Looking for someone to guide me, please !

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Jadoo
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Re: Looking for someone to guide me, please !

Postby Jadoo » Tue Mar 18, 2014 7:19 pm

Hi Fred !
Could this be simply because this feeling of aliveness that we are all familiar with has always been labelled as “Jadoo”? Is it any more than habitual thinking?

So far, we are struggling to find the self as the doer, the self as the controller, the chooser, the thinker, the experiencer, the body.

Would you say that you have SEEN through the illusion of self?
If so, how does it feel to see this?
Yes it does seem like habitual thinking.

I would like to contemplate and digest all that you have mentioned and will come back tomorrow as have been very occupied with few things in the past few days.

Will get to the core of things and reply tomorrow......!

Thanks as usual for the invaluable guidance,

Jadoo.

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Freddi
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Re: Looking for someone to guide me, please !

Postby Freddi » Tue Mar 18, 2014 7:21 pm

Hi Jadoo

Thanks for this. I look forward to hearing from you tomorrow.

Fred
"To come to your senses you have to go out of your mind" - Alan Watts

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Jadoo
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Re: Looking for someone to guide me, please !

Postby Jadoo » Wed Mar 19, 2014 9:35 pm

Hi Fred !

Jadoo Said : I feel resonance and yet feel there is Identification and am somewhat confused
Fred Said : Could this be simply because this feeling of aliveness that we are all familiar with has always been labelled as “Jadoo”? Is it any more than habitual thinking?

Would you say that you have SEEN through the illusion of self? 
If so, how does it feel to see this? 
Its really difficult to express, whether the habitual thinking has 'worn down', or is it hibernation. There are less thoughts of past and future and feeling lighter and then there are times when it feels that Im 'in the body' again.

I seem to have seen that there is no I, yet feel that sometimes there is an I, and again when I look its not there.

To be honest I havent really been able to spend time contemplating for as much time as I should have due to lots of things 'happening' at work and family and all at the same time – I m kind of guilty of breaking the momentum !

I feel need to spend next few days getting in touch with myself and see if there s anything im doing wrong...... :(

As usual thank you for your great patience and thank you for all the time and effort which you devote it is very much appreciated,

Jadoo.

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Freddi
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Re: Looking for someone to guide me, please !

Postby Freddi » Thu Mar 20, 2014 7:28 am

Hi Jadoo
there are times when it feels that Im 'in the body' again
What is that ‘I’ that is ‘in the body again’? Can you describe it? Is it experienced or thought? Does it have a colour, a shape? And what, in your most immediate experience (not received theory), is ‘the body’? Can you see an entity there, separate from everything else that is going on?
I feel need to spend next few days getting in touch with myself and see if there s anything im doing wrong
How would ‘getting in touch with myself’ look or feel like? What is your self? Can that self do anything wrong? Question all the assumptions that show up as you answer this, Jadoo. Is there a ‘self’ standing apart from what is, that can go wrong when the rest goes right?

Is seeking for ‘the end of suffering’ still going on? How would this be like? Can you describe how this ‘end of suffering’ would look like, compared with what is happening right now, in your most immediate experience, and avoiding thought labyrinths? Is there anything really other than this? Can there be? Can reality ever be different from what is happening right now?

Warm wishes,

Fred
"To come to your senses you have to go out of your mind" - Alan Watts

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Jadoo
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Re: Looking for someone to guide me, please !

Postby Jadoo » Thu Mar 20, 2014 8:13 pm

Hi Fred,
Fred Said : What is that ‘I’ that is ‘in the body again’? Can you describe it? Is it experienced or thought? Does it have a colour, a shape? And what, in your most immediate experience (not received theory), is ‘the body’? Can you see an entity there, separate from everything else that is going on? 
The 'I' is only thought of, stories that are thought of, and when believed in, gain strength. There is no colour or shape, its just a voice in the head, with corresponding sensations. In the immediate experience the body is only vision of hands, feet, stomach, which is the common factor which appears along with all the other sights and sounds, its always there. There is no entity separate from everything else, other than when thought says so.
Fred Said : How would ‘getting in touch with myself’ look or feel like? What is your self? Can that self do anything wrong? Question all the assumptions that show up as you answer this, Jadoo. Is there a ‘self’ standing apart from what is, that can go wrong when the rest goes right? 
Getting in touch with myself would be contemplation, to think, whci would be more thoughts about thoughts. The self is the set of thoughts which seem to appear but actually seem to refer to no particular thing. That self cannot do wrong as it does not exist in a real sense. There seems to be no self standing apart from everything else.
Fred Said : Is seeking for ‘the end of suffering’ still going on? How would this be like? Can you describe how this ‘end of suffering’ would look like, compared with what is happening right now, in your most immediate experience, and avoiding thought labyrinths? Is there anything really other than this? Can there be? Can reality ever be different from what is happening right now? 
Yes I think very subtly there must is a seeking for 'the end of sufferring'. This would be like the negative emotions or feelings dont affect me. Even though I know it doesnt make sense, but I am guessing this may be subtly there. When everything is ok, it looks like things should be as they are and need not change, like now. When things are problematic, there is a subtle feeling that they should change.

At the same time it is getting clearer that all the problems are due to thought labyrinths and the believing in them, and the reality is that the things will be as they will be, only am struggling to know the 'difference' if any.

Q: When the thoughts are believed in, who is the one who is 'beleiving' ? And when the belief stops, 'who' is the one that stops beleiving? (Hope the question is not out of context).

(I will spend next few days on pondering maybe Sunday)

Thanking you for your dedication and sending love,

Jadoo.

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Freddi
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Re: Looking for someone to guide me, please !

Postby Freddi » Fri Mar 21, 2014 7:46 am

Hi Jadoo,

Thanks for your detailed and clear answers.
The 'I' is only thought of, stories that are thought of, and when believed in, gain strength. There is no colour or shape, its just a voice in the head, with corresponding sensations.
Is ‘I’ a voice in the head? Is that it?
 There is no entity separate from everything else, other than when thought says so
Is there an entity separate from everything else when thought says so?
I think very subtly there must is a seeking for 'the end of suffering'. This would be like the negative emotions or feelings dont affect me.
So we have an imagined future when ‘negative emotions don’t affect Jadoo’. This implies that in present experience ‘negative emotions do affect Jadoo’. Is this statement true? Question it. Don’t leave any stone unturned here. Who or what is qualifying, labelling the emotions as negative? What is an emotion? Is it a sensation felt in the body or is it a thought? Can a body sensation be negative in itself? If it is a thought or interpretation, what is its reality?
Who or what is affected by this negative sensation? Can you contemplate that question? I obviously don’t mean go down thought labyrinth here, but really investigate the thought as it presents itself, question all its assumptions. Take your time with this, stay with these questions, and tell me what comes up.
When things are problematic, there is a subtle feeling that they should change.
Again, who or what is qualifying these things as ‘problematic’? What makes a ‘thing’ problematic? Is that interpretation or reality?
Q: When the thoughts are believed in, who is the one who is 'believing' ? And when the belief stops, 'who' is the one that stops believing?
Good place to do some investigation here. Who is there to believe or not believe thoughts? And when the belief stops, can you see anyone who stops believing? Who or what could choose to stop believing?
only am struggling to know the 'difference' if any
I don’t understand what is meant here - the difference between what and what?

Warm wishes,

Fred
"To come to your senses you have to go out of your mind" - Alan Watts

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Jadoo
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Re: Looking for someone to guide me, please !

Postby Jadoo » Fri Mar 21, 2014 7:41 pm

Hi Fred,
Fred Said : Is ‘I’ a voice in the head? Is that it? 
There are thoughts of 'I' (which is like a voice in the head or thoughts), and there is a sense of being-aliveness which seems to be being labeled as 'I'.
Fred Said : Is there an entity separate from everything else when thought says so? 
When though says so, there seems to be an entity with a past and a future, and is seeming to have a seamless, continuous experience. When examined intellectually there is no seperate entity, but this is where Im somewhat stuck.
Fred Said : So we have an imagined future when ‘negative emotions don’t affect Jadoo’. This implies that in present experience ‘negative emotions do affect Jadoo’. Is this statement true? Question it.
Don’t leave any stone unturned here.

Who or what is qualifying, labeling the emotions as negative?
Thought is qualifying and labeling the emotions.

What is an emotion? Is it a sensation felt in the body or is it a thought?
Emotion seems to be a a thought, accompanied by a sensation felt in the body.
Can a body sensation be negative in itself?
No, a body sensation in itself is not negative. There are body sensations all the time and they are mostly ignored or harmless.
If it is a thought or interpretation, what is its reality?
Emotion seems to be more of a thought (with an accompanying interpretation/belief). The thoughts of I and the thoughts about emotions seem to be feeding off each other and bolstering each other.

The reality is that although there are :

a) Thoughts seem to point to a separate person.
b) Emotions which are thoughts qualifying the 'state' of the person
c) A thought which belives this is causing a coherent person,

The above are all thoughts alone, and point to the reality which we are but the thoughts are not the reality.
Who or what is affected by this negative sensation?
The thoughts (like mentioned above) seem to be affected by the negative sensation and the belief in the thoughts keep the show moving.
Can you contemplate that question?

I obviously don’t mean go down thought labyrinth here, but really investigate the thought as it presents itself, question all its assumptions. Take your time with this, stay with these questions, and tell me what comes up. 

Again, who or what is qualifying these things as ‘problematic’? What makes a ‘thing’ problematic? Is that interpretation or reality? 

Q: When the thoughts are believed in, who is the one who is 'believing' ? And when the belief stops, 'who' is the one that stops believing?

Fred Said : Good place to do some investigation here. Who is there to believe or not believe thoughts? And when the belief stops, can you see anyone who stops believing? Who or what could choose to stop believing?

There is no one to believe or disbelieve thoughts, except another thought. When the belief stops, there is no one who stops believing.



Jadoo Said only am struggling to know the 'difference' if any

Fred Said : I don’t understand what is meant here - the difference between what and what?
What I mean is that is there any difference between 'knowing' that I is just a thought and that the one who knows ('me') is also a thought and there is no one really, and 'living' from that perspective, or is just the same?

As usual, your immense effort and patience are deeply appreciated,

Jadoo.

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Freddi
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Re: Looking for someone to guide me, please !

Postby Freddi » Sat Mar 22, 2014 8:23 am

Hi Jadoo,
When examined intellectually there is no separate entity, but this is where I’m somewhat stuck
We are not interested in intellectual examination here. That is precisely what we are aiming to avoid.
So you say you are stuck. How so? Are you sitting comfortably? Are you breathing? Can you step outside of the room? Outside of the house? Can you smell the air, see the sky, touch the grass, hear children play? Then you are not stuck.
You are trying to think your way to liberation. You are trying to get out of an imaginary cage with the very tool that created the cage. Get out of your mind, and come to your senses.

I want you to go and sit quietly somewhere and note down for me everything that is happening. Give me a ten minutes slice of life. Just what is happening, in your own words and your own time. Sounds, smells, sights, sensations, tactile sensations. If a though comes, acknowledge it, welcome it, note it too (the thought that…), but let it pass. Take your time, really do this, because all that happening: THIS IS IT!

Then go back to this statement ‘I’m stuck’ and see how it sounds. Who is stuck?
The above are all thoughts alone, and point to the reality which we are but the thoughts are not the reality
What is the reality which we are? Can you describe what you see? The word ‘table’ is a sound, which points to a concept, which points to something in reality. When we say ‘self’, what is that pointing to? What is the reality behind? Can you see anything?
What I mean is that is there any difference between 'knowing' that I is just a thought and that the one who knows ('me') is also a thought and there is no one really, and 'living' from that perspective, or is just the same?
Who is it that knows that there is no ‘I’? Can you look deeply into this and see what you find? I’m not after the one size fits all ‘I is a thought’ answer, I would prefer a deep look in your present experience here. What is ‘me’? Can you see anything behind that?

Warm wishes,

Fred
"To come to your senses you have to go out of your mind" - Alan Watts

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Jadoo
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Re: Looking for someone to guide me, please !

Postby Jadoo » Sat Mar 22, 2014 9:15 pm

Hi Fred !

Thank you for your detailed reply I really appreciate the same, kindly give me till tomorrow so I can contemplate on the same an revert.

With warm wishes and heartfelt thanks,

Jadoo.

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Jadoo
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Re: Looking for someone to guide me, please !

Postby Jadoo » Sat Mar 22, 2014 9:15 pm

Hi Fred !

Thank you for your detailed reply I really appreciate the same, kindly give me till tomorrow so I can contemplate on the same an revert.

With warm wishes and heartfelt thanks,

Jadoo.

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Jadoo
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Re: Looking for someone to guide me, please !

Postby Jadoo » Sat Mar 22, 2014 9:15 pm

Hi Fred !

Thank you for your detailed reply I really appreciate the same, kindly give me till tomorrow so I can contemplate on the same an revert.

With warm wishes and heartfelt thanks,

Jadoo.

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Freddi
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Re: Looking for someone to guide me, please !

Postby Freddi » Sat Mar 22, 2014 9:21 pm

Thanks for letting me know, Jadoo

I look forward to your post tomorrow ...

Fred
"To come to your senses you have to go out of your mind" - Alan Watts

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Jadoo
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Re: Looking for someone to guide me, please !

Postby Jadoo » Sun Mar 23, 2014 8:08 pm

Hi Fred,
We are not interested in intellectual examination here. That is precisely what we are aiming to avoid. 
So you say you are stuck. How so? Are you sitting comfortably? Are you breathing? Can you step outside of the room? Outside of the house? Can you smell the air, see the sky, touch the grass, hear children play? Then you are not stuck. 
You are trying to think your way to liberation. You are trying to get out of an imaginary cage with the very tool that created the cage. Get out of your mind, and come to your senses.
Yes I am sitting comfortably and able to breathe and step outside and smell the air, see the sky, touch the grass, hear children play. So I am not stuck.
I want you to go and sit quietly somewhere and note down for me everything that is happening. Give me a ten minutes slice of life. Just what is happening, in your own words and your own time. Sounds, smells, sights, sensations, tactile sensations. If a though comes, acknowledge it, welcome it, note it too (the thought that…), but let it pass. Take your time, really do this, because all that happening: THIS IS IT!
Sound of computer buzzing, keyboard, my breathing, the feel of the fingers on the keyboard, the legs on the carpet, the sounds of breathing, songs in the head, sights of the room, of the computer, strain on the back, sensation of foot on foot, eyes moving and sights moving, elbow on desk, photos in the room, feeling warm, feeling the stomach rise and fall with the breath, thoughts about planning what to do next, and thoughts about sleep, sensations of hands touching face, sounds of switches clicks, feeling rested, more breathing observed, thoughts about tomorrow, thoughts about what im about to drink or eat, body moving, hands moving, body moving, lights seen , telephone seen, sensations in the back, some thirst, more sounds outside of clinking glass in the hall,
thoughts about the next part of your post....as so on !

What is the reality which we are? When we say ‘self’, what is that pointing to? What is the reality behind? Can you see anything?
For certain it is only possible to say that thoughts are not who I am, the sensations are not who I am, it is really difficult to say what I am or if there is any I and yet things go on....
Who is it that knows that there is no ‘I’? Can you look deeply into this and see what you find? I’m not after the one size fits all ‘I is a thought’ answer, I would prefer a deep look in your present experience here. What is ‘me’? Can you see anything behind that? 
There is no one who knows there is no 'I' as that would be more concepts. Life goes on and me is just a label put on groups of things like thoughts, sensations.
What is the reality which we are? Can you describe what you see? The word ‘table’ is a sound, which points to a concept, which points to something in reality.
Not so clear what this means kindly guide me please :)

Thanks so much for your persistent and invaluable guidance,

Jadoo.

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Freddi
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Re: Looking for someone to guide me, please !

Postby Freddi » Sun Mar 23, 2014 8:40 pm

Hi Jadoo
Thank you SO much for your detailed response, and your ‘slice of life’ - really enjoyable to read that look into your present experience!

I noticed that in your 10 minutes ‘slice of life’ there was only one reference to ‘my’. It felt real. Just life life-ing. Can you re-read it out loud with everything prefixed with ‘my’. How does that feel? Can you see a difference? Which feels more natural? Is ‘I (my)’ any more than a mistaken labelling for all this present experience? Tell me what comes up.
Yes I am sitting comfortably and able to breathe and step outside and smell the air, see the sky, touch the grass, hear children play. So I am not stuck.
Thank you ;-)
For certain it is only possible to say that thoughts are not who I am, the sensations are not who I am, it is really difficult to say what I am or if there is any I and yet things go on....
Is life OK without any ‘I’? Can things go on, unfold naturally, without ‘I’? How does it feel?
Fred: The word ‘table’ is a sound, which points to a concept, which points to something in reality. When we say ‘self’, what is that pointing to? What is the reality behind? Can you see anything?
Jadoo: Not so clear what this means kindly guide me please :)
I meant is that the word ‘table’(label) refers to a sound ‘table’, which refers to some apparent reality.
When we say ‘self’ (label), that too refers to a sound, then what? Is there an apparent object it refers to? Is there any reality behind it? Is there anything there at all?

Warm wishes,

Fred
"To come to your senses you have to go out of your mind" - Alan Watts

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Jadoo
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Re: Looking for someone to guide me, please !

Postby Jadoo » Mon Mar 24, 2014 7:31 pm

Hi Fred!
I noticed that in your 10 minutes ‘slice of life’ there was only one reference to ‘my’. It felt real. Just life life-ing. Can you re-read it out loud with everything prefixed with ‘my’. How does that feel? Can you see a difference? Which feels more natural? Is ‘I (my)’ any more than a mistaken labelling for all this present experience? Tell me what comes up.
When I read aloud, and prefix 'my' it looks like there is something added which is not there in the raw experience, it is adding an assumption.
Is life OK without any ‘I’? Can things go on, unfold naturally, without ‘I’? How does it feel?
Life is ok without any 'I' pretty much the same, thoughts about past and future arise less.
I meant is that the word ‘table’(label) refers to a sound ‘table’, which refers to some apparent reality. 
When we say ‘self’ (label), that too refers to a sound, then what? Is there an apparent object it refers to? Is there any reality behind it? Is there anything there at all? 
The word 'table' refers to a sound 'table', and the sound refers to the brown wooden thing.
When we say 'self' that too refers to a sound, and that only refers to thoughts, but there is no self within the thoughts. There is no self behind it, there seems to be nothing.
While contemplating, whenever there is contemplation all seems in place. While things are messed up somewhat, there is resistance and then the logic is missed out, but yes all that is also thought!

I guess there is someone looking for logic, and whenever this someone fades, things are simpler.

With thanks and warm wishes !

Jadoo.


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