Could you pls guide me, Ilona?

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Ilona
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Re: Could you pls guide me, Ilona?

Postby Ilona » Tue Sep 03, 2013 7:46 pm

Hi, sorry I did not post the link to the exercise.
Here it is.

http://markedeternal.blogspot.co.uk/201 ... s.html?m=1
Truth realized will set you free.
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Re: Could you pls guide me, Ilona?

Postby aubergine99 » Wed Sep 04, 2013 2:17 pm

Hello again,
There is an exercise in this post. Do it and write to me what you noticed. How description of what is happening affect what is happening?


I am sitting down
I hear the t.v
I watch my cat
I see a butterfly
I watch the leaves moving in the breeze
I am thinking of the shopping
I feel thirsty
I hear my mobile ring
I turn mute the t.v.
I am speaking
I feel a bit anxious
I am asking questions
I am listening to answers
I turn off mobile
I am resting
I am feeling frustration and impatience
I am aware of these sensations
I am feeling calmer


Sitting down
Hearing the t.v
Watching my cat
Seeing a butterfly
Watching the leaves moving in the breeze
Thinking of the shopping
Feeling thirsty
Hearing my mobile ring
Turning mute the t.v.
Speaking
Feeling a bit anxious
Asking questions
Listening to answers
Turning off mobile
Resting
Feeling frustration and impatience
Being aware of these sensations
Feeling calmer
Now compare the two ways to label experience- is one truer than the other? If so, which one? What is here without labels? Do labels affect the experience or just describe it?
The second way is truer in the sense that experience is seamless. It does not need referencing to a subject and object in experience because awareness is always present. Labelling the experience de-personalises it and avoids any attachment to it, reminding us that it happens automatically.

Without labels the mind is not fabricating a story through thoughts and embellishing, exaggerating or misleading their meaning. Experience, on the other hand, is just happening. Labels can just be describing but can also affect the experience, once thinking happens after the labelling .
Bring attention back to now and look once again- is there a me behind the word 'me'?
No - there is a feeling of ‘me’ but no evidence of it.
What is not on automatic?
Nothing.
And do we really need to be enslaved by labels?
Not enslaved - (to be enslaved is to not be free), but we will continue to use them because they are useful for communication.

Thanks,
Brigitte

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Re: Could you pls guide me, Ilona?

Postby Ilona » Wed Sep 04, 2013 7:34 pm

Mmm, you misunderstood the exercise, so could not see what it was pointing to.
Try again, but this time doesn't look at it in a grammatical way, but record immediate experience as it is happening, every detail of it, as soon as it is noticed. Ten minutes each, register what is noticed as it is being noticed. First time with I, me, mine, second without subject, just verbing.

Try again and then answer the question.

Sending love
Truth realized will set you free.
http://ilonaciunaite.com/book

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Re: Could you pls guide me, Ilona?

Postby aubergine99 » Wed Sep 04, 2013 9:13 pm

Hi Ilona,

I'm sorry but I don't understand this exercise. Please can you give me more information as I really do not know how to approach this differently. I believe I have done what it is asking.

Brigitte

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Re: Could you pls guide me, Ilona?

Postby Ilona » Wed Sep 04, 2013 9:41 pm

Describe what is happening as it is happening. What do you notice righ now?
Truth realized will set you free.
http://ilonaciunaite.com/book

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Re: Could you pls guide me, Ilona?

Postby aubergine99 » Thu Sep 05, 2013 10:20 am

Hi Ilona,
There is an exercise in this post. Do it and write to me what you noticed. How description of what is happening affect what is happening?
I am typing
I am hearing t.v.
I see car passing by window
I notice person getting out of car
I hear car starting up
I see a seagull flying
I am thinking of eating something
I see the branches of tree moving in the breeze
I see my cat coming into room
I hear car engine starting outside

Hearing
Seeing
Typing
Thinking
Driving
Hearing
Noticing
Pausing
Breathing
Scratching
Walking
Moving
Stomach rumbling
Singing
Looking

Now compare the two ways to label experience- is one truer than the other? If so, which one? What is here without labels? Do labels affect the experience or just describe it?
The second is truer because it describes only action happening with no reference to detail i.e. labelling by thoughts. Feelings and thoughts are noticed but not the content. Without labels, only what is happening now is noted. Labels can affect the experience only if the thoughts about them are believed.
What is not on automatic?
Nothing
And do we really need to be enslaved by labels?
No but they are useful in communication.

I hope this is ok.

Brigitte

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Re: Could you pls guide me, Ilona?

Postby Ilona » Thu Sep 05, 2013 3:13 pm

Hearing
Seeing
Typing
Thinking
Driving
Hearing
Noticing
Pausing
Breathing
Scratching
Walking
Moving
Stomach rumbling
Singing
Looking

mmm did all this happen in 10 min? are you driving and typing? hehe, looks dangerous.
again, this is not your immediate experience. get closer, right up close to what is happening right now. write what you are noticing right now. the point is to describe in detail what is happening right this moment.

In which way labelling experience affects what is happening?
Truth realized will set you free.
http://ilonaciunaite.com/book

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Re: Could you pls guide me, Ilona?

Postby aubergine99 » Fri Sep 06, 2013 10:47 am

Hi Ilona,

Hearing
Seeing
Typing
Thinking
Watching car driving past
Hearing
Noticing
Pausing
Breathing
Scratching
Seeing a man walking
Moving
Feeling stomach rumbling
Hearing bird sing
Looking

mmm did all this happen in 10 min? are you driving and typing? hehe, looks dangerous.
again, this is not your immediate experience. get closer, right up close to what is happening right now. write what you are noticing right now. the point is to describe in detail what is happening right this moment.
Please can we pass on this exercise now or come back to it. I am going crazy with it!

I have made some changes but yes, actually it did happen in 10 mins but it wasn’t me driving and typing (he he I haven’t managed to perfect multi-tasking to that level yet). I gave an accurate account of what I saw happening. Getting extremely frustrated with this exercise though and confused. You ask me to describe in detail yet the example in exercise, says to use only verbs. How can this be in detail?
In which way labelling experience affects what is happening?


The happening happens with or without labels, so labels are unnecessary. The only difference, apart from what I have already said, is that labelling seems to make the experience more detached from the present, less immediate, if you see what I mean. Words point to the experience but are not the experience. Descriptions are fine but they are only labels.

Brigitte

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Re: Could you pls guide me, Ilona?

Postby Ilona » Fri Sep 06, 2013 11:25 am

cool :) we can end with this exercise.
The happening happens with or without labels, so labels are unnecessary. The only difference, apart from what I have already said, is that labelling seems to make the experience more detached from the present, less immediate, if you see what I mean. Words point to the experience but are not the experience. Descriptions are fine but they are only labels.
YES. words only point to experience and are also part of experience. descriptions are labels. good to notice that.

if we say - i am breathing, or breathing is happening, description of action is just that, a description.
now take a look, if there is i that gets frustrated, i that gets happy, confused, conditioned, etc, or it is just a way that language describes what is happening.

is there an i other then a thought?

sending love.
Truth realized will set you free.
http://ilonaciunaite.com/book

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Re: Could you pls guide me, Ilona?

Postby aubergine99 » Fri Sep 06, 2013 12:34 pm

Hello again,
Cool :) we can end with this exercise.


Phew – ‘Cool’ What nice word, thanks Ilona, I have been waiting for that.
If we say - i am breathing, or breathing is happening, description of action is just that, a description. Now take a look, if there is i that gets frustrated, i that gets happy, confused, conditioned, etc, or it is just a way that language describes what is happening.


It all happens so fast. When a feeling arises of frustration, confusion or happiness, it is felt in the body within nanoseconds to various degrees. It is seen, on inspection, initially as a thought and in a flash, appears as a sensation in the body. ‘I’ immediately claims it as personal. Looking at it closely, I can see that it is thought arising and believed. When it is seen clearly as that, it goes away along with the body sensation of it.
Is there an i other than a thought?
No, there is no ‘I’ at all.

Sending love
Brigitte

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Ilona
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Re: Could you pls guide me, Ilona?

Postby Ilona » Fri Sep 06, 2013 1:54 pm

‘I’ immediately claims it as personal.
hmm, is it a thought claiming another thoughts or it's more thoughts about claiming and personal? if you look at thoughts as clouds, there are various clouds in the sky, some dark and rainy, stormy or just fluffy tiny ones. can you see that clouds are not attached to the sky and sky does not care, which cloud is visiting. take a look, is any one cloud in charge of another, is any one cloud making other clouds to stick to the sky, is any cloud permanent?

what else do you notice when looking at thoughts? what is that believes them?
what is that is listening to thoughts?

sending love.
Truth realized will set you free.
http://ilonaciunaite.com/book

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aubergine99
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Re: Could you pls guide me, Ilona?

Postby aubergine99 » Fri Sep 06, 2013 7:36 pm

Hi,
‘I’ immediately claims it as personal
.

hmm, is it a thought claiming another thoughts or it's more thoughts about claiming and personal? if you look at thoughts as clouds, there are various clouds in the sky, some dark and rainy, stormy or just fluffy tiny ones. can you see that clouds are not attached to the sky and sky does not care, which cloud is visiting. take a look, is any one cloud in charge of another, is any one cloud making other clouds to stick to the sky, is any cloud permanent?
Sorry, my fault for not being specific enough. When I use ‘I’, I am referring to illusion of I. I know that it is an illusion but it was to make things simpler in language terms. Guess, that was not a good idea.

I think it is more thoughts about claiming and personal. I see that thoughts come and go like clouds across the sky but do not affect it in any way. All clouds are separate and impermanent. Same for thoughts, although a thought could be about another thought but not attached to it.
what else do you notice when looking at thoughts? what is that believes them?
what is that is listening to thoughts?
There is no-one believing thoughts as there is no I. There are just thoughts and sometimes there are thoughts about beliefs in other thoughts.

Sending love, Brigitte

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Ilona
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Re: Could you pls guide me, Ilona?

Postby Ilona » Fri Sep 06, 2013 9:07 pm

Sweet!

So can you say YES, it's clear that there is no such separate entity to which experience is happening?
If not, what is not entirely clear?

How about your daily life, do you notice anything different? What is the same?
Truth realized will set you free.
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Re: Could you pls guide me, Ilona?

Postby aubergine99 » Sat Sep 07, 2013 12:01 pm

Hello Ilona,
So can you say YES, it's clear that there is no such separate entity to which experience is happening?


Yes, it’s clear there is no separate entity to which experience is happening. There are only thoughts about separate entities and their labels but none in experience.

If not, what is not entirely clear?

How about your daily life, do you notice anything different? What is the same?
Everything happens as it has always done but experience feels less personal. There is a loosening of attachment to thoughts happening but it is a slow process as the habit is quite strong. Still, there is a feeling of freedom definitely and acceptance and greater awareness of the present moment.

Sending love Brigitte

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Re: Could you pls guide me, Ilona?

Postby Ilona » Sun Sep 08, 2013 7:38 am

Everything happens as it has always done but experience feels less personal. There is a loosening of attachment to thoughts happening but it is a slow process as the habit is quite strong. Still, there is a feeling of freedom definitely and acceptance and greater awareness of the present moment.
Sweet!
When you look at others, your closest people, strangers on the street, what do you see? Are there separated entities walking around? Describe the best you can.

Sending love.
Truth realized will set you free.
http://ilonaciunaite.com/book


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