I Need an Experienced Guide

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Re: I Need an Experienced Guide

Postby NoOneHome » Mon Feb 24, 2014 5:51 pm

Hi Ilona,

Regarding my time in nature, you said:
It's a good time to spend an hour in nature, observing how everything moves and wiggles interdependently with everything else. Just sit somewhere and watch the movement of totality. See how it includes everything- wind, clouds, trees, people, grass, sensations, thoughts, focus... - all moves.
So I took the dog to the park. It was too cold and windy to just sit, so we walked around until my face was frozen. I looked at how everything moves as you described.
Is there anything that is making this move?
I didn’t see any evidence of a cause of all the movement.
Is there anything in experience, that is a doer?
There is no direct evidence of a doer. Just thoughts that claim that “I” am the doer. But there is no proof that the thoughts are correct.
How about daydreaming, is this something you do or it too happens like all the rest?
It too happens like the rest.
Is there a boundary that separates whole movement into tiny pockets of separate selves?
The perimeters of bodies are interpreted by the mind as such boundaries, but those divisions seem somewhat arbitrary and conceptual.

My mind was resisting this nature excursion for most of the time because it was so cold and I’m not really into nature. But it was useful because towards the end it reinforced the understanding that I need to focus on using direct experience to break down the assumptions on which the belief in a self is based.

Brent

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Re: I Need an Experienced Guide

Postby Ilona » Tue Feb 25, 2014 8:58 am

Yea, your own direct experience is where you look for answers to your own questions. Good stuff.

Sit quietly with closed eyes for a minute. Find the boundary that separates here from there. Is there a line that divides this from that? Is distant sound heard out there or here? Where are the boundaries of here?
Can you know how big this body is without reference to thought or memory? When you feel sensation in the foot, how do you know it's foot, without memory?
Is it body that experiences or body is a label on certain sensations that are experienced?

How about with eyes open, have a look.

Sending love.
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Re: I Need an Experienced Guide

Postby NoOneHome » Tue Feb 25, 2014 4:39 pm

Hi Ilona,
Sit quietly with closed eyes for a minute. Find the boundary that separates here from there. Is there a line that divides this from that?
There is no discernable line or boundary. Any imagined boundary is based on a remembered visual distinction between the body and other objects.
Is distant sound heard out there or here?
There is no way to tell where the distant sound is coming from other than by relating it to previous similar sounds for which other information was available (like supplementary visual information).
Where are the boundaries of here?
There are none except concepts.
Can you know how big this body is without reference to thought or memory?
Not with the eyes closed.
When you feel sensation in the foot, how do you know it's foot, without memory?
The only way to know it is from the foot is to remember previous sensations that felt similar and were correlated with a visual information regarding a stimulus.
Is it body that experiences or body is a label on certain sensations that are experienced?
The body is just a label applied to a group of sensations.
How about with eyes open, have a look.
When the eyes are open, there is a correlation of visual information with what is sensed with the other senses, and this leads to a definition of the body’s perimeter and “at me”, “near me”, or “far from me” based on the visual distance from the stimulus.

On a different topic, I wanted to mention that life has been getting busy and this causes stress because I start losing my focus on the investigation. I get sucked into life events and start identifying with thoughts and emotions. I’ve been trying to “zoom out” as you described in a previous post about watching a movie, but I can go long stretches without thinking to do that, sometimes it is not as effective as I would like, and often the mind says I don't have time to zoom out because there is too much to do while zoomed in. I was wondering if you have any suggestions on how to avoid getting wrapped up in the “life movie” so much.

Thanks,

Brent

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Re: I Need an Experienced Guide

Postby Ilona » Tue Feb 25, 2014 9:37 pm

Good investigation. Now let's look closer, what is relationship between experience and concepts? Does description of feeling, sensation inform anything about actual experience?

And don't try to zoom out, dive right in instead, experience what is happening fully, notice how everything is moving simultaneously. Are you doing this?

You describe zooming as a painful exercise. It's not a trick, you just look at what is here, present, without trying to see something else. What is here now happening right this moment? Any evidence that you are making this happen, moving all ?

There is no time, but this time now. There is always enough of now, it's limitless :)) can not run out of now.


Sending love.
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Re: I Need an Experienced Guide

Postby NoOneHome » Wed Feb 26, 2014 2:37 am

Hi Ilona,
Now let's look closer, what is relationship between experience and concepts? Does description of feeling, sensation inform anything about actual experience?
I’m not sure if I understand what you mean by “inform”. Descriptions of feelings and sensations are useful for communicating experiences to another person, but those descriptions, and concepts in general, don’t actually impact what is experienced.
And don't try to zoom out, dive right in instead, experience what is happening fully, notice how everything is moving simultaneously. Are you doing this?
I am not responsible for what is happening, if that is what you mean. Although I still usually “feel” like I’m responsible for my own actions.
What is here now happening right this moment?
I’m writing on the computer and hearing people talk in the other room. Lots of typing here. My legs are crossed. My back is hunched. Trying to think what else to write…
Any evidence that you are making this happen, moving all ?
No direct evidence. But the feeling is still there that it is me in control of my body and (to a lesser extent) my mind. I can’t say for sure, but the feeling may have gotten weaker over recent days.
There is no time, but this time now. There is always enough of now, it's limitless :)) can not run out of now.
I understand that, but when I’m wrapped up in my thoughts, I still tend to think that I don’t have enough time to get everything done. When I step back from the thoughts, I’m able to stop believing them, but until I step back I continue to believe.

Thanks, Ilona!

Brent

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Re: I Need an Experienced Guide

Postby Ilona » Wed Feb 26, 2014 9:14 am

Yeah, this "feel like I'm doing it" is confusing. But it's just a feeling, believed to be a doer!
It's like "I feel like Christmas" - what Christmas? Sensation of Christmas mood becomes something else?

Can you see how naming objects solidifies them into forms and shapes, names "become" things?

When you say- I'm wrapped up in thoughts, is that what is actually happening? Is it I that gets wrapped up? Or I is another thought, then followed by another thought, and here we have an illusion of I that is in cocoon of thought? What is actually happening?
Can one thought wrap another thought?
Does a thought think?

Over to you!
Sending love.
Truth realized will set you free.
http://ilonaciunaite.com/book

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Re: I Need an Experienced Guide

Postby NoOneHome » Thu Feb 27, 2014 2:40 am

Hi Ilona,
Yeah, this "feel like I'm doing it" is confusing. But it's just a feeling, believed to be a doer! It's like "I feel like Christmas" - what Christmas? Sensation of Christmas mood becomes something else?
I can see that when step back from life events and look very closely.
Can you see how naming objects solidifies them into forms and shapes, names "become" things?
Yes, I see that.
When you say- I'm wrapped up in thoughts, is that what is actually happening? Is it I that gets wrapped up? Or I is another thought, then followed by another thought, and here we have an illusion of I that is in cocoon of thought? What is actually happening?
Can one thought wrap another thought? Does a thought think?
It is exactly as you described. The thoughts just come in a sequence, building a story. It creates an illusion of a person with concerns. The problem is that it is a very convincing illusion.

Thoughts can’t wrap one another. A thought cannot think.

But despite this understanding, I still have a hard time not worrying about things in my life. I see that the worries are just thoughts, but I feel compelled to worry about bad things happening so I am prepared. I keep investing energy in the illusion of control because I can’t escape the feeling that if I don’t then things could go horribly wrong :(

Brent

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Re: I Need an Experienced Guide

Postby Ilona » Thu Feb 27, 2014 11:53 pm

http://www.foundalis.com/phi/chessillusion.jpg

This is a very convincing illusion. Have a look for yourself till you know, if the colour is the same or not. It does not stop being perceived differently, even if you know and tested. So I illusion is convincing, knowing that it's illusion does not make it less convincing. It's the knowing part and seeing what is actually happening is what makes that illusion seen through.

What is a story built of? Thoughts about thoughts about thoughts... Feelings get triggered, more thoughts. Does this foundation look serious? Thought story goes on, belief in it's importance and seriousness gets dropped.

Ok, let's look at wanting control. The deal with control is that there is no control and never was, other then wanting control. This wanting is closely connected to wanting security and acceptance. Can you notice this mechanism working? Does worrying or not worrying change anything that is happening? Right now, is there control? What is not effortless?

It's ok to drop the worrier, life is not going to stop and things will be done.

Sending love.
Truth realized will set you free.
http://ilonaciunaite.com/book

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Re: I Need an Experienced Guide

Postby NoOneHome » Fri Feb 28, 2014 2:12 am

Hi Ilona,

Thanks for posting even though it was late for you. You are very generous with your time.
This is a very convincing illusion. Have a look for yourself till you know, if the colour is the same or not. It does not stop being perceived differently, even if you know and tested.
Yes, that illusion is very convincing. I can’t get my mind to see the two squares as the same color unless I cover up the surroundings.
So I illusion is convincing, knowing that it's illusion does not make it less convincing. It's the knowing part and seeing what is actually happening is what makes that illusion seen through.
Yes, I need to keep working on looking at what is happening and seeing that there is no one doing anything.
What is a story built of? Thoughts about thoughts about thoughts... Feelings get triggered, more thoughts. Does this foundation look serious? Thought story goes on, belief in it's importance and seriousness gets dropped.
Your description of how stories are generated is very accurate.
Ok, let's look at wanting control. The deal with control is that there is no control and never was, other then wanting control. This wanting is closely connected to wanting security and acceptance. Can you notice this mechanism working?
I see the connection between control, security, and acceptance. I see that there is no control because there is no one to exert it. The problem is that it feels like there is control because it still feels like I can do stuff, even though if I look closely, I see there is no one doing it. When I’m not looking closely, the illusion regains its strength.
Does worrying or not worrying change anything that is happening?
Worrying itself doesn’t change anything. But part of the illusion is that “I” need to predict all the possible bad things that could happen so I can plan how to deal with them. If I don’t then I fear that I won’t be prepared if they happen. It seems like the actions that I take to address the bad things before they happen help to mitigate disaster.
Right now, is there control?
As I said, it seems like there is unless I am looking closely.
What is not effortless?
Life is like a dream in which you are working your butt off. It can feel like a lot of work until you wake up and realize you didn’t actually do anything.
It's ok to drop the worrier, life is not going to stop and things will be done.
I want to believe you, but it feels dangerous! Plus, if “I” don’t exist, then “I” can’t control whether or not worrying happens!

Brent

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Re: I Need an Experienced Guide

Postby Ilona » Fri Feb 28, 2014 8:19 am

Worrying itself doesn’t change anything. But part of the illusion is that “I” need to predict all the possible bad things that could happen so I can plan how to deal with them. If I don’t then I fear that I won’t be prepared if they happen. It seems like the actions that I take to address the bad things before they happen help to mitigate disaster.
Ok, so illusion is that I needs to be protected. What from?
Illusion is that if mind does not create and solve imaginary problems of imaginary future, there is a feeling of fear. Fear of what?

What is the worst that can happen if you stop worrying?

You did not answer my 2 questions- is there any evidence control NOW?
What is not effortless?

Please take a look and answer. :)

Sending love.
Truth realized will set you free.
http://ilonaciunaite.com/book

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Re: I Need an Experienced Guide

Postby NoOneHome » Sat Mar 01, 2014 3:29 am

Hi Ilona,

I don't have time to do a full post today. I'll get back to you tomorrow.

Brent

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Re: I Need an Experienced Guide

Postby NoOneHome » Sat Mar 01, 2014 5:14 pm

Hi Ilona,
Ok, so illusion is that I needs to be protected. What from?
From bad things happening. For example, a project at work may go badly, someone may feel that I have let them down, I may lose a lot of money, etc.
Illusion is that if mind does not create and solve imaginary problems of imaginary future, there is a feeling of fear. Fear of what?
Fear that bad things will happen as described above.
What is the worst that can happen if you stop worrying?
If I don’t worry, then I won’t try to anticipate what bad things may happen, and then I may not be successful in preventing them from happening.
You did not answer my 2 questions- is there any evidence control NOW?
Sorry, I thought I answered them, but I guess I wasn’t clear. There is no evidence of actual control now. But it does still appear like there is control if I don’t look closely enough.
What is not effortless?
Nothing. But it can appear to take effort if I don’t look closely enough at the process.

Brent

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Re: I Need an Experienced Guide

Postby Ilona » Sat Mar 01, 2014 10:48 pm

Ok, let's go and meet the fear.

Describe in detail how the fear mechanism works. I will give you some questions to guide you.
First thing let's see what triggers fear.

Remember something bad form past, think of what is scary now, (now now) and visualise some scary future. What brings up most fear?
Where is it felt in the body? What size and shape is the sensation?
Notice how much energy is being felt there.

If it's not labelled fear, but seen just as raw energy movement, does it change?

Examine it form another side. What kind of mechanism is that? How does this program work? Is it possible, it's a friend?
Have a look, when fear is intense, what is behind it? Just like of you wanted to take a peek. What is there?



Sending love.
Truth realized will set you free.
http://ilonaciunaite.com/book

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Re: I Need an Experienced Guide

Postby NoOneHome » Sun Mar 02, 2014 1:47 pm

Hi Ilona,
Remember something bad form past, think of what is scary now, (now now) and visualise some scary future.
From the past: When I had a heated conflict at work with another worker.

Now: My biggest concern right now is that I won’t be able to finish my next big project on time because I have too many other things to do in addition to the project itself.

Future: For the project after the next one, it is going to be a challenge to figure out how to do what I need to do, and I’m worried that I won’t be able to figure it out.
What brings up most fear?
I think it is a combination of the “now” and “future” fears described above, and can be summarized as follows: I am worried that I will be judged negatively when it is determined that I am unable to meet my company’s expectations for what I should be able to accomplish in the time that I have available.
Where is it felt in the body?
Tension in my chest and face. Tingling in my skin all over. In the past when the fear has gotten really intense, I feel like I want to jump out of my own skin and run away from the anxiety.
What size and shape is the sensation?
Notice how much energy is being felt there.
When it is moderate strength, it is an oval that covers my chest and face. When it is intense as described above, it covers my whole body. My scalp can get really tense and produce a headache. If I don’t keep the fear under control, I sometimes get a migraine.
If it's not labeled fear, but seen just as raw energy movement, does it change?
It makes it seem less bothersome. But this may be because right now I’m not in a particularly heightened state of fear. My fear intensity tends to go up and down, and since yesterday it has been lower. To do this analysis for you, I’ve had to jack it up by focusing my attention on it.
Examine it form another side. What kind of mechanism is that? How does this program work?
I don’t understand what you are saying here. Can you put this another way?

Is it possible, it's a friend?
I HATE the fear. The only way it can be considered a friend is to say that it drives me to address potential issues earlier, which reduces the probably that something bad will actually happen. But I still HATE it because it sucks up so much of my time and energy and turns life from something that should be enjoyable into a nightmare.
Have a look, when fear is intense, what is behind it? Just like of you wanted to take a peek. What is there?
There is nothing behind it. And that makes it seem unimportant. But I’m scared to ignore it because I don’t want to fail to prevent bad things from happening. I should mention, however, that I’ve been getting very fed up with being scared all the time, and with your comments about not worrying, I’m starting to think it may be worth refusing to allow myself to worry for a while and see what the consequences are. Maybe it is worth the risk to allow bad things to potentially happen if that means I can be much happier. But I don’t think I’m quite ready to take that leap.

Brent

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Re: I Need an Experienced Guide

Postby Ilona » Mon Mar 03, 2014 9:21 am

I HATE the fear. The only way it can be considered a friend is to say that it drives me to address potential issues earlier, which reduces the probably that something bad will actually happen. But I still HATE it because it sucks up so much of my time and energy and turns life from something that should be enjoyable into a nightmare.
Wow, no wonder that fear has a grip on you, you feed it with the hate! More you resist it, the bigger it gets. More you want to get rid of it, the stickier it gets. Are you sure you want the fear to be the enemy which takes over all?

If not, then make friends with it. Fear is a mechanism, it's only trying to protect. It's doing it's job perfectly. Can you see that? So hating it is like hating the lock on the door that you yourself put there to guard the precious thing behind it.

Yes, you see, when looked behind, there is nothing there. Look again. There is nothing there that needs to be protected. And yes, it's unimportant! You see it, but dismiss it as too simple. Stare at the nothing, see it, see how pointless is to protect that which can never be harmed. It's ok to put the walls down, there is no self there that needs to be closed away. It's all imagined. Just like images about the future are just that, images, mind created images.

The whole tension is waste of energy. It's ok to relax. Nothing can ever happen that is not ripe and ready for happening. All situations and conditions are ripe- then here it is- happening right now. The rest is a thought story about things that are not happening. The worry about imagined future is real sensation, based in unreal situations in the head. Are you willing to entertain this circus further or are you ready to let go of this mind gymnastics that is only taking you away from being at peace?

Your move. :)

Sending love
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http://ilonaciunaite.com/book


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