.
The truth, reality, aliveness, which is always tapping us on the shoulder and whispering in our ear, can only be accessed via the sensorial realm, here and now. 
Yes am doing that and will let you know what comes up.....

I'm not writing too much as when the focus is on feelings and not thoughts there is somehow much less to say...., perhaps I ve never learnt to look this way so may take some getting used to)

With much gratitude and warm wishes,

Jadoo.

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Freddi
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Re: Looking for someone to guide me, please !

Postby Freddi » Wed Mar 26, 2014 6:56 pm

Hi Jadoo,
Fred: Can you describe the ‘feeling that there is no self’ and then describe the ‘feeling like it was (with self)’. Just write in your own words what you see. Stay with your actual present experience, again no talk of ‘thought’ allowed here. I want some emotional openness, and there are no right or wrong answers.
Jadoo: I will need some time to see as this is not happening that much as of now (thats good :) ) ….except that in feelings there Im not able to see much difference between the two as of now......dont know if that makes sense.
That’s OK, take your time with this. It would help to write down in a notebook, as I have recommended to you before. Just let the feelings come up. I am interested to know what you call ‘the feeling that there is a self’ as against ‘the feeling that there is no self’, in your own words, as plainly as it shows up.
I'm not writing too much as when the focus is on feelings and not thoughts there is somehow much less to say...., perhaps I ve never learnt to look this way so may take some getting used to)
As soon as we leave the conceptual realm, words fail. They cannot not come close to describing or explaining the crazy and stunning unfolding of life.
As often as you can, take your notebook and ask yourself ‘what is real here and now?’ Go through the 'slice of life' exercise your did earlier, this will help you to go back to what is true. Practise looking at the sensations, the emotions, the perceptions (smell, see, touch, taste). Let them all come up and flow and notice them. When a thought comes, acknowledge it as 'the thought that ...' and let it pass. Always come back to 'what is true, here and now'.

When you have answered the first question (the feeling that there is a self><the feeling that there is no self), we will move on to the next stage.

Warm wishes,

Fred
"To come to your senses you have to go out of your mind" - Alan Watts

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Jadoo
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Re: Looking for someone to guide me, please !

Postby Jadoo » Thu Mar 27, 2014 7:01 pm

Hi Fred!

Slice of life - breathing, seeing, texture of keyboard, feeling heat, feeling confused, texture of face on hand, computer, voices, feeling of sitting in the chair, body on top of foot, sounds in the distance, sensation in the right upper arm of pulling, Tiredness, some despair, sensations in stomach, song in the head, tightness in chest, doubt, some anxiety whether im doing this right, more breathing, body moving...

The feeling that there is no self is peaceful and detached and a kind of blankness to it, a kind of distance from thoughts they are somewhat ignored, but not ignored in regular sense but more like just completely not listened to, a feeling like there is no one 'being' the thoughts

The feeling that there is a self, is when there is restistance, a feeling that things should change, like feeling sad and disadvantaged.

Will do all that you have told me and have continued with the note book! (Did not earlier know there was a difference between thoughts and feelings and now getting the hang of it slowly thanks to you :) ) and will come up to clearer answer to your question.

Am somewhat not clear where I am now, but am sure will 'surface' in a better place so as to speak....Will continue to contemplate and give you my feedback, thanks so much as usual for your support.

Warm Wishes,

Jadoo.

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Freddi
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Re: Looking for someone to guide me, please !

Postby Freddi » Fri Mar 28, 2014 7:03 am

Hi Jadoo
Thank you for your honesty and openness. I really appreciate it.
The feeling that there is a self, is when there is resistance, a feeling that things should change, like feeling sad and disadvantaged.
Are these any more than labels, interpreting the actual perceptions and sensations in your moment to moment experience?
Who or what labels these ‘things’ as bad and ‘needing a change’?
Your actual present experience may show up different perceptions, like a knot in the stomach area, a feeling of tiredness behind the eyes, tightness in the chest, maybe tears. These are all observable facts. Who or what qualifies and labels these experiences as a ‘feeling sad and disadvantaged’? What would be left without all this labelling?

When you do your ‘slice of life’ exercise, and remember you can do it whenever you have a moment (even for a few seconds, you can get out of the mind stream and come back to your thinking, your tactile sensations, etc), always ask yourself ’Is there anything other than this? Can there be?’

I wonder if you are still harbouring some expectations about this process, Jadoo?
I’m sure that you have read all sorts of accounts and listened to ‘others’ about how this 'should be'. At the beginning of our exchange you mentioned ‘the end of suffering’. Is ‘Jadoo’ still looking for the end of suffering? For a better life?
Can truth be anything other that what is unfolding right now, in front of your eyes?
Is there anything really other than this'? Can there be?
Isn't anything more than what is happening right here and now just a thought or a label or a concept?
Again, be honest with me, stay with these questions and look deeply. A quick answer will almost always be a mind answer. Let me know what comes up and if there are still some expectations you are holding onto.

Warm wishes,

Fred
"To come to your senses you have to go out of your mind" - Alan Watts

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Jadoo
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Re: Looking for someone to guide me, please !

Postby Jadoo » Fri Mar 28, 2014 6:39 pm

Hi Fred !

Thank you for your precious and valuable input, the same is very profound please give me a day will absorb the same and come back to you tomorrow.

I am really grateful for your compassion and sincere dedication.

With much appreciation,

Jadoo.

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Freddi
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Re: Looking for someone to guide me, please !

Postby Freddi » Fri Mar 28, 2014 6:41 pm

No problem, Jadoo, take your time, no rush.

Warm wishes

Fred
"To come to your senses you have to go out of your mind" - Alan Watts

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Freddi
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Re: Looking for someone to guide me, please !

Postby Freddi » Sat Mar 29, 2014 3:48 pm

Hi Jadoo

When I said:
for a few seconds, you can get out of the mind stream and come back to your thinking, your tactile sensations, etc
You will probably have guessed that I did not mean to type 'come back to your thinking but to your present experience ;)

Fred
"To come to your senses you have to go out of your mind" - Alan Watts

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Jadoo
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Re: Looking for someone to guide me, please !

Postby Jadoo » Sat Mar 29, 2014 8:15 pm

Hi Fred !

Thank you for your posts it is very much appreciated.
Are these any more than labels, interpreting the actual perceptions and sensations in your moment to moment experience?
Who or what labels these ‘things’ as bad and ‘needing a change’? 
Your actual present experience may show up different perceptions, like a knot in the stomach area, a feeling of tiredness behind the eyes, tightness in the chest, maybe tears. These are all observable facts. Who or what qualifies and labels these experiences as a ‘feeling sad and disadvantaged’? What would be left without all this labelling? 

Yes there is much resonance and much practice of your above words. Not only has it been useful, but more than that enabled a direct connect with facts you mentioned above.
When you do your ‘slice of life’ exercise, and remember you can do it whenever you have a moment (even for a few seconds, you can get out of the mind stream and come back to your thinking, your tactile sensations, etc), always ask yourself ’Is there anything other than this? Can there be?’
Yes have been doing the same find it very useful.
I wonder if you are still harbouring some expectations about this process, Jadoo? 
I’m sure that you have read all sorts of accounts and listened to ‘others’ about how this 'should be'. At the beginning of our exchange you mentioned ‘the end of suffering’. Is ‘Jadoo’ still looking for the end of suffering? For a better life?
I think I was at some level, although not consciously – it seems to be fading (though slowly..) There is now a feeling that all things will arise and it doesnt make sense to think that something will stop (like you said in the beginning its like never having bad weather...which doesnt make sense).....also importantly is there anyone for whom things will (or wont) change ...or is there just direct experience (or arisings) or sensation, thoughts, sights, sounds, and nothing else (and no one else :) ).
Is there anything really other than this'? Can there be?
Isn't anything more than what is happening right here and now just a thought or a label or a concept?
Yes getting accustomed to the same.
Let me know what comes up and if there are still some expectations you are holding onto
When there is contemplation on feelings etc seem to be fine at other times also there isnt really too much thought on I, is it natural to be contemplative all the time or are these also just arisings, and no one to really observe them ?

With much gratitude and warm wishes,

Jadoo.

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Freddi
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Re: Looking for someone to guide me, please !

Postby Freddi » Sun Mar 30, 2014 4:47 am

Hi Jadoo

I like to read what you say about connecting directly with facts (what IS). When you come away from the mind stream, you can really feel the buzz and tingle of the moment.
Is it natural to be contemplative all the time or are these also just arisings, and no one to really observe them ?
Can anything that happens ever be ‘unnatural’? Who or what would label what is happening as unnatural or natural? If contemplating is what is happening right now, great, that is what is happening. If it stops, then great too. Who is there to contemplate anyway, or more importantly to get attached to it continuing or ending?
There is now a feeling that all things will arise and it doesnt make sense to think that something will stop (like you said in the beginning its like never having bad weather...which doesnt make sense).....also importantly is there anyone for whom things will (or wont) change ...or is there just direct experience (or arisings) or sensation, thoughts, sights, sounds, and nothing else (and no one else :) ).
I love that you are seeing that it is our thinking that labels things and events as ‘not good enough’, ‘needing a change’ etc. Despite our thinking, life will continue life-ing in every way it cares to. It unfolds as it unfolds, differently in each (apparent) case. Sometimes it’s a walk in the park, sometimes it’s a bumpy ride. Seeing is just a beginning, much conditioned thinking will be questioned, and will fall away like a row of dominoes.

Here at LU we do like to ask a bunch of confirmatory questions, just to make sure there is no stone left unturned, that no area needs ‘mopping up’, as it were. Once you have answered these and both you and I are happy, then I will invite other guides to have a look to see if any area needs looking at.

So here are these questions:

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?
 
2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, how it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now. 
 
3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.
 
4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look? 
 
5) Please talk about deciding, intending, choosing and control, describing the process as best you can. How do these things happen? Do you make them happen? Give examples from experience.
 
6) Anything to add?

Again, take your time, no rush. Stay with the questions and let them permeate through. Make sure you answer from actual experience rather than what you think may be the right thing to say. Be as detailed and precise as you can. And make sure you give actual examples from your daily life for Question 5.

I look forward to your answers.

Warm wishes,

Fred
"To come to your senses you have to go out of your mind" - Alan Watts

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Jadoo
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Re: Looking for someone to guide me, please !

Postby Jadoo » Sun Mar 30, 2014 7:25 pm

Hi Fred !

Thanks so much for your post....will contemplate and revert tomorrow.

With warm wishes and gratitude,

Jadoo.

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Freddi
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Re: Looking for someone to guide me, please !

Postby Freddi » Sun Mar 30, 2014 7:26 pm

Thanks for letting me know, Jadoo

No problem, take your time to contemplate ...

With warm wishes,

Fred
"To come to your senses you have to go out of your mind" - Alan Watts

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Jadoo
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Re: Looking for someone to guide me, please !

Postby Jadoo » Mon Mar 31, 2014 12:19 pm

Hi Fred !

Thank you for your post !
Can anything that happens ever be ‘unnatural’? Who or what would label what is happening as unnatural or natural? If contemplating is what is happening right now, great, that is what is happening. If it stops, then great too. Who is there to contemplate anyway, or more importantly to get attached to it continuing or ending?
Yes thats true! It all seems so clear and yet there is something holding back as it were. One moment it is seen that what is is, and there is nothing else, at other times there seems to be a ‘me’ solidly there....In view of the same should I proceed to answer the questions anyway? Or do you feel I should spend some time learning to be in touch with what is......

Please guide me I will do accordingly.

With much gratitude and warm wishes,

Jadoo.


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