Thread for Hecate

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smudge
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Re: Thread for Hecate

Postby smudge » Tue Mar 11, 2014 11:19 am

We are getting there,

Yes DE is whatever is going on...thoughts, sensations seems to mainly be what is being noticed now. And yes your right its all fluid and insubstantial and also empty of an I. Keep looking to confirm this is DE. the pointing exercise is a great way to re investigate in any moment i find.
form seems to be the evidence of an I. :-/
Well spotted, so look and see if body really = me?

SO, is this more accurate?

SENSATION =
pressure, burning and sharpness, there is dryness, congestion, heaviness, warmth, more pressure, itching, wetness, tickle, contraction, rawness,...
Sensations: despair, fear, overwhelmed
THOUGHTS:
despair, fear, overwhelmed, I am too messy", thought "I cannot do this", mental image "spilling out all over the place", thought "this is doubt
"The bad news is you're falling, the good news is theres no ground" Trungpa

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Hecate
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Re: Thread for Hecate

Postby Hecate » Wed Mar 12, 2014 10:34 am

Hi Smudge,

Form does not equal "me". Whenever I investigate where form begins or ends I cannot find the edge. Whenever I look for "me" in form, all there is, is sensation - lots of pulsing sensations actually! and movement - it all coming and going. Also a sense of the "objects" happening simultaneously as the looking, that comes up quite strongly when doing the pointing exercise but also when cycling down the road for example as if the trees and cars move as much towards "me" as "I" towards them.

Yes, the sensations are the burning and sharp ones, pressure, warmth, heaviness, dryness, etc... And the thoughts are the phrases and images coming and going, commenting on the sensations sometimes but sometimes totally randomly as well...

Love Hecate

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smudge
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Re: Thread for Hecate

Postby smudge » Wed Mar 12, 2014 12:22 pm

Great looking!
So there is No YOU to be found! but there is this dance of sensations, thoughts, awareness and forms. So now look directly at this display and look at how choices happen and give some examples.
"The bad news is you're falling, the good news is theres no ground" Trungpa

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Hecate
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Re: Thread for Hecate

Postby Hecate » Wed Mar 12, 2014 10:18 pm

Choice just seem to happen. A thought can arise slightly before or after a muscle movement. Or a thought arises slightly after noticing a sensation upon which a movement happens and the thought could be labeled as "choice", but really there is only noticing and movement. And sometimes the thought isn't concerned with what is going on at all and still the body moves in a certain way. So then it looks like the body makes the choice. But bodies don't make choices, they are just bodies...
For example, cycling down the path there is the seeing of another person in the opposite directions and a movement towards the left hand side of the path follows. A thought arose "I'll go out of the way" but I noticed that that thought actually succeeded the movement of my bike to the left.
There was a sensation of warmth and a movement happened rolling up the sleeves of the top I'm wearing. But that wasn't really "a choice" it was all done before a thought even arose.
A thought arises "thirst" and my body moves towards the kettle and fills it, but there doesn't seem to be choice in there. Maybe it is more an automatic move away from an unpleasant sensation?

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smudge
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Re: Thread for Hecate

Postby smudge » Wed Mar 12, 2014 11:16 pm

The examples are great!....Wonderful!... Yes!... Fascinating isn't it!
And sometimes the thought isn't concerned with what is going on at all
Just clarify this please? Is a thought ever concerned, can a thought be concerned?

Hope you're feeling better x
"The bad news is you're falling, the good news is theres no ground" Trungpa

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Hecate
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Re: Thread for Hecate

Postby Hecate » Thu Mar 13, 2014 10:33 am

Is a thought ever concerned, can a thought be concerned?
What I meant there was more that sometimes a thought does have a some connection with a sensation or emotion or movement of the body - eg. thought "I'll have a sip of my tea" and the hand moves towards the cup of tea.

But sometimes eg. there was a sensation of dryness on the skin just now and a reaching towards the hand cream. The thoughts in that moment didn't have anything to do with hands, dryness or reaching for the cream but were occupied with a song and some memories around that song.

I am feeling better - the cold has cleared and things are reconciled with my boyfriend and it looks like we haven't quite split up at all! It is a very new relationship and it's a bit stormy getting to know each other.

Love Hecate x

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smudge
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Re: Thread for Hecate

Postby smudge » Thu Mar 13, 2014 10:37 am

So does the thought 'sometimes' make the hand pick up the cup? Or does it describe what's already happening on automatic. Look closely and report back.

Glad your feeling better.


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"The bad news is you're falling, the good news is theres no ground" Trungpa

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Hecate
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Re: Thread for Hecate

Postby Hecate » Thu Mar 13, 2014 11:50 am

No, the thought does not make the hand move. The thought comments on the movement or not. A thought arises and a movement happens - but not like the thought makes the movement happen or many thoughts happen without action at all.

So for example: thought "I could have a sip of my tea"... space .... movement of hand to cup of tea ...

Or:

thought "I could have a sip of tea" ... space ... thought "memory of song played on the radio this morning" ... space ... mental image of looking out of kitchen window ... And no movement towards the tea has happened.

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smudge
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Re: Thread for Hecate

Postby smudge » Thu Mar 13, 2014 12:56 pm

So is there still doubt that I is an illusion. If so what so we can explore.


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Hecate
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Re: Thread for Hecate

Postby Hecate » Fri Mar 14, 2014 4:22 pm

No, there isn't any doubt that I is an illusion - though the illusion still creeps in!

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smudge
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Re: Thread for Hecate

Postby smudge » Fri Mar 14, 2014 5:25 pm

So what in DE is illusion?


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Hecate
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Re: Thread for Hecate

Postby Hecate » Fri Mar 14, 2014 5:51 pm

mmmm... a thought that arises "there is some one in my head looking out into the world"
:-D

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smudge
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Re: Thread for Hecate

Postby smudge » Sat Mar 15, 2014 12:08 am

So I asked what is illusion and you answer 'a thought in my head'
Sounding good, lets see...

so investigate in direct experience only:
1.answer again clearly what is an illusion, rather than what is the content of the illusion
2. What is the word 'my' pointing at when you say a thought in my head
3.Where did this thought arise from
"The bad news is you're falling, the good news is theres no ground" Trungpa

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Hecate
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Re: Thread for Hecate

Postby Hecate » Sat Mar 15, 2014 7:44 pm

Hi smudge

I am not sure what illusion is like from direct experience as it is just getting too abstract. The my was pointing towards this form that for convenience sake is referred to as 'mine'. The thought arose from not sure where... No-one was thinking it, it was there and then it was gone.

Does that make things any clearer? I might not be able to report back tomorrow as i have a very full day - but will be in touch on monday.
Hope that is ok?

Love Hecate

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smudge
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Re: Thread for Hecate

Postby smudge » Sat Mar 15, 2014 8:01 pm

It sounds a little rushed. This work is deep and needs time and space to really look deeply otherwise thoughts come in which is NOT DE. Do you understand what DE is? Please do the sultana exercise again to refresh it. We are going round and round with the I identifying as form again, which it will if questions are not answered from DE. Take time and describe fully what your quotes really are in DE.
illusion still creeps in
my was pointing towards this form
The thought arose from not sure where
Only answer when you deep direct looking is happening and the answers can come from this place.

S x
"The bad news is you're falling, the good news is theres no ground" Trungpa


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