Thread for Hecate

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smudge
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Re: Thread for Hecate

Postby smudge » Wed Mar 05, 2014 9:41 pm

The back and the chair are the ideas put on certain sensations. In DE there is warmth and pressure.
Very clear. Nice.
I really don't know where it comes from. I notice that there is upset arising as if it is really important that there is this witness, even if it were the world witnessing. Something needs to be witnessed...
OK, it's biting. Thats OK. So bring kindness to the sadness...is there fear too? that there might not be a witness?? Take a peak behind the emotions here, what are they protecting? whats there?

Stay with it, its a crucial point, great looking. The way things are is the way things are and always were so realising it will be OK...but look and find out for sure.
x
"The bad news is you're falling, the good news is theres no ground" Trungpa

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Hecate
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Re: Thread for Hecate

Postby Hecate » Wed Mar 05, 2014 10:02 pm

It's something about the realness of experience. As if if it isn't witnessed, it isn't real. So yes, there is fear that this existence doesn't make any difference, it is left unnoticed and has no effect whatsoever if nothing witnesses it. Somehow the witness justifies the form sitting here.

I'll keep looking at it and hold it with kindness...
Hx

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smudge
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Re: Thread for Hecate

Postby smudge » Wed Mar 05, 2014 10:08 pm

Yes peak behind the fear. What's there?
Sounds like some existential meaning is getting challenged. All good!!



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Hecate
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Re: Thread for Hecate

Postby Hecate » Thu Mar 06, 2014 11:20 am

Here are some questions I asked myself when looking at the fear this morning...
Is the existence of the table, chair, bike shed etc less real because they do not have a sense of self? No, as contact with them does give rise to sensations: cold, warm, pressure,...
Is the sound of the geese flying over less real if there isn't an I witnessing it? No, the sound of the geese is just there whether there is a witness or not.
So why is it that this form needs to be witnessed in order to feel real???

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Re: Thread for Hecate

Postby smudge » Thu Mar 06, 2014 7:50 pm

So why is it that this form needs to be witnessed in order to feel real???
Does it?? or is that a story?
The "I" needing witnessing is no more real than Santa, he is a nice story but can't be found to be real in DE? (sorry to break it you!)

So there still sounds to be fear and I have asked you to look behind it to see what it is protecting, anything there other than a story?

Love
S x
"The bad news is you're falling, the good news is theres no ground" Trungpa

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Hecate
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Re: Thread for Hecate

Postby Hecate » Fri Mar 07, 2014 2:00 pm

Hi Smudge,

So... stuck again... Yes it is a story. The form does not need to be witnessed to feel real. I can say that but still I cannot let go.

The fear... I was reminded of what I experienced on the retreat - realizing that there wasn't an "I" I could see and therefor believing no-one else sees me and the upset that caused me. From where I sit, there is belief of a me and the fear when I realize that there isn't a me the black hole to fall in. The fear protects the upset. That upset wasn't a story but something I really felt in my body a strong aching in my chest. Out of that pain, the witness concept arose, allowing me to believe that even though I didn't see an I, what I experience is real: the ache in my chest, the pressure of the earth on my feet when walking and the heat of the sun.

Hecate x

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Re: Thread for Hecate

Postby smudge » Fri Mar 07, 2014 6:50 pm

I can say that but still I cannot let go.
Really or another story? Again what is the "I" you refer to. please describe. This exploration isn't about getting rid of stories or upset, it's about looking to see if there is a self doing or experiencing any of this vast display of arisings and passings. If there in DE please describe so we can explore.
That upset wasn't a story but something I really felt in my body a strong aching in my chest
DE of emotions is pure sensation, so there are feeling sensations with a label upset arising. Sounds painful. And yet what is this so called "I" feeling it. Only use DE to find out or lostness, confusion and delusion with arise!
what I experience is real
No. LOOK! yes experience is real. But IS THERE AN I experiencing it. The story of one is strong and habitual, but just a glimpse of the way things really are is enough to dislodge this crazy delusion.
I can say that but still I cannot let go.
Thats because a new story is being told that isn't believed because it isn't yet DE.

ONLY ANSWER FROM DE please.

Much love
"The bad news is you're falling, the good news is theres no ground" Trungpa

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Hecate
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Re: Thread for Hecate

Postby Hecate » Sun Mar 09, 2014 12:05 am

Dear Smudge,

Sorry for the late reply. I've split up with my boyfriend, so more painful experiences arising: shivering, pressure in my chest, contraction in my stomach, pulsing heartbeat during the argument and wetness of the tears. Coldness of the evening air on my skin standing at my friend's door and warmth of the tea she gave me and the sight of the stars.

I wasn't able to really investigate the questions today as it is all a bit raw and scary, but I will investigate more tomorrow.

love
Hecate

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smudge
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Re: Thread for Hecate

Postby smudge » Sun Mar 09, 2014 8:14 am

Sorry to hear this Hecate! Ouch!

Feeling Dukkha can be a good opportunity to notice that it consists of nothing more than thought and sensation. Use this opportunity to see this! Do look.

Healing vibes coming your way. X


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Hecate
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Re: Thread for Hecate

Postby Hecate » Sun Mar 09, 2014 3:04 pm

Hi Smudge,

I am trying to hang in there looking. I am now coming down with a cold as well, so not in great shape. Trying to stay with DE as much as I can, with the sensations in my body and the coming and going of thoughts, but on the whole just quite upset and not sure I am doing very well here.
Really sorry ... just don't know how to get to see through ...

Hecate

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smudge
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Re: Thread for Hecate

Postby smudge » Sun Mar 09, 2014 7:16 pm

Your so so close. The only problem is belief in the main character of the story which from DE is not REAL. What are the ingredients of doubt and of the ' I that has a cold and is not in great shape and upset'? List the ingredients to really search out any entity .

Big love
S x




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Hecate
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Re: Thread for Hecate

Postby Hecate » Mon Mar 10, 2014 1:22 pm

Hi Smudge,

Thanks for your encouraging words! I'm in a better space today... A lot of fear for nothingness, the big black whole and a clinging onto that self have been playing up over the weekend. And thoughts and emotions of resistance arising - "I don't want to see through, I am happier in this comfortable shape"

So the ingredients of the I are...
Bodily sensations: Pressure in my head and on my eyes because of the cold and a general heaviness in my muscles, which are labeled as tiredness, difficulties to breath, dryness of throat and burning sensations in the nose.
Emotionally: I still struggle to identify emotions in DE. What are the ideas and labels that are put on things. There is something that is labelled as distress, some fear around an idea that if there isn't that identity containing experience I will just spill out into an everything consuming black hole. Doubt seems to be a whole string of thoughts and experience that are conveniently labeled as one thing. There's the memories of situation of previous failure and a thought that "I am too messy to see through or cope with insight" also a thought "of being overwhelmed". Emotions seem to be thoughts labeling a bodily feeling eg a pressure in my stomach or a thought arises and a bodily sensation responds (e.g. I am too messy to see through and a sensation of heaviness arises in my muscles and tears well up) and that becomes the ingredients of the I.

I was just walking down the corridor, wondering whether the wall was moving towards me or me towards the wall. It reminded me of the pointing exercise we did last week :)

love
Hecate x

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Hecate
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Re: Thread for Hecate

Postby Hecate » Mon Mar 10, 2014 2:48 pm

Hi Smudge,

Just one more thought I had over the weekend, as I find it so difficult to describe the I in DE. How can I describe something in DE that isn't there? It's like all I can describe with DE is the constant flow of thoughts and sensations and emotions-though I am not sure whether those are really DE as they seem the be suspiciously close to ideas about that I and forming that I.

Anyway, just thought I'd throw that in too.

Hx

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Re: Thread for Hecate

Postby smudge » Mon Mar 10, 2014 3:00 pm

Doubt seems to be a whole string of thoughts and experience that are conveniently labeled as one thing
Nice looking
It's like all I can describe with DE is the constant flow of thoughts and sensations
Spot on!

You are mixing up body as in form, sensations (which are emotions) and thoughts (stories/ideas) which seems to end up equaling evidence of an I.
So please re wite what you were getting at in your post before last and literally separate them into these headings using DE to find out and double check and also do not use the word I or me at all in this paragraph.

You are doing good, its just a break a deeded habit of mis identifying. I am glad a better space is happening!

x
"The bad news is you're falling, the good news is theres no ground" Trungpa

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Hecate
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Re: Thread for Hecate

Postby Hecate » Tue Mar 11, 2014 11:09 am

Hi Smudge,

Yes, that mix up seems what is happening, especially form seems to be the evidence of an I. :-/

In the body: there is pressure, burning and sharpness, there is dryness, congestion, heaviness, warmth, more pressure, itching, wetness, tickle, contraction, rawness,...
Sensations: despair, fear, overwhelmed
Thoughts: thought "I am too messy", thought "I cannot do this", mental image "spilling out all over the place", thought "this is doubt"

Mmmm... this is really hard. I'm not sure how to put this but I really find it hard to put emotions and thoughts into DE as they just come and go, they aren't me. Writing emotions down reduces them to ideas, putting labels onto them and has nothing to do with DE as the moment has gone and the emotion has passed. Is DE not only what is experienced in the body as that is only in the now?
Thoughts just come and go as well and seem to be even more fluid and less substantial.

Hecate x


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