Could you pls guide me, Ilona?

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aubergine99
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Re: Could you pls guide me, Ilona?

Postby aubergine99 » Sun Sep 08, 2013 3:04 pm

Hi,

When you look at others, your closest people, strangers on the street, what do you see? Are there separated entities walking around? Describe the best you can.



I can only say, that through DE, I see separate bodies but thought labels and describes them differently now. I see life living itself as separate bodies in all its diversity. This is quite difficult to explain really. DE doesn’t change anything but thought arises with different content.

Taking DE to its basic level, I can see people as thought labels them, with unique descriptions, names etc. It would be almost impossible to relate to people in everyday life without this, I feel. What I am saying is only thought content has changed for me. I see life living itself through everyone – they are not choosing to act independently. With close relationships, I experience greater openness, compassion and freedom.

Brigitte

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Re: Could you pls guide me, Ilona?

Postby Ilona » Mon Sep 09, 2013 8:21 am

Nice! i'm glad to hear about more openness, compassion and freedom :)
Lets look a bit closer at the body.
In experience is there a line between this body and another body? Is there a specific feeling of being separate? What is separate from what?

Look this way- all that arises, all that is experienced appears in this field of perception, the view. In is view is anything separate? The other bodies and this body are experienced through senses, right? Do senses inform about separation? (Check with vision, hearing, smell, touch) or is it thoughts that tell ABOUT separate bodies?

In direct experience, is there a body? How is this body experienced? If you go to a wall and touch it, just place hand on it, close your eyes, is there anything that informs that there is a hand and a wall, without referring to thoughts and memory. In the sensation, is there a line between wall and hand? When you open eyes, does the sensation change?

Is it body that perceives?
What is that perceives?

Sending love.
Truth realized will set you free.
http://ilonaciunaite.com/book

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aubergine99
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Re: Could you pls guide me, Ilona?

Postby aubergine99 » Mon Sep 09, 2013 11:24 am

Good morning, Ilona,
In experience is there a line between this body and another body? Is there a specific feeling of being separate? What is separate from what?
No, there is no line between my body or another in experience. When I look at another person, all I can see is just the body with perhaps a background and foreground. One image only consisting of different shapes and colours. Thought arises to label and describe objects. There does seem to be a feeling of being separate but not prior to thoughts. Thoughts are still telling me that there is a body being perceived and a perceiver. The separation only occurs in thought mode not in experience however.
Look this way- all that arises, all that is experienced appears in this field of perception, the view. In is view is anything separate? The other bodies and this body are experienced through senses, right? Do senses inform about separation? (Check with vision, hearing, smell, touch) or is it thoughts that tell ABOUT separate bodies?


I totally see that senses tell it how it is (in experience) with no separation but thoughts come up with labels, description and lines of separation.
In direct experience, is there a body? How is this body experienced? If you go to a wall and touch it, just place hand on it, close your eyes, is there anything that informs that there is a hand and a wall, without referring to thoughts and memory. In the sensation, is there a line between wall and hand? When you open eyes, does the sensation change?


No, there is none. Even through perception, I am unable to perceive the body as a whole. I can see hands, feet, thighs, for example. I can perceive more of the body when looking in the mirror, but that is a reflection and not the actual body. If I put my hand on the wall and close my eyes, I only feel the sensation of something cool, smooth and hard but no sense of separation or that it is a wall. It is only thought telling me it is a wall. When I open my eyes, I again see an image with shape and colour, but immediately, thought tells me it is my hand on the wall.
Is it body that perceives?


No, body doesn’t perceive. When eyes are open, perception just happens automatically. The field of vision is flooded with an image through the sense of perception.
What is that perceives?
Perceiving happens in awareness. There is no-one or no-thing that perceives.

Sending love

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Re: Could you pls guide me, Ilona?

Postby Ilona » Mon Sep 09, 2013 6:44 pm

Excellent. It's a lot to explore and it's only a beginning.
What is that drives bodies, experiences, story, how does it all happen?

How do you see free will and control? What do you notice about trying to change, manage life?

Much love :)
Truth realized will set you free.
http://ilonaciunaite.com/book

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Re: Could you pls guide me, Ilona?

Postby aubergine99 » Tue Sep 10, 2013 4:17 pm

Hello,
What is that drives bodies, experiences, story, how does it all happen?
Life seems to be governed by the rules of cause and effect. This is true of the physical world as well as thoughts. The physical world is also subject to the laws of physics of which I know very little! I was rubbish at science at school. An action takes place which results as an effect. For example, a drunken driver ploughs into a vehicle driving the opposite way and a mother and child are killed. This consequence will lead to more actions and consequences (perhaps the husband of the deceased suffers from depression and unable to cope alone, goes on to neglect his other children who are then taken into care, who then go on to lead a possibly disadvantaged life). It’s easy to see what could happen in this event. That is how the world appears to work, with a multitude of scenarios, some relatively inconsequential and others possibly life-changing. I have always thought it a bit like a gigantic pinball machine, every ball (initiating action) interacting with another ball (a resulting/re-initiating action) and so on. One thing leads to another etc.

The same is true for thoughts. As children we may (or may not) be taught appropriate behaviour by our parents, influenced by our peers, by education, religion. As we grow up, we may be moulded by our social contacts, workplaces, environments, financial constraints, physical and mental impairments, governments and a host of other influences, constantly changing. All this conditioning happens automatically as a result of previous conditioning, born from the world of thoughts. All this determines how people act in everyday life.
How do you see free will and control? What do you notice about trying to change, manage life?
I don’t see any evidence of free will or control. I don’t recall having any choice to when, how and where I was born, to which parents, family etc. I wasn’t consulted as to my ethnicity, nationality, size, weight, colouring etc. I had no choice in my schooling or religious upbringing either. I thought I was good at sports and languages but I didn’t choose that - I thought I chose my friends but I now know I didn’t. We probably shared common interests and backgrounds, but I didn’t organize our friendship – it just happened automatically. The more I look into this, the more I see I had no control of my life. Even as an adult, I can see how I moved to London, had several jobs, moved to Brighton several years later, met my husband, moved away, had a child and then moved back again. All these events occurred as a result of certain conditions and thoughts which prompted more actions but were not of my choosing.

I feel I want some changes in my life but I can see that thought tells me that, and that also happens by itself. Certain conditions appear freely as a result of past actions and conditions, which then affect and influence other events, (maybe also thoughts and conditions), which result in more actions which bring about change. This is just life experiencing itself in the present moment – just as IT IS and how it is meant to be. Whatever is happening could not be any other way or else it would already be that way.

With regards to trying to change and manage life. It might be suggested that if we have no free will, we might as well do nothing or not even think about our actions. To that, I would say, just let nature take its course with more openness and less resistance (as life is flowing that way already). Thinking will continue happening anyway and actions will naturally follow.

So, after all my ramblings, I feel I have said enough. Sorry, if it sounds a bit like a text book (I have no control over that, it’s how I seem to function).

Sending love
Brigitte

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Re: Could you pls guide me, Ilona?

Postby Ilona » Tue Sep 10, 2013 10:10 pm

It's good to write what's in the head out on paper, or screen. Yes, everything depends on everything else. There is interconnectedness of causes and effects, but where is a line between cause and effect? It's all one movement, and what is happening righ now is IT. That's it. The IS.

Are you ready for the final questions? Or is there any doubt, at all.


Sending love.
Truth realized will set you free.
http://ilonaciunaite.com/book

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aubergine99
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Re: Could you pls guide me, Ilona?

Postby aubergine99 » Wed Sep 11, 2013 2:44 pm

Hi Ilona,
There is interconnectedness of causes and effects, but where is a line between cause and effect? It's all one movement, and what is happening right now is IT. That's it. The IS.

Are you ready for the final questions? Or is there any doubt, at all.
Thanks for your comment. I can see cause and effect are one movement and all part of the flow. I also see that an effect is often a cause for the next effect.

Yes, I am ready for the final questions.

Sending love, Brigitte

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Re: Could you pls guide me, Ilona?

Postby Ilona » Wed Sep 11, 2013 3:51 pm

sweet :))
here are the questions, take your time and answer as you see it.

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.

3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

5) Do you decide, intend, choose, control events in Life? Do you make anything happen? Give examples from your experience.

6) Anything to add?


much love!!
Truth realized will set you free.
http://ilonaciunaite.com/book

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aubergine99
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Re: Could you pls guide me, Ilona?

Postby aubergine99 » Thu Sep 12, 2013 5:21 pm

Hello again,
Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?
I cannot see an ‘I’ in direct experience at all. There never was.
Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.


The illusion of the separate self begins when we are babies and beginning to make sense of the world. It often begins through language – I very quickly learnt the name given to me and the names for other people and objects that were all around me. So I quickly assumed that I was a separate entity, with my own thoughts and feelings, free will etc. Throughout my life, this belief was constantly being reinforced.
How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.
Since this investigation into DE, I can see that the illusion exists entirely in thought alone. Nothing changes but the perspective is different. Thought content is still there but there is less attachment than before.

Despite knowing this, there continues to be a feeling of a separate ‘I’ but seeing and understanding that the illusion exists in thought, leads to less attachment and more clarity. It feels like there is much less confusion and much more awareness of the present moment. Before I started the dialogue, I had an intellectual understanding of the illusion but had not seen the evidence in direct experience.
What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?


The simplicity of experiencing through the senses was the final piece of the jigsaw. I had not expected this – I always thought I would make sense of all this through deeper thinking! It is just looking closely with the senses, which we are not used to doing and noticing what is sensed before thoughts being involved.
Do you decide, intend, choose, control events in Life? Do you make anything happen? Give examples from your experience.
No, I do not decide, intend, choose, or control events in life. Actions happen automatically. When I feel thirsty, the body gets up and goes to make a cup of tea or coffee. There are thoughts arising about the making of it possibly, like a thought might arise of having a snack with it or not, but it is all done automatically. There is however very little thought involved, it is just action taking place. There is no entity called ‘I’ that make the legs walk, one foot in front of the other, that chooses to stop at the kitchen worktop, open a cupboard to get a cup, switch on the kettle etc. It is quite possible, that thoughts arise, completely disconnected from the action of making a drink, such as planning a social event or whatever. Still, despite this, a drink is made perfectly.

Neither does an ‘I’ control life. When an appointment is made to see a doctor, it is as a result of a thought arising about seeing a doctor, which may have arisen due to an ongoing ailment. The action of picking up a phone and dialing a number happens automatically by the body when conditions are right, which is due to a thought arising which causes the action. It is done practically on auto-pilot without much awareness being present, although awareness may be present.
Anything to add?
Nothing to add at present

Sending love and gratitude
for your guidance and patience,
Brigitte

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Re: Could you pls guide me, Ilona?

Postby Ilona » Fri Sep 13, 2013 10:52 am

beautiful, thank you brigitte! i'm very happy to welcome you to LU community :))
this is a fresh start, a step over an invisible line of no return. life will keep bringing stuff up to look at and there is so much to explore.

delighted for you..
much love.
Truth realized will set you free.
http://ilonaciunaite.com/book


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