Caro requesting Ilona to guide

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Caro92
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Re: Caro requesting Ilona to guide

Postby Caro92 » Tue Mar 04, 2014 8:41 am

This morning and yesterday evening noticing a don't know what to do next - not in a tight, pushing anxious way.
What's not happening, at least in a familiar way and degree, is the preoccupation, trying to push and mould an acceptable me or manipulate situation.
Any trouble with out that? No, relief! Notice difference in interactions with people, remembering things that need doing happens, and forgetting but with not big discernible difference with out the trying to "I must remember to....'
No experience happening of the runaway train - yet! :-)
Trying to push to make clear seeing happen makes no sense therefore too.
Neither does there seem to be a slight numbed out, gone vague and fuzzy experience I am familiar with connected to resistance.

Sending love

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Ilona
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Re: Caro requesting Ilona to guide

Postby Ilona » Wed Mar 05, 2014 8:32 am

Great, I see the doer is leaving the building :)
So you can see how things that need to be done are done and it does not matter what thoughts "dictate" they are only floating around..

Let's examine how language works and how descriptions affect what is.
Here is an article with exercise, do it here or on paper, doesn't matter. http://markedeternal.blogspot.co.uk/2012/05/labels.html

What did you lean about labels, how and what they affect in actuality? Do they affect what is happening? Do they affect how you feel about what is happening? Is label I more then a label?

Sending love.
Truth realized will set you free.
http://ilonaciunaite.com

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Caro92
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Re: Caro requesting Ilona to guide

Postby Caro92 » Wed Mar 05, 2014 2:23 pm

Thanks for your message with further suggestions. Below is the post I wrote before receiving it

My internet connection went, and lots of sleeping yesterday p.m. as I had a bad bladder. Earlier I was sensing into what I called not knowing what to do feeling more. Seems like energy/interest has fallen out of certain preoccupations, lines of questioning.....the thinking " yes......but.... " And what ever 'but' or worry thinking follows. A quality of searching, seeking to prove/ disprove hasn't been arising. Struck by the futility of grasping strategies to make things better ( oh dear bad news for the economy of 'self help' industry!) well all the activities may be beneficial, I don't know but more seeing the madness of all time and money or energy if motivated to fix a self that doesn't exist. How much that has been in operation in my life.
Not knowing what to do in the sense of seeing clearer.
There's a kind of not knowing how all the processes, life happens but that's more like gosh how amazing! There isn't a Caro looking at life like looking at an aquarium saying that's amazing.
The degree of witnessing, noticing varies.

There is bit of resistance in connection of seeing, staying with this shift of noticing/ seeing connection happening in seeing not separate. I'm struggling with words. I label resistance, but something was seen in different way, but briefly. Hard to write as not happening now. Clearly 'I' can't make seeing happen in a particular way again. Just come back to opening to now. How to describe with words, but have also noticed how a phrase or a word can have a lot more baggage attached to it than just a label.

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Ilona
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Re: Caro requesting Ilona to guide

Postby Ilona » Thu Mar 06, 2014 8:17 am

Hi Caro,
You are right there, looking at it.
Not knowing what to do in the sense of seeing clearer.
Have a look, is anything obstructing seeing clearly? Or seeing is just happening, noticing is happening, right here right now? Are thoughts an obstruction of view or it's too part of the view, something that arises and is seen?

Whatever happened is now a story about past and there may be a want to go back to experience that state. But, it's just a thought arising now. The only place and time for seeing is here now. This is all that IS, the rest is in imagination.

Haha, bad news for self help industry, agreed. :)

Sending love.
Truth realized will set you free.
http://ilonaciunaite.com

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Caro92
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Re: Caro requesting Ilona to guide

Postby Caro92 » Thu Mar 06, 2014 12:19 pm

The quick answer to what I learnt about labels is wow! yes! to your article!

So pasting some of what I wrote having found somewhere I can connect to the internet.
I did the exercise twice, last night after reading your article which includes the exercise, and this morning when it was easier to just do the exercise and not have what you had written so closely in the mix.
At first it felt bit contrived to be internally voicing I and my , surplus to requirement, bit of an effort to keep doing it. Even though just following your exercise, and experiencing a clunkiness, keeping going constantly saying I.... Internally or out loud it was producing a familiar experience. Thoughts arose like "am I doing this exercise right". Yes labelling simply what was being experience with I am..., but thoughts about experience, judging, questioning were arising. Getting more 'in my head' thoughts about thoughts, subtle experience of trouble or worry, disease. Feeling less connected.
Struck by even though I started just saying I after a while it was creating something as it were, more. Familiar, a habit I suppose getting activated. I've spent the past week looking at how there isn't a controller, how labelling just happens etc but doing this it's been noticing belief arising or when labelling isn't just labelling

Moving to next exercise. Just dropping the voicing I was a relief, easy to do. Much more ease, relaxing,expansion, more writing about what was actually happening. looking over what I was writing down there is no thinking 'about'. More awareness of little details. Can see how there was increasing intimacy with experience. Experiencing appreciation, joy arising, looking at a wooden sculpture was also like touching it with my being, though sounds odd writing that, and yes it was still the other side of the room, just didn't seem so.
Definitely experience of swimming in the aquarium with everything not looking at

What did you learn about labels, how and what they affect in actuality? Do they affect what is happening? Do they affect how you feel about what is happening? Is label I more then a label?

Labels are just labels, they don't alter what's happening, tagging along after. 'I' can be both just a label like any other but also though it's just that it can trigger a belief, a familiar habit, a more than label and feelings thoughts arise in response to that not what is actually happening and noticeably an unease, troubledness and then how to fix change.... I've never actually watched this, noticed it happening so clearly before.
Sending lots of love

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Caro92
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Re: Caro requesting Ilona to guide

Postby Caro92 » Thu Mar 06, 2014 1:14 pm

Hi,
Yes so obvious. Similar to the 'I' labelling exercise. Nothing is obstructing seeing, it's just happening, thoughts arise, stories just happening, habitually it seems that I suppose a believing the thought/ story happens, then whole lot of complicated things go on. I think you or someone used the analogy of getting so absorbed in a film we forget it is just a film. Noticing all that just happens too. This is a problem is too just a thought arising now. No problem! If you get my drift.
With love, Caro ..... Clearly just a label :-)

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Caro92
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Re: Caro requesting Ilona to guide

Postby Caro92 » Fri Mar 07, 2014 11:06 pm

Hi Ilona,

Today has been a day of assimilation of the last few days, but with a happy spacious heart. Just noticing.

Sending love

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Re: Caro requesting Ilona to guide

Postby Ilona » Sat Mar 08, 2014 9:22 am

Beautiful! :)

Can you tell me how do you see now the whole thing with free will, control, determinism, what makes choices, how all this works?
Are you the driver of what happens?
Have you ever been?

Sending love.
Truth realized will set you free.
http://ilonaciunaite.com

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Caro92
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Re: Caro requesting Ilona to guide

Postby Caro92 » Sat Mar 08, 2014 6:27 pm

Good questions as this has been where sticking for want of a better word or 'but.....' arises so taking time to answer with honesty what seems true now, today.

I believed I was the driver. Therefore no driver would mean out of control train. But it's clear there is no driver and never has been, just fiction. So simple, and huge in terms of clocking the difficulties and suffering that arise from that belief. No. fictional me is not the driver of what happens, or has been or will be.

"Can you tell me how do you see now the whole thing with free will, control, determinism, what makes Can you tell me how do you see now the whole thing with free will, control, determinism, what makes choices, how all this works?

There is some sense of wonder and amazement, like asking how does google search work. Thought arises, typing question, looking at screen, button pressed, all this information appears. How amazing, I don't know how that happened.

Letter arrives saying my car insurance renewal needs to happen. I don't respond there and then. Thought about it needing doing doesn't arise for some hours. Watching something on TV, an advert about insurance comes on. Thought arises oh need to sort car insurance. Do this later. There was no controller me doing all this, or trying to remember, and what needed to happen happened.

Free will doesn't make sense as it seems to imply a will or something operating out side of life. There isn't anything out side of life.
Choice. Well that just seems to happen, 'I' getting tagged on as an after event. There isn't an I that makes the second choice, like I wrote the feeling of I choose to pick up what I dropped when I tripped. There is a whole lot of past experiences, influences that come into play and influences just happening in the present. Even if it was actually possible to know them all I see that there is no way that would lead to knowing future choice. Life as Caro has no powers to know the future.

There is a drive/desire to engage in this process with you. But it's not like I'm in control of that, or is it a constant 24/7 experience. Other thoughts and activities happen; then engagement, focus with enquiry happens.


Determinism worry hasn't been about. Clearly things are not pre-determined, fixed. Neither does no one to have 'from my point of view' , mean that seeing from behind happens without turning the head. Life happens, unfolds irrespective of believing me as a real thing/driver or not.

Story arises...this is the big problem, concern, worry about agency
So asking Is there experiencing problem, tightening, worry fear here now? No.
Neither can I answer honestly that I understand how it all works (giggle as I realise what's written. No 'I' to be able to answer).

Feeling some constriction that has the flavour of just wanting to be under the duvet,not seeing, hearing knowing anything! welcoming that. Actually do it. Relaxing happens. Relief not to be working out how to describe experience. Happiness and ease come. How it all works is a mystery, or unknowable in terms of pinning it all down. Life is relational, interactions. So many different things. Whats happened in the past effects now but also interactions in the present can be totally surprising. Well after years and years of habit of believing self to be real, can be broken and seen through. Just like that!

Asking is there a problem?
Just noticing what I observe happening in this area for the past week, rather than imagine might be the case, the worry doesn't arise just more flow. No problem. But I can't say it's completely vanished either. Something has definitely relaxed around it, which is a big difference, change. More ease and trust experienced when just noticing. To be honest at the moment I am not sure if there is something I'm not seeing, or resisting letting go of such a habitual questioning just because it's familiar, or looking for a problem not there.

Sending love, I'm off out into the sunshine now.

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Ilona
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Re: Caro requesting Ilona to guide

Postby Ilona » Sun Mar 09, 2014 9:08 am

Beautiful!
I can see that you are describing from seeing, that is great.
Tell me, can you say with a big fat YES, that it's clear, separate self, I entity is a mind created image, not reality. If not, what else is needed to be looked at? If yes, are you ready for the final questions?

Sending love!
Truth realized will set you free.
http://ilonaciunaite.com

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Caro92
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Re: Caro requesting Ilona to guide

Postby Caro92 » Sun Mar 09, 2014 9:21 am

Hi,
Reading your note an immediate loud yes came, not thinking or wondering :-)

Yesterday tension and frustration, contraction happening was getting into hissy, frustration, not liking trying to describe experience in words on computer screen. Familiar stuff. Focus there. Thought came as I stopped and driving loving sound of African music loud, Ilona is having meeting today I think. How lovely to actually be there. Release and happiness since!

Much love

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Re: Caro requesting Ilona to guide

Postby Ilona » Sun Mar 09, 2014 9:51 am

Sweet! Here are the questions :)

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.

3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

5) Anything to add?

Please answer in full, when ready.


The meeting yesterday was really great. Will post the recording soon :)
Much love.
Truth realized will set you free.
http://ilonaciunaite.com

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Caro92
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Re: Caro requesting Ilona to guide

Postby Caro92 » Tue Mar 11, 2014 11:16 pm

Hi Ilona,
Just wanted to send you a wave as you have been very much in my heart, but haven't replied to your questions, though have written bits.
Apart from the glories of spring to be enjoyed, friends birthdays to be celebrated, I had a meeting yesterday that needed time to prepare, which went really well.
I have been flowing between joy happiness and gratitude, just getting on with things, feeling bit stunned/ disorientated for patches and soo tired at times.
Sending much love, Caro

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Re: Caro requesting Ilona to guide

Postby Ilona » Thu Mar 13, 2014 12:57 pm

Thank you for message and loving vibes :)
Great to hear that there is joy and gratefulness present!
Have a wonderful day, Caro.

Sending love
Truth realized will set you free.
http://ilonaciunaite.com

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Caro92
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Re: Caro requesting Ilona to guide

Postby Caro92 » Fri Mar 14, 2014 9:14 am

Hi Ilona,

These are the answers to your questions. Easy to feel I'm regurgitating what's been said before, by others recent or from the past (or from recent posts by me). But of course it's not a unique experience, so more a" ooh THATS what they were saying and I didn't get it or thought I had."

Seperate self IS an illusion!! Mind made. As such it never was real to then be seen as an illusion, no bit that's real and other aspects an illusion or misperception. I have no memory of when believing it actually started.

Early childhood there didn't seem a bother or concern in moving between make believe/imaginary worlds and real, or imaginary world being real. Also the I, me mine started up. Not mine, you're different to me etc. exploring, learning language.....labelling becomes belief in me and this misconception hardens, snowballs........that's just the way things are .......worry and concern about me, this me then assumes ownership of life happening as this human being.......the labelling of experience is now I did that.......judgements come about whether I'm good or not.....judgements believed to be real too..... pushing and striving to make me acceptable......all sorts attempted to mould and fix me into better me.....including trying to keep this real me hidden as if they knew who I really was they would reject me!!........ Thoughts, stories about imagined scenarios about what might happen, who I am;The whole thing about needing to protect me. Oh dear hard to know whether to laugh or cry at the whole merry-go-round! My searching and seeking to understand (great) but the continuing self doubt (I.e. I'm no good, this isn't working), frustrations, trying new angles, all coming from believing there was a self to be fixed. Therefore what ever good intentions were operating, belief in me as self was operating. (Lots of what I have done and been taught has been really helpful I'm not negating that). An illusion trying to understand or see what is true as it were; illusion trying to solve the problem of how self was the problem and didn't exist!! I was caught in self trying to see or free self, trying to fix the suffering/problem with the problem, rather than JUST NOTICING what was actually happening in experience. Noticing experience was increasing but not directly at what would see through cherished me! Times of experiencing more flow and not being trapped in selfing of course I wanted more of, but even knowing the theory about self, there was the how to get self out the way attitude.


So much suffering in connection with an illusion and illusions about an illusion, I've only started describing it all!



How does it feel to see this....relief! well flow of different things....happy and relaxed, so much gratitude and appreciation, how on earth was it I never looked at the obvious with all the exposure to the concept of no self. It's been good to have a few days with an open invitation " any more questions". Once you have seen how a magician has done his trick, the spell is broken. In no way does if feel a sort of 'ok done that seen through that trick' just a beginning. I have been taken by surprise by how much I have LOVED engaging in this process with you from the very start.

Yesterday started with loosing all my notes and jottings and 'post' to you in the attempt to cut and past onto the web. No idea how it had happened and attempts to retrieve and phone a friend for help didn't work. Yes there was reactions but not familiar selfing stories about being no good, can't understand computers. Late for work due to this, and a very high large ceiling to paint and another frustrating event. What I notice after was how there hadn't been the controller in the tower issuing instructions that is so familiar, and a tensing and pushing in the face of imagined 'this is going to be hard, it always is, this that and the other will probably happen. You need to approach it like this, mustn't reactive, that won't help, mindful on the top of that high stepladder. With out all that going on everything happened. Oh including rewriting, having another go fiddling with the computer and suddenly the writing was back. (Still none the wiser how it disappeared or what I did for it to return)

Hard to say what the last bit that pushed me over to seeing. It didn't feel like one big collapsing, More like spaced dominos on their ends in a circle and push one and they all start going, over a few days.
Allowing any story, 'yes but....' To be there (like old favourites playing on the radio) and just looking, noticing what was actually happening,there started coming a few big wows of what I think is actually not what's happening! I think your question 'notice how stories are about what's not actually happening' was so helpful. Oh yea of course, looking then to see what was actually happening: Seeing how thoughts can be around, attention going there in a just happening way even if the story is repetitive, familiar, or the same thought comes and 'self' belief is attached to it, the thought has a 'charge'. Asking "is there a problem" was helpful to notice if there was what I call an emotional not seeing, holding on, still operating.

I read through our dialogue, and of course it's very different now, just yes, or oh yes at the beginning I missed that obvious helpful pointer. The desire not to be deluded was/ is very cautious about false 'sightings'. Seeing that there was no doer was a huge OMG.' Doing the labelling exercise again big impact, seeing how process of believing begins out of just labelling, how it can just be dropped. The agency issue somehow more evaporated so when you asked me to write how I saw that now, the tightening, worry, following thoughts to that, were no longer there.
In retrospect an experience I had one night was significant, though I didn't say much as I didn't know if it was just like a meditation experience that you have and it just goes, or changing emotional state as it wasn't clear seeing of illusion , but connected with the doer and a tightly held view supporting a sense of self. The story of not being good, so if I let go of control the devil, as it were, will leap free, runaway train. Tears started flowing that were a mixture of relief, grief, happiness,didn't quite know; like some huge burden had dropped away, been put down, no longer needed to operate and was experiencing more and more relaxing happening over a period of time. The label trusting came but couldn't quite work out what.

No questions have come the last week, except any tips to support insight permeating to the marrow, as it were, would be welcomed as well as any further questions or request for clarification from you.

Sending much love, and thanks for your message yesterday.


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