Am I there yet?

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EmptySet00
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Re: Am I there yet?

Postby EmptySet00 » Fri Feb 28, 2014 2:55 pm

Nope, no doubts about it, except sometimes still getting a "really?", followed by, "But I still feel like me!", then a bunch of thoughts trying to figure out if there's something I missed or got wrong. But that's typical of how this mind works- skeptical, asking questions about this and that. Still can't find an "I" that's not a thought pattern.

Man, that identification process is persistent! I think I had an expectation that it would just vanish. I sense a big trap in all of this- I wrote another little story as a journal entry, about Seeker unmasking the Master Illusionist, then seeing a bunch of statues in the hall of mirrors, some with people bowing in front of them. Seeker decides she's one of them- an Enlightened Person. Then Seeker becomes a statue herself and is trapped.

The identification process now feels like a trap in general. Life is just smoother and makes more sense when it's not there. I know it's not going to stop any time soon, but it's feeling increasingly uncomfortable. I remember reading somebody else's post here about wanting to shake it off- "Ewww, story. Uggh!" I know there's nothing to be done but watch the whole thing unfold, but there can be this sensation of "Ick!" It's kind of funny in a way.

The implications of this are still being worked out. In an article on your site you talked about "falling", how all kinds of assumptions related to "I"- ness come up and get shaken loose. I've been writing a lot here because there isn't anyone around in "real life" who would understand and not think I'm crazy. It would be nice to have company through this process. Is that available over there in Blue People Land?

ES
It's all fun and games until somebody loses an "I"!

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Ilona
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Re: Am I there yet?

Postby Ilona » Fri Feb 28, 2014 8:35 pm

I'd say you almost good to go to blue people's world, but before that let's clear this trap of identification. You are spot on saying that it's a process. Yes, it is happening by itself. Are you the watcher? You say that there is nothing to be done, but watch this all unfold? Looks like there is some little gap between the watcher and liver and life. Or I am misinterpreting something?

What is that is bothered by this identification process? What is behind that?

Even if you know the answer, have a look. Describe what you see.

Sending love
Truth realized will set you free.
http://ilonaciunaite.com

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EmptySet00
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Re: Am I there yet?

Postby EmptySet00 » Sat Mar 01, 2014 12:40 am

Ilona,

Yes, there is a small felt gap sometimes between my experience and a "watcher" that's standing just a bit away. I don't believe there really is a separate "watcher", it's just another aspect of experience. But it's related to a tendency of mine to stand back from things rather than jump in wholeheartedly. It's fundamentally a fear and a lack of acceptance.

The trouble about the identification process is that when it's there, life feels cramped and confined. It's much more pleasant when it's not there. I think this is also related to a lack of acceptance (that the identification process is going to crop up sometimes.)

The issues that remain for me are not around belief or around seeing. They're around acceptance. And if you want to work through my acceptance issues, we could be here into next year :) That just hasn't been on the agenda most of the time for me, from childhood 'til now.

ES
It's all fun and games until somebody loses an "I"!

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Re: Am I there yet?

Postby EmptySet00 » Sat Mar 01, 2014 6:02 pm

After stumbling around for a while, I'm figuring out what works concerning the acceptance thing. It's very back- to- basics. Some basic mindfulness/ just paying attention, whether as formal meditation or just paying attention to whatever's going on in the present. It's especially important when things start to feel unpleasant, whenever how I'm feeling seems like a problem. Usually it's "all in my head"- a thought loop + an emotion. Just letting the thoughts slow down and the emotions rise to the surface breaks the logjam, the sense of "stuckness". Emotions and thoughts aren't that different from weather or music- fast, then slow, quiet, then loud, stormy, then calm. Best thing to do is just stay present and pay attention. So much suffering is caught up in thoughts about wanting things to be different- but of course, that's what you've been trying to tell me all along! :)
It's all fun and games until somebody loses an "I"!

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Ilona
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Re: Am I there yet?

Postby Ilona » Sat Mar 01, 2014 10:02 pm

Yes, all this grand show is going on, all this is happening, just so, just because, in full variety and richness. There is a lot happening. But is it ever happening not now?

Best thing to do is stay in the present? Really? Is there ever not now? The content changes, but it's not in the past or future. No need to try to stay, it's not the case where it slips away. thinking happens. A thought arises "I need to get back"

Notice, now, right now. That's it. Now

Wait for the next thought.

Notice silence.
What's in it?,

Is there anyone there that wants something different then what is?


Sending love.
Truth realized will set you free.
http://ilonaciunaite.com

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Re: Am I there yet?

Postby EmptySet00 » Sun Mar 02, 2014 5:53 pm

Ilona,

Yes, I know any thoughts are occurring in the present, even if they are thoughts about the past or future. But the lack of acceptance is always a thought, either "It was better in the past", or "Maybe this could be better in the future", or just "This could/ should be different". Without thoughts, there is no lack of acceptance, and of course nobody there who wants anything different. "Me", "lack of acceptance", and "problem" are all thought patterns. That doesn't mean these thought patterns will go away, and especially not that they can be wished away- that's another form of wishing things were different! In present experience, without thoughts, there may be a (nonverbal) reaction to unpleasant sensations that's something like "This is unpleasant!", or "Yuck!", but not any "wishing things were different". Those "wishing things were different" thoughts are actually a lot like the lack of self- acceptance thoughts that brought me here in the first place! The present is as it is, and there's about as much point to wishing things were different from what they are now as there is to beating up on a "self" that's just another thought- pattern.

(Again- REALLY? Sometimes takes a lot to get stuff through my thick skull. "That can't be how the world works! Of course I'm here and of course there's a past and a future that aren't just thoughts and of course things could be different!!!" These kinds of thoughts keep popping up- just plain disbelief, without any good reasons attached.)

ES
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Re: Am I there yet?

Postby Ilona » Mon Mar 03, 2014 9:28 am

Looks like there is still a tendency to believe thoughts.
So let's look here- are thoughts telling truth?
Is description of what is happening or what is not happening- truth about how things are?

A thought comes "this should be different" - is it true?
What if all is as it should be always? What if the only thing in the way if seeing that believing that thoughts say something true?

Can you trust that thoughts are always telling truth?
I'm not talking about practical thoughts, but about thoughts that tell how life works, how things are. How do you know that something could be different?

For a day catch should and shouldn't thoughts and examine them - is it true? Can you absolutely know that it's true? Is it possible that it's not true?

Play with it. And at the end of the day write to me what you noticed about truth and thoughts :)

Sending love.
Truth realized will set you free.
http://ilonaciunaite.com

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Re: Am I there yet?

Postby EmptySet00 » Tue Mar 04, 2014 4:10 am

Ilona,

I'm still playing with this one. My thoughts come in a few categories: descriptions of what's happening, memories, "I" thoughts that still come even though I know better :), desires, and judgements. Most of my judgements are negative, and they stick to all kinds of things, similar to how the identification thoughts work. Many of my thoughts about "how things work" are in the form of questions, and are related to feelings of doubt about my altered perspective. "No me- REALLY?" "Of course things could be different!" "Past, future, problems just thoughts- that's impossible!" "I'm just not advanced or 'spiritual' enough to reach the level of acceptance Ilona wants from me!" That last one was really good- "I", negative judgement, and lots of story all rolled into one thought! These thoughts are tied to feelings of doubt, but I haven't found any good reasons why things could be different, or should be different, or that "I", "past", "future", "problem" have existence outside of thoughts. On some level I know that the doubting thoughts aren't true, but all of this is very much against the grain of my conditioning. I'll report again tomorrow.

ES
It's all fun and games until somebody loses an "I"!

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Re: Am I there yet?

Postby EmptySet00 » Wed Mar 05, 2014 4:22 am

Ilona,

Still no "me", past, future, anything can or should be different that's not a thought! So many thoughts are just the doubting questions, over and over. A lot of second guessing- "Am I missing something here?" Arguments with myself that go nowhere. But the arguments are coming from the same place as all the other thoughts, just the stream of consciousness. Sometimes it feels like I'm trying to fight thoughts, but then I realize it's just more thoughts pushing against other thoughts. The basic objection is that this is so different from how most people around me view reality.
In other news, I'm getting caught up in story less often and am less disturbed by it when it does happen. It feels like doubt is now much more of a block, almost like it took the place of story as the uncomfortable thing. So many layers of resistance. Sometimes it's frustrating. But it also feels like something that has its own momentum and is moving at its own pace, just like everything else, of course :)

ES
It's all fun and games until somebody loses an "I"!

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Ilona
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Re: Am I there yet?

Postby Ilona » Wed Mar 05, 2014 8:41 am

Great stuff! Yes, there is a LOT to clean up after, things, situations come up to be seen and when seen and accepted, patterns drop. Some drop easy, some not. But when you look back it becomes clear, that some patterns are simply no longer here..
The basic objection is that this is so different from how most people around me view reality.
And how do you know that? What informs you about how people around you view reality? Is it not your thoughts about other people's thoughts? And these thoughts tell truth of course, right?

Can you hear other people's thoughts? Can you even know that they are thinking? Question that. See how all world is created in the mind. One thought at a time, one after another..
Are there independent selfs in other humans?


Sending love.
Truth realized will set you free.
http://ilonaciunaite.com

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EmptySet00
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Re: Am I there yet?

Postby EmptySet00 » Thu Mar 06, 2014 4:14 am

No, I don't know what's in anyone else's thoughts. I don't even know for sure that I'm not the only one having any thoughts, and the rest of you are very cleverly designed to imitate human beings with thoughts similar to mine :)

I've been just noticing thoughts come and go more, like I'm used to doing with emotions. I'll write more later, tomorrow maybe. Bedtime!
It's all fun and games until somebody loses an "I"!

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Ilona
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Re: Am I there yet?

Postby Ilona » Thu Mar 06, 2014 8:38 am

Sweet! Yeah, I can only know these thoughts and what they say about other people's thoughts. No need to believe thoughts!

Are there separate selves in other humans?
Look closely at family members, strangers, friends. Are they acting and reacting in tune with the movement of the whole or out of containers of separate selves?

Sending love.
Truth realized will set you free.
http://ilonaciunaite.com

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EmptySet00
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Re: Am I there yet?

Postby EmptySet00 » Fri Mar 07, 2014 4:18 am

There are separate human bodies, but they are interacting with whatever's around them, and often with each other. We're all breathing the same air and held down by the same gravity. We each have personalities, but none of us are totally consistent in their behavior all the time. I can't know whether other people think of themselves as separate selves or not, but many people express beliefs in a personal soul or behave in ways that are about defending their identity. On that last one, I behave defensively too, but also see a contradiction with understanding that there's no solid, consistent "I" to defend. Even the stories keep shifting.

ES
It's all fun and games until somebody loses an "I"!

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EmptySet00
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Re: Am I there yet?

Postby EmptySet00 » Sat Mar 08, 2014 4:06 am

Another thing I've been noticing about relating to other people- I'm still taking things personally! Maybe less so than when I started this process. When I recognize it going on, it can be jarring. "Hmmm... why am I upset about this?" Many parts of my unconscious still aren't convinced. :)
It's all fun and games until somebody loses an "I"!

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Ilona
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Re: Am I there yet?

Postby Ilona » Sat Mar 08, 2014 9:27 am

Look at this:

Separation is only a thought about separation.
In the view, when you look at other human bodies, are they separate from the view? Are they existing independently of environment? Are humans separate from life? Or they are all expression of life?
What moves bodies?
What moves this body?
What is this label "body" pointing to?

With closed eyes, find the boundary of this body, is it clear? Is there a line that separates this body from outside?
Is there a body, without memory of it?
What is that we call body?

Write what you notice.

Sending love
Truth realized will set you free.
http://ilonaciunaite.com


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