Am I there yet?

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Ilona
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Re: Am I there yet?

Postby Ilona » Sun Feb 09, 2014 9:31 am

Hmm, was I ever in charge?
What is that claims position of general manager?


Take your time, no worries.

Sending love.
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http://ilonaciunaite.com/book

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EmptySet00
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Re: Am I there yet?

Postby EmptySet00 » Sun Feb 09, 2014 4:04 pm

Yes, this one may take a while. Will respond when ready.
It's all fun and games until somebody loses an "I"!

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Re: Am I there yet?

Postby EmptySet00 » Sun Feb 09, 2014 10:35 pm

Hmm, was I ever in charge?
What is that claims position of general manager?
No, "I" was never in charge. Lots of things happened on unconscious autopilot, not just the obvious things like breathing and heartbeat, but also sometimes things like what kind of cereal to eat for breakfast or what room to walk into next. Once in a while there would be a conscious thought judging an unconscious decision "wrong", followed by "What am I thinking? Why did I do that?" (Answer, I wasn't thinking, and I did whatever it was based on an unconscious impulse. But that's not how I used to think about it.)

As for things that were considered more consciously, sometimes the decision was just a quick thought, "I'll do this". Maybe the thought preceded or motivated the action, maybe not. But if there was no conflict about the decision, it was just a quick thought, action sequence. "I" didn't control the thought or action, but if you had asked me what I had just done I would have said, "I decided to do (whatever)".

The most interesting case is decisions where there is conflict or uncertainty. One thought, "Do this". Another thought, "Do that". More thoughts about "this" and "that". Uncomfortable indecision feelings. Then eventually "this" or "that" would seem like a better idea. The thought processes leading up to the decision weren't in anybody's control, but again I would have said, "I decided to do this, not that".

"I" pops up all the time to claim just about every experience, not just decisions. Hunger = "I'm hungry". Thirst = "I'm thirsty". "I'm happy", "I'm sad", "I'm bored", etc. And, of course, superego instruction = "I should". Thanks, Mom + Dad. This seems something that's partly deliberately programmed into us. I remember being told as a child, "Control yourself!". But it's also because thoughts are mostly verbal, and we don't say, "This/ here/ now is enjoying the sunset", it's "I'm enjoying the sunset". We learn to use "I" to communicate direct experience to others. Then verbal thinking attaches "I" to pretty much all direct experiences. It's this thought process that claims to be "me", claims to be "in charge", but is also the victim and sufferer. Now it feels like a mental tic- experience followed by "I'm experiencing". Action accompanied or followed by "I'm acting". The "I" is superfluous, but it's also a very longstanding habit!

ES
It's all fun and games until somebody loses an "I"!

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Re: Am I there yet?

Postby Ilona » Mon Feb 10, 2014 9:14 am

So what does the word I point to?
Is there a doer, thinker I behind it?

:)
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Re: Am I there yet?

Postby EmptySet00 » Mon Feb 10, 2014 3:13 pm

So what does the word I point to?
Is there a doer, thinker I behind it?

:)
"I"/"me" sure are slippery words! Sometimes they refer to current direct experience ("I"m hungry"). Sometimes they refer to the story ("I was born on <date> in <location>"). But they do not refer to an agent, or anything apart from direct experience and thoughts. There isn't an "I" doing, thinking, experiencing. "I" gets added as a tag because thoughts are verbal and language is structured how it is. Having "I" in the stream of consciousness all the time used to be completely unquestioned. Now it really does seem like a tic, a persistent habit built up over a lifetime that just keeps popping up. A mental twitch added on to every action and experience.
It's all fun and games until somebody loses an "I"!

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Re: Am I there yet?

Postby Ilona » Mon Feb 10, 2014 4:35 pm

It is not, really. I is an empty thought and is part of language, it's useful and practical in communicating. It shows direction of what a story is about. I'm hungry- is a label for feeling hunger, that is a raw sensation in the stomach area, that signals the food is needed. It's fine to use language as it is intended- I'm hungry does not need to replace with anything else. Word I can be used, but when it is known, that it's just a label, a tag, everyone is calling themselves I, it's not confusing. If it's seen that I is an empty word, it is clear that the word does not become an entity..

It's like you see a chair in front, word chair is a concept, it's useful. But can you sit on ot?
You can't drink of a word cup. It's a label for an object.
With I is the same, only it was assumed, that I is not a label, but a thing, an entity, a manager in charge.

Label of experience is not experience. Language is a net of conceptual overlay over experience.
What is I in experience- a sense of being, being, as it is now this very moment. This being (verb) is it I?

Sending love.
Truth realized will set you free.
http://ilonaciunaite.com/book

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Re: Am I there yet?

Postby EmptySet00 » Tue Feb 11, 2014 4:07 am


What is I in experience- a sense of being, being, as it is now this very moment. This being (verb) is it I?
Yes, there is a sense of being, but it's not separate from what's being experienced. If I feel cold, there's a sense of being cold. That's different from a sense of being warm. Every experience gives the "sense of being" a different feeling, a different flavor. Being angry is different from being happy. So there's a sense of being, but it's not an "I" separate from experience. And it changes over time. Even the sense of being that's there when sound asleep and not dreaming is the sense of being asleep, the sense of a lack of sensations. It's very different from the sense of being wide awake and alert. There seems to be continuity in the stream of consciousness, but it's constantly changing. You could call the feeling of being present and experiencing whatever is going on here and now "I", but that "I" now isn't the same "I" as last year, or last week, or a few minutes ago. It's a snapshot of a shifting pattern.
It's all fun and games until somebody loses an "I"!

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Re: Am I there yet?

Postby Ilona » Tue Feb 11, 2014 12:04 pm

what you describe is content of experience, it is constantly changing. being cold, being hot, being this or that- is about ever changing states. happy, unhappy, asleep, awake- it's all content. like a picture on tv screen is constantly changing, but it does not affect the screen. screen is space on which pixels dance, creating all kinds of images that mind translates into meaningful information.

so look what is here underneath the movement of states. focus on perceiving itself, ignore the content, just see how something is still and silent underneath the experienced.

look at what is looking.
what is there?

sending love.
Truth realized will set you free.
http://ilonaciunaite.com/book

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Re: Am I there yet?

Postby EmptySet00 » Tue Feb 11, 2014 2:51 pm

Yes, there is always awareness, but it is always awareness of something. Often I'm so caught up in the "something" that I'm not consciously aware of awareness. But if I'm not completely caught up in the experience, I can notice the fact of awareness. This isn't what I usually think of as "I", though.
It's all fun and games until somebody loses an "I"!

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Re: Am I there yet?

Postby Ilona » Tue Feb 11, 2014 5:22 pm

ha, exactly. awareness is not i.
so what is i? what does this word point to?
Truth realized will set you free.
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Re: Am I there yet?

Postby EmptySet00 » Tue Feb 11, 2014 11:42 pm

so what is i? what does this word point to?
OK, process of elimination.

Not body actions.
Not thoughts.
Not emotions.
Not will or decisions.
Not awareness/ what's here now.

That leaves the story. "I" is a character in the story. The story that comes from memories and anticipations of the future. Nothing that's in present experience at all, except as a thought. An idea, that only connects to other thoughts and ideas. A figment of the imagination.

ES
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Re: Am I there yet?

Postby Ilona » Wed Feb 12, 2014 8:42 am

Yes, I is an idea, a concept, a word that is useful in communication when sharing story about this character.
But story is story, is not I, it's about I. Can you see that?

A figment of imagination- yes.
How does it feel to see this?
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Re: Am I there yet?

Postby EmptySet00 » Wed Feb 12, 2014 10:37 pm

A figment of imagination- yes.
How does it feel to see this?
At times, not that different. It's surprised me how much of my life was already lived without the "I". Concentrating on something or getting really caught up in present experience just don't leave room for "I". Didn't realize that before investigating a range of experiences, though.

At other times, very freeing. Emotions run their course more easily. No more self- criticism. I don't get "stuck in my own head" with ruminating thoughts as often, although that still happens. Sometimes the thoughts calm down and not too much else is going on and there's a sense of relief, as if I had been carrying a burden but set it down. There's much less internal conflict, and less desire to get caught up in others' dramas.

At other times, the "sense of self" is still there, but it can be seen through immediately if caught. It's usually a physical tension or emotional "self- consciousness". Thoughts and feelings related to how I'm seen by others. It's not comfortable, but it still shows up.

Often feel caught between the new realizations and the very ingrained old thought and emotional patterns. Seems like there are a lot of things that have been shaken loose. It's a process of letting go, and there's a lot left to let go of.

ES
It's all fun and games until somebody loses an "I"!

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Re: Am I there yet?

Postby Ilona » Thu Feb 13, 2014 9:15 am

Yes, this is a process of letting go, accepting, surrendering to what is. It's not easy sometimes, but it's good to remember, that it's no step process. Noticing resistance and accepting it, letting it be here for a bit starts melting it. And when resistance ends, surrender happens, or should I say it's noticed. All is already accepted, it's already here. So noticing what is happening here now, this moment, as it is happening, is all that is needed to feel at home again.

Look closer at sense of self. What exactly is it? Where is it felt? When is it felt? Only when frustration arise or it's also felt in joy too? Is contraction = resistance = sense of self?

How would you describe that sense? Is there one? Is sense of being = sense of self?

Sending love.
Truth realized will set you free.
http://ilonaciunaite.com/book

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Re: Am I there yet?

Postby EmptySet00 » Thu Feb 13, 2014 6:43 pm

Look closer at sense of self. What exactly is it? Where is it felt? When is it felt? Only when frustration arise or it's also felt in joy too? Is contraction = resistance = sense of self?

How would you describe that sense? Is there one? Is sense of being = sense of self?

Sending love.
It's tension. Resistance. Usually felt in the belly or chest. Sometimes as a "suit of armor", a sense of there being a barrier between skin and outside world. A little residual fear. It happens when I'm worried about something, when in a situation that's provoking anxiety. It's like it's OK to "de- self" if things feel safe, basically OK, but more garden- variety worries, problem thought- patterns, provoke "sense of self". Sometimes it's recognized right away to be tension, not self, and dissolves with just the smallest flicker of conscious thought. Sometimes it goes on for a while, then an "I" thought comes up, then, "Oh, 'selfing'", then very conscious attention to here- now for a while. With enough patience, things melt eventually. Sometimes there's frustration about how long it's taking, or the fact that something else is demanding immediate attention, distracting from focus on "selfing"/"de- selfing". I know that "selfing" isn't really "self". But it's like an optical illusion that you know is an illusion, but you go back and forth between seeing the illusion pattern and seeing through it.

ES
It's all fun and games until somebody loses an "I"!


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