Looking for someone to guide me, please !

This is a read-only part of the forum. All threads where seeing happens are stored here and come from this forum, the Facebook guiding area and various LU blogs. The complete list, sorted by guide, contains all links. The archives include threads of those that came to LU already seeing as well.
User avatar
Freddi
Posts: 1226
Joined: Thu Oct 25, 2012 1:51 pm
Location: Céret, France

Re: Looking for someone to guide me, please !

Postby Freddi » Mon Mar 10, 2014 6:44 pm

Hi Jadoo,

Thanks for your detailed responses, I am sensing some clarity here.
'Somewhat different' means there seem to arise less thoughts about the future or even past, and there seems to be less planning going on
So if thoughts about the imagined future or past occur, or a 'planning thought' happens, are they OK? Are they welcome too, as part of what is happening?
In between thoughts the Jadoo character is not there. Even when the thoughts are not about Jadoo they are not there. I dont think it is the same Jadoo which appears, as the older one has dissapeared, a new one appears
Yes, isn't it funny how the character is forever re-created?
In deep sleep no thoughts arise and only on waking up the entire story seems to be being rebuilt.
Right, as soon as we wake up, there is waking up, then thoughts can crowd in about what the day will be made of, like a 'to do' list, with "I" in the middle of it all. You can see it all happen as you wake up, in an instant.
 There is only the observed
In Direct Experience, where is this "observed"? Where is the experiencing of the 'tree', is it remote or is it closer than close, intimate? How do you KNOW it's a tree at all? Take a drink, say a cup of tea, involve all your senses, touch the hot cup, smell it, taste it, see its colour. Where is that all happening? Is there a separation between Jadoo, tasting-smelling-touching-seeing and the tea? Or is it one seamless movement?
It seems easy to understand
Liberation is not about understanding, but about seeing ...
it seems difficult to see that there is no sufferer
I am guessing you mean psychological suffering?
OK Let's look for the "self as the sufferer". Invite a story about this sufferer to this investigation, a memory from your past life, or maybe some contemporary event.
See what it translates as in Direct Experience, any sensation felt in the body? Maybe heart beating faster, tightening in the chest area, sweaty palms? Is there a story/image attached to these sensations? Between the sensations in the body and the story told by the thought, which is the one that IS happening and which is the one that IS NOT happening? Where is Jadoo in all this? If he pops up as a character in a thought, how real is he?

Warm wishes,

Fred
"To come to your senses you have to go out of your mind" - Alan Watts

User avatar
Jadoo
Posts: 36
Joined: Wed Mar 05, 2014 3:43 pm

Re: Looking for someone to guide me, please !

Postby Jadoo » Tue Mar 11, 2014 5:35 pm

Hi Fred!
So if thoughts about the imagined future or past occur, or a 'planning thought' happens, are they OK? Are they welcome too, as part of what is happening?
Yes thoughts about the imagined future or past occur or a planning thought occur they are welcome too, they don't change anything.
In Direct Experience, where is this "observed"? Where is the experiencing of the 'tree', is it remote or is it closer than close, intimate?


In direct experience All is experienced here. There is no observed also. Everything arises. The tree appears close and intimate it is 'in' here.
How do you KNOW it's a tree at all?
Im not sure what this means, kindly guide me.....
Take a drink, say a cup of tea, involve all your senses, touch the hot cup, smell it, taste it, see its colour. Where is that all happening? Is there a
separation between Jadoo, tasting-smelling-touching-seeing and the tea? Or is it one seamless movement? 
No it is one seamless movement. Even if thoughts of Jadoo appear that doesnt change anything, its still a seamless movement containing those thoughts.

See what it translates as in Direct Experience, any sensation felt in the body? Maybe heart beating faster, tightening in the chest area, sweaty palms? Is there a story/image attached to these sensations? Between the sensations in the body and the story told by the thought, which is the one that IS happening and which is the one that IS NOT happening? Where is Jadoo in all
this? If he pops up as a character in a thought, how real is he? 
The sensations are happening. The story told by thought is not true as it creates a lie and a voice-over that seem to give the sensations other connotations. Jadoo is not really there, when the story is on, Jadoo is taken as an unquestioned assumption, as the story is always a 'story about' someone. Then there seems to be a sufferer.

Is this intellectual understanding only ? Although most of it is from direct experience ? :)

Really appreciate your time and patient effort,

With heartfelt thanks,

Jadoo.

User avatar
Freddi
Posts: 1226
Joined: Thu Oct 25, 2012 1:51 pm
Location: Céret, France

Re: Looking for someone to guide me, please !

Postby Freddi » Tue Mar 11, 2014 10:04 pm

Hi Jadoo

Thanks for your detailed post. Really enjoying the dedication and sincerity of your responses.
How do you KNOW it's a tree at all?

Im not sure what this means, kindly guide me.....
Staying in direct experience, what is ‘tree’? Can you ever truly know what is observed, experienced? Remember the exercise with the drink? How you saw that the tasting, smelling etc was all happening intimately. Imagine you’re a little child, who has not learned any ‘tree’ vocabulary, like leaves, branches. How would you describe the experience which you previously labelled as ‘tree’? And where is the experiencing happening?
Is this intellectual understanding only? Although most of it is from direct experience?
That’s for you to tell me. Which part is not from direct experience? What we are aiming to do here is to SEE the distinction between on the one hand what IS happening, in your present actuality, i.e. the sensations, the experiencing etc, and, on the other hand, the labelling, the story contained in thoughts. Thoughts do happen as part of direct experience, but the story contained within them is just a commentary. Are you starting to SEE this distinction, Jadoo?

Now let’s see if this “self” is the doer or the chooser.

Tell me from direct experience, as you are reading these words, are you breathing? Is there a self that controls breathing? Is there a self that is beating your heart? Or blinking your eyes?

Now raise either one of your arms. In that process of raising your arm, a decision is made, or at least something happens. Can you pinpoint the actual moment of choice and, more importantly find the actual entity that appears to be making that choice? In direct experience, can that moment of choice, that apparent chooser, actually be found? Or does the idea “I just chose to raise my left/right arm” come after the event itself?

See what comes up. Stay with what you experience, rather than what you think. Let that be your point of anchor.

With warm wishes,

Fred
"To come to your senses you have to go out of your mind" - Alan Watts

User avatar
Jadoo
Posts: 36
Joined: Wed Mar 05, 2014 3:43 pm

Re: Looking for someone to guide me, please !

Postby Jadoo » Wed Mar 12, 2014 6:02 pm

Hi Fred!

In direct experience, without label or using memory or concept, it is not possible to know what a tree really is, it only 'is'. (...Still the concepts and memories do come ...(?) what to do....)

The sensations and experiencing are happening and the story is also happening but the story contains references of being separate which is not true.

From direct experience breathing and beating the heart happens automatically.

So does thinking happening automatically and the actions, no effort is required, no one is there doing any effort. There is no one choosing anything.

It also seems very evident that the idea 'I chose', 'I did', 'I acted' comes later. Lately the said ideas don't come up also (as they would not be believed....it is as though they have subsided).
(From the previous post) Fred : See what it translates as in Direct Experience, any sensation felt in the body? Maybe heart beating faster, tightening in the chest area, sweaty palms? Is there a story/image attached to these sensations? Between the sensations in the body and the story told by the thought, which is the one that IS happening and which is the one that IS NOT happening? Where is Jadoo in all 
this? If he pops up as a character in a thought, how real is he? 
This above part still not fully able to distinguish between the direct experience of the sensations and the story !

As usual your help is deeply appreciated,

Warm regards


Jadoo.

User avatar
Freddi
Posts: 1226
Joined: Thu Oct 25, 2012 1:51 pm
Location: Céret, France

Re: Looking for someone to guide me, please !

Postby Freddi » Wed Mar 12, 2014 7:17 pm

Hi Jadoo,

Thanks for your responses.

Just before we move on, I want to push this a little further:
it is not possible to know what a tree really is, it only ‘is'
And this tree, that only ‘is’, is it an "object" out there? Remember the Jadoo, tasting-smelling-touching-seeing and the tea exercise and how you saw that it was all one seamless movement? In the case of this ‘tree experience’ (and perhaps it would help to go and see it for yourself, in nature), is there anything apart from the experiencing of ‘tree’? Do you see a "Jadoo", a "seeing-hearing-smelling-touching" and a "tree"? Are these separate or is there just one movement?
still not fully able to distinguish between the direct experience of the sensations and the story
OK let’s use another, perhaps more graphic example. Imagine you are afraid of flying (for all I know, you may be). You board a plane for a long haul flight. 12 hours of hell for you. During that flight, you will imagine many times that the plane is about to crash and you are living your last minutes. Do you see it all unfolding, like a disaster movie?
In Direct Experience, what do we have? Heart beating faster, sweaty palms, stomach cramps, white (or green) face, maybe nausea and serious sense of humour failure. That’s all!
At the end of the flight you have crashed many times in story/thought, but you arrived safely. Only sensations in the body were real. The rest was all imagined.

Would you be able to apply this to a stressful thought that is occurring in your present actuality?

With warm wishes,

Fred
"To come to your senses you have to go out of your mind" - Alan Watts

User avatar
Jadoo
Posts: 36
Joined: Wed Mar 05, 2014 3:43 pm

Re: Looking for someone to guide me, please !

Postby Jadoo » Thu Mar 13, 2014 5:51 pm

Hi Fred !

The tree is not out there, it appears along with everything else. There is no seeing-hearing-smelling-touching Jadoo only experiencing of the tree. This is so. However the body appears also, is this ok?

Yes I am understanding that the thoughts are wrapped around an imaginary Jadoo, and it is more than an intellectual understanding, but need to practice this more.

I will spend time with the tree and contemplate deeply and return with more....

Appreciate very much the time and energy you are devoting, will achieve together,

Jadoo.

User avatar
Freddi
Posts: 1226
Joined: Thu Oct 25, 2012 1:51 pm
Location: Céret, France

Re: Looking for someone to guide me, please !

Postby Freddi » Thu Mar 13, 2014 6:52 pm

Hi Jadoo
Thanks for your response.
Yes I am understanding that the thoughts are wrapped around an imaginary Jadoo, and it is more than an intellectual understanding, but need to practice this more
Of course, even after the illusion of Jadoo as a character in charge has been seen through, there will still be plenty of habitual thinking patterns recurring. This is normal. Imagine an engine that has been turned off, but still runs for a bit. The character still comes back, but he is not believed in anymore.

I'll look forward to your further reply when you have spent some time in contemplation with the tree ;-)

Warm wishes,

Fred
"To come to your senses you have to go out of your mind" - Alan Watts

User avatar
Jadoo
Posts: 36
Joined: Wed Mar 05, 2014 3:43 pm

Re: Looking for someone to guide me, please !

Postby Jadoo » Fri Mar 14, 2014 3:34 pm

Hi Fred !

Thank you for your post!

When I look for an 'I' or a Jadoo I cant find it. I am not sure whether there is belief in it or not. It feels like a limbo zone.

I had some (little) time with the tree.

Without vocabulary of the tree, the tree just is - colour, shape, size.
In Direct Experience, where is this "observed"? Where is the experiencing of the 'tree', is it remote or is it closer than close, intimate?
The tree appears - I cannot really say 'where' is the experiencing of the tree, it just appears.

But also ....In a different way it is as if Im looking at the tree from my body.

Is this a flip-flop?

With much gratitude and appreciation,

Jadoo.

User avatar
Freddi
Posts: 1226
Joined: Thu Oct 25, 2012 1:51 pm
Location: Céret, France

Re: Looking for someone to guide me, please !

Postby Freddi » Fri Mar 14, 2014 4:48 pm

Hi Jadoo
Without vocabulary of the tree, the tree just is - colour, shape, size
I will need more than this, Jadoo. Imagine I am from Mars and have never seen a tree in my life, how would you describe the experiencing of the tree, in plain terms. Describe the colour, the smell, the shape, the size etc.

Go out into nature with a notebook. Write down a list of all ‘things’ that come up, whatever it is. Sun shining, Feeling hot, body walking, nightingale singing, dog barking, and so on. Write it all down, in here, for me. And remember, there are no right or wrong answers. Observe where all this experiencing is happening. Is the experiencing of the tree any more remote than the experiencing of the cup of tea we tasted earlier?
But also ....In a different way it is as if Im looking at the tree from my body
This is habitual thinking kicking in. Traditionally, we have been brought up to label experiencing in those terms, but in this investigation we are aiming to see whether this stands up in Direct Experience of the present moment, the only one we can test.

When you have responded to the questions above, we will delve more deeply into this idea of the self as the body.

Warm wishes

Fred
"To come to your senses you have to go out of your mind" - Alan Watts

User avatar
Jadoo
Posts: 36
Joined: Wed Mar 05, 2014 3:43 pm

Re: Looking for someone to guide me, please !

Postby Jadoo » Sat Mar 15, 2014 7:06 pm

Hi Fred!
I will need more than this, Jadoo. Imagine I am from Mars and have never seen a tree in my life, how would you describe the experiencing of the tree, in plain terms. Describe the colour, the smell, the shape, the size etc.
I tried to explain a tree but without labels (and relative things to compare with) and memory it is almost impossible to describe it. It wouldnt be possible to explain colours, size, without referring to something else. Is that odd ?

Go out into nature with a notebook. Write down a list of all ‘things’ that come up, whatever it is. Sun shining, Feeling hot, body walking, nightingale singing, dog barking, and so on. Write it all down, in here, for me. And remember, there are no right or wrong answers. Observe where all this experiencing is happening. Is the experiencing of the tree any more remote than the experiencing of the cup of tea we tasted earlier?

I will do the above tomorrow quite looking forward to the same and will revert !

With best wishes and many many thanks,

Jadoo.

Re: Looking for someone to guide me, please !
Post by Freddi » March 14th, 2014, 9:18 pm

Hi Jadoo

Without vocabulary of the tree, the tree just is - colour, shape, size

I will need more than this, Jadoo. Imagine I am from Mars and have never seen a tree in my life, how would you describe the experiencing of the tree, in plain terms. Describe the colour, the smell, the shape, the size etc.

Go out into nature with a notebook. Write down a list of all ‘things’ that come up, whatever it is. Sun shining, Feeling hot, body walking, nightingale singing, dog barking, and so on. Write it all down, in here, for me. And remember, there are no right or wrong answers. Observe where all this experiencing is happening. Is the experiencing of the tree any more remote than the experiencing of the cup of tea we tasted earlier?

But also ....In a different way it is as if Im looking at the tree from my body

This is habitual thinking kicking in. Traditionally, we have been brought up to label experiencing in those terms, but in this investigation we are aiming to see whether this stands up in Direct Experience of the present moment, the only one we can test.

When you have responded to the questions above, we will delve more deeply into this idea of the self as the body.

Warm wishes

Fred

User avatar
Freddi
Posts: 1226
Joined: Thu Oct 25, 2012 1:51 pm
Location: Céret, France

Re: Looking for someone to guide me, please !

Postby Freddi » Sat Mar 15, 2014 7:17 pm

Hi Jadoo
I tried to explain a tree but without labels (and relative things to compare with) and memory it is almost impossible to describe it. It wouldnt be possible to explain colours, size, without referring to something else. Is that odd ?
No it isn't odd at all to find words inadequate. Every word is a label and does not come close to reality. The point of this is to encourage you to look at the tree as if for the first time, as if you were a small child who did not know what it was. We are trying to describe the tree before the label 'tree' comes up. Is it wiggling? Is it whistling in the wind? Does it feel alive?
Do try, please, and use relative things, references to something else if that's what comes up and it helps. That's OK.

Warm wishes,

Fred
"To come to your senses you have to go out of your mind" - Alan Watts

User avatar
Jadoo
Posts: 36
Joined: Wed Mar 05, 2014 3:43 pm

Re: Looking for someone to guide me, please !

Postby Jadoo » Sun Mar 16, 2014 6:49 pm

Hi Fred !

Finally got some time to spend with a tree want to do more though.

Each branch or long thin extension of the tree was brown a dark colour, and the small green leaves were
strewn on them. The leaves are smaller round thin green things thcikness of paper - connected to the branches and there are several on each branch, and since the three had so many branches - hundreds and thousands of leaves.
The branches were dancing in the wind left and right and up and down and so too the leaves were doing their own dance. The whole experience is a blast of colour and forms and shapes. Sounds of high pitched birds also came up. The trunk or the fatter heavier part of the tree seemed to be supporting the tree and connecting the tree to the ground. It too had its distinct brown colour and much rougher texture than the branches and different altogether from the leaves. Since it was heavier it didnt dance itself in the wind but supported the leaves and the branches which were swaying.

The tree appeared here in my field of vision or awareness.

Will spend more time in next few days to see if I can get more detail.

Look forward and appreciate your time and efforts, as always,


Jadoo.

User avatar
Freddi
Posts: 1226
Joined: Thu Oct 25, 2012 1:51 pm
Location: Céret, France

Re: Looking for someone to guide me, please !

Postby Freddi » Sun Mar 16, 2014 7:08 pm

Hi Jadoo

Thanks for your deep 'look' at the tree.

Now three questions for you to look into:

(1)You say that the tree appeared "in your field of vision or awareness". Your senses and their interpretation may tell you that the tree is 'out there', but is the experiencing of it remote or in the same place as the experiencing of the cup of tea that we tasted/smelled/saw/held in a previous post, when you involved all your senses?

(2) In an earlier post, you said:
thinking happening automatically and the actions, no effort is required, no one is there doing any effort. There is no one choosing anything.
Could you give me a couple of examples of how this process of deciding, choosing happens in everyday life? Take two “apparent” decisions, in your present experience and describe in your own terms, in your own time, what happens, how the decision seems to take place.

(3) Also earlier in our investigation you said:
The body and arising called Jadoo is there but somewhat like how all things arise
and
However the body appears also
Given what you saw there, in your experience, would you say that the body itself experiences sensations (seeing, hearing, touching, smelling, etc), or is the body just another thought label for sensations, like touching?

Take your time with these, Jadoo, and answer all three of these questions as honestly and simply as you can. It is important to have as complete a picture as possible, to make sure we clear up any doubt that may remain.

Warm wishes

Fred
"To come to your senses you have to go out of your mind" - Alan Watts

User avatar
Jadoo
Posts: 36
Joined: Wed Mar 05, 2014 3:43 pm

Re: Looking for someone to guide me, please !

Postby Jadoo » Mon Mar 17, 2014 7:32 pm

Hi Fred !

Thanks for the post!
(1)You say that the tree appeared "in your field of vision or awareness". Your senses and their interpretation may tell you that the tree is 'out there', but is the experiencing of it remote or in the same place as the experiencing of the cup of tea that we tasted/smelled/saw/held in a previous post, when you involved all your senses?
1. In a sense all experiencing is within, but somehow not able to get a hold of this one, specially the 'where' part, please give me some more time to contemplate on the same!
thinking happening automatically and the actions, no effort is required, no one is there doing any effort. There is no one choosing anything.

Could you give me a couple of examples of how this process of deciding, choosing happens in everyday life? Take two “apparent” decisions, in your present experience and describe in your own terms, in your own time, what happens, how the decision seems to take place.
2. When I lie down on my bed in the morning (after I m awake) I decide to get ready, the decision in spontaneous. I am getting up from the bed and going to get ready, there is no I deciding or doing any of it.

Right now when I am typing these words there is no I doing it there is just typing. There is no decision being made, its just typing.
Given what you saw there, in your experience, would you say that the body itself experiences sensations (seeing, hearing, touching, smelling, etc), or is the body just another thought label for sensations, like touching?
3. No the body does not experience, the body arises just like everything else. The sensations, feelings, sights and sounds dont happen at the body level. They dont have a start and end place. They just 'are'. So there is seeing and in that seeing there is a body also. All sensations are and there is no witness to them observed. Only sensations arise, sights arise, sounds arise, and there is nothing but that.

I see that the I also arises just like everything else.

I feel resonance and yet feel there is Identification and am somewhat confused.

Look forward very much to your support and guidance which is very much appreciated.

Warm wishes,

Jadoo.

User avatar
Freddi
Posts: 1226
Joined: Thu Oct 25, 2012 1:51 pm
Location: Céret, France

Re: Looking for someone to guide me, please !

Postby Freddi » Mon Mar 17, 2014 8:08 pm

Hi Jadoo
In a sense all experiencing is within, but somehow not able to get a hold of this one, specially the 'where' part
That’s OK, Jadoo, we’re all fumbling for words here, and words do not come close to the actual experience. You have seen that all experiencing (smelling/seeing/hearing/touching etc) is intimate, immediate, closer than close.
When I lie down on my bed in the morning (after I m awake) I decide to get ready, the decision in spontaneous. I am getting up from the bed and going to get ready, there is no I deciding or doing any of it.

Right now when I am typing these words there is no I doing it there is just typing. There is no decision being made, its just typing
Thanks! ;-)
I feel resonance and yet feel there is Identification and am somewhat confused
Could this be simply because this feeling of aliveness that we are all familiar with has always been labelled as “Jadoo”? Is it any more than habitual thinking?

So far, we are struggling to find the self as the doer, the self as the controller, the chooser, the thinker, the experiencer, the body.

Would you say that you have SEEN through the illusion of self?
If so, how does it feel to see this?

Warm wishes,

Fred
"To come to your senses you have to go out of your mind" - Alan Watts


Return to “ARCHIVES”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Bing [Bot] and 1 guest