Thread for Hecate

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Hecate
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Re: Thread for Hecate

Postby Hecate » Sat Mar 01, 2014 11:06 am

No the leg is not feeling the pinch. There is the sensation of that bit of skin being squeezed, there is the sensation of the skin of one part of my body against another part of the body and something going a bit deeper than the skin, maybe the nerve endings? The experience of that pinch is partly located in the leg, in the sensations of the skin. And partly somewhere else - in an idea of leg or in idea of shape of a leg - as I notice other sensations where my leg touches the the fabric of my clothes and the resistance of the surface it rests upon.

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Re: Thread for Hecate

Postby smudge » Sat Mar 01, 2014 11:10 am

So see what in what you write is DE. isn't leg, nerves, skin, clothes just ideas/thoughts. If so what's left but bare sensation!! Keep looking deeply.


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"The bad news is you're falling, the good news is theres no ground" Trungpa

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Hecate
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Re: Thread for Hecate

Postby Hecate » Sun Mar 02, 2014 9:40 am

The sensation of the pinch is DE: first sharp and then more numb and some pressure. The brushing sensation creating the idea of clothes against my skin is DE - as I only say it is my clothes because I "know" I am wearing them. So yes, only bare sensation is left when I close my eyes, look deeply and leave behind the idea of knowing what is going on.

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Re: Thread for Hecate

Postby smudge » Sun Mar 02, 2014 10:37 am

only bare sensation is left when I close my eyes...first sharp and then more numb and some pressure. The brushing sensation.../quote]

Good noticing Hecate, sensation is sensation.
creating the idea of clothes against my skin is... I "know" I am wearing them
This however is story/thoughts, yes? What knows?
look deeply and leave behind the idea of knowing what is going on
Thoughts carry on describing experience with an "I" am doing it in there too, thats fine...thats thoughts, its what they do.

So, can you choose to 'leave behind' thoughts, how? what chooses? Can thoughts Do anything?

Do this to help see the place of thoughts: Write what you are experiencing right now using the words I and me. Get right to the point, no past or future fantasy, just plain description of here now. Like this: I am lying in bed. I am hearing rain. I am typing these words. Do this for 10 minutes. Watch the body; what physical sensations are happening?
Then for the next 10 minutes write what you are experiencing without the words I and me. Just describe the experience as it is happening in the moment, using verbs: Waiting for next thought, typing, breathing, blinking, hearing rain. Again watch what is happening in the body. Now compare these two ways to label experience. What do you notice?
"The bad news is you're falling, the good news is theres no ground" Trungpa

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Hecate
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Re: Thread for Hecate

Postby Hecate » Sun Mar 02, 2014 3:14 pm

The first exercise I found was actual quite hard to stay in touch with my body. There seem to be a constant separation happening between the experience and writing about it. As a delay in putting it down, which meant more space for some judgement to creep in. The sensation in the body happened, the sound was heard and then the thought created the sentence. There was also some filtering going on, some bits were left out of the writing as they were judged as not good enough for the exercise. And there was a certain nervousness to get it all down and do it well. And I felt bored by towards the end.

With the second one, there was much less going on in a way. It was easier to put the sensations down and as the minutes went by less was happening but it was more interesting and more peaceful. It was easier to stay with the body, there wasn't much judgement going on.

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Re: Thread for Hecate

Postby smudge » Sun Mar 02, 2014 7:23 pm

Hi Hecate,

Good, lets go deeper, please do the stuff i have written in BOLD and report back.
the sound was heard and then the thought created the sentence
ReallY?? Check again..can a thought DO anything?
It was easier to put the sensations down
You didnt answer this yet:
So, can you choose to 'leave behind' thoughts, how? what chooses? Can thoughts Do anything?
What puts sensations down? describe please

There seem to be a constant separation happening between the experience and writing about it
So when an I story sticks to whats just happening a sense of separation occurs, lets see if there really is any separation:

carry out the following experiment.

When you point anywhere in the world you point at appearances. You are distant from what you are looking at and you see things, you see objects. Observe this – direct your attention at things by pointing at them.

For example, I can see the shapes and colours of this room…

of my foot...

...of my knee

of my chest...

In all these instances attention is directed outwards, at objects.

Now point where others see your face.

What do you see? You are now looking inwards – turning the direction of your attention round 180˚ from the objects out there to you the Subject, to the place you (think?) are looking out of. Do you see your face? Do you see anything at all there - any colour or shape, any movement?

Looking in to the place where others see your face, do you find colour or shape here.

What do you find?

Take it further: Point with one index finger outwards at the world, and with your other index finger point inwards towards where you used to think your face was. Describe as fully as you can what the experience is like.

Looking forward to hearing,
S x
"The bad news is you're falling, the good news is theres no ground" Trungpa

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Hecate
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Re: Thread for Hecate

Postby Hecate » Mon Mar 03, 2014 3:07 pm

Hi Smudge,

I haven't done the second experiment yet, but I just wanted to get back to you about the first part for now. I hope that is ok?

With regard to the thoughts: obviously no, thoughts cannot do anything. Sentences form. Thoughts are left behind in a non literal way as another thought arises in the open space. And although the thought doesn't do anything, it does take up some form of experience. I was going to write "space" but I don't mean that in a solid way.
It was easier to put the sensations down


You didnt answer this yet:
So, can you choose to 'leave behind' thoughts, how? what chooses? Can thoughts Do anything?
What puts sensations down? describe please
What I meant there was that it was easier to write the sensations down using the verbs then using the "I's" and "me's". So it wasn't that something literally put the sensations down, it was more that the process of reporting on experience was easier. Sorry for not explaining myself clearly.

Take care,
Hecate

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Re: Thread for Hecate

Postby smudge » Mon Mar 03, 2014 4:08 pm

So thoughts can't do anything, they just report on experience...YES! :-)

Looking forward to hearing about the next pointing experiment.
"The bad news is you're falling, the good news is theres no ground" Trungpa

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Hecate
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Re: Thread for Hecate

Postby Hecate » Tue Mar 04, 2014 10:58 am

Hi Smudge,

Great exercise!
So when pointing outwards, there was a subtle sense of separation, maybe of an "observer". Even though when pointing towards thing, there was more awareness of them eg noticing more colours and shadows, there was also a stronger sense of a something looking at those things. Somehow both became more distinct.

When pointing inwards, there were still the objects around me, but sensations in my body and especially towards the back of my body were stronger. Before doing that I had the fear of turning around and seeing a black hole where others see my face and where I think my face is. Pointing towards my face, there were different sensation, pulsing, itching etc. No black hole but also not the image I usually think of as my face. No clear boundary either between face and air around me.

Pointing both inside and outside, that sense of boundary dissolved even more though it didn't become one blur. There were forms, smells, sounds and impressions but at some moments very little distinction between inside and outside. Just aliveness.

Looking forward to the next! :)

Hecate

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Re: Thread for Hecate

Postby smudge » Tue Mar 04, 2014 3:52 pm

Hi Hecate,

Glad you like the exercise, it's my favourite! So, so far we have looked to see if the body is the "I" and so can you say it isn't from DE now?

And thoughts, what relevance do they have on the so called "I" that can be, and has been to date in this dialogue, observed in DE?

When we are clear on body and thoughts we can check some other places to see if a self is hiding out :-)

You are doing great,
S x
"The bad news is you're falling, the good news is theres no ground" Trungpa

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Hecate
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Re: Thread for Hecate

Postby Hecate » Tue Mar 04, 2014 4:49 pm

Hi Smudge,

Thanks for your encouragement. I had a bit of a dip yesterday, before doing the exercise, some fear arising and a really upsetting conversation yesterday evening, but somehow staying with DE helped! Feeling very motivated - or better: feeling tingling sensations in the area of my stomach and the thought "motivation" arises ;-)

So, no the body is not the "I". It is not possible, in DE, to find its "edge", to find where my body (eg leg) begins and an other (eg. bed) ends. Noticing it, there are sensations: pressure, tingling, heat, itching...

Thoughts are a bit more subtle. As I've noticed, they cannot do anything (i.e. there isn't a thought that can make my hand move) yet seem to be busy reporting experience all the time. There can be a "sense" of an observer of a thinker of the thought at times. Or maybe it is more becoming aware of a space in which they arise?

Looking forward to taking the next steps :)

love
Hecate

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Re: Thread for Hecate

Postby smudge » Tue Mar 04, 2014 4:58 pm

seem to be busy reporting experience all the time
YES! its as simple as that!
There can be a "sense" of an observer of a thinker of the thought at times. Or maybe it is more becoming aware of a space in which they arise?
So, is there an I that observers, what is it that 'experiences' in DE? What can become 'more aware', Describe what is found from Direct experience please. x
"The bad news is you're falling, the good news is theres no ground" Trungpa

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Hecate
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Re: Thread for Hecate

Postby Hecate » Wed Mar 05, 2014 8:08 pm

Hi Smudge,

No there isn't an "I" that observes and experiences. I was trying to "catch" it. Now it appears to be in my head, then in my stomach. From DE, there is a cold sensation on my eyelids when cycling or a warmer sensation at the back of my eyes where the sense of observer seems to reside. There can be an illusion of "sitting back and observing" which in DE is only my back against the chair, a certain relaxation of muscles or more sensations deeper in my body which I hadn't quite noticed yet.

I don't know what can become more aware, but there does seem something to happen when I stop and notice. Maybe it is just a momentary pause in the thoughts reporting experience. I don't quite know...

Hx

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Re: Thread for Hecate

Postby smudge » Wed Mar 05, 2014 8:46 pm

There can be an illusion of "sitting back and observing" which in DE is only my back against the chair,
2 things to investigate directly here. First: investigate this 'illusion' whats really going on then, how come the illusion happens?
Second thing to investigate is is the back and the chair really experienced? OR is back and chair a thought image, LOOK, isn't there just bare sensations in DE?

I notice when asked what the" I" is you talk about you refer to body a lot, take time to really know that there is no I in the body. explore, if you had no arm would it still be you, no leg, no torso, no head..
but there does seem something to happen when I stop and notice. Maybe it is just a momentary pause in the thoughts reporting experience. I don't quite know
So keep looking. There is stopping happening...and noticing happening...Any sign of an I doing any of it or being there to be noticed???

Good to be thorough,
S x
"The bad news is you're falling, the good news is theres no ground" Trungpa

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Hecate
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Re: Thread for Hecate

Postby Hecate » Wed Mar 05, 2014 9:35 pm

Hi Smudge,
First: investigate this 'illusion' whats really going on then, how come the illusion happens
I am not sure where the illusion comes from. There is sensations and thinking and "something" where all that happens but nothing that makes it happening. The body seems to be containing the sensations, though where it exactly begins or end I cannot say. So no doer, but a witness maybe. But that witness doesn't reside in the body either. I really don't know where it comes from. I notice that there is upset arising as if it is really important that there is this witness, even if it were the world witnessing. Something needs to be witnessed...
Second thing to investigate is is the back and the chair really experienced? OR is back and chair a thought image, LOOK, isn't there just bare sensations in DE?
The back and the chair are the ideas put on certain sensations. In DE there is warmth and pressure.

Sorry - bit stuck here - again... :-/
Hecate


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