Greetings ~ please can I receive guidance?!

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Xain
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Re: Greetings ~ please can I receive guidance?!

Postby Xain » Wed Aug 21, 2013 4:03 pm

Yes I am the presence and presence on examination doesn't have a location
OK, so 'I' is presence.
So when you say 'I am going to the shops', it is presence that will do it. Yes?
How is it known that 'I' is presence, and what knows this?
It is in fact everywhere so has to be inside and outside the body and permeating everything.
You seemed to have fallen into the realms of thinking and analysis in your last reply, so some of this might be hard going.
What experience do you have of 'presence' inside a body?
How is 'presence permeating everything' experienced?
We have a body in order to experience human emotions/feelings/sensations, I believe.
Ok, so 'I' is the owner of a body. And the body experiences feelings and sensations, yes?
This has been seen very clearly. Nothing can stop the "I' thought from coming back except probably, ....grace?
Sorry, I don't understand what you mean by 'grace'.
If there is something that controls thoughts, and can prevent them from coming back what is it, and how is it known?
That the "I' thought is just another thought?
Well let's look into this. There might be considered an 'I' that exists in thought, and there might be a real 'I'.
Which, in your experience right now is the 'real' 'I' - Describe it, and how it is known.
The "I" thought is just years of conditioning of a false identity
That may or may not be so, but what has this to do with your current experience here and now?
What is there here and now other than the current thought?
At the moment I'm not experiencing any trickiness but am aware that it's not just going to disappear completely even if the illusion of self has been seen through.
Right at the start of the discussion I mentioned about not having expectations or preconceptions. What's this?

Xain ♥

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Re: Greetings ~ please can I receive guidance?!

Postby Cloudy » Thu Aug 22, 2013 1:21 pm

hi Xain

I need to ponder these questions a little...please bear with me! Thanks so much

Robyn

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Re: Greetings ~ please can I receive guidance?!

Postby Xain » Thu Aug 22, 2013 6:37 pm

Hi Robyn

That's fine. I may have been a little hard on you in that last reply. Sorry if it came across that way.

It may be a better position to state what do you feel 'I' is, and generally the reply received here is that they are a person, a body with a mind. That is what they FEEL they are. What do you FEEL that you?
If you genuinely feel that 'You are awareness' then we can proceed from that perspective.

'We have a body' implies that there is an 'I' than owns a body.
Is the body 'I'? Can you find something that owns the body in your experience?

Have a look into feelings and sensations a bit more too.
There is seeing, hearing etc.
Does the body 'do' them?
Conventionally, we would say 'I see', 'I hear' etc
Is there an 'I' that performs the functions?
Or is there just 'seeing' and 'hearing' alone, without something 'doing them'?

Xain ♥

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Re: Greetings ~ please can I receive guidance?!

Postby Cloudy » Thu Aug 22, 2013 10:03 pm

Hi Xain

I realise I'm not really getting very far with this....or at least, I feel some frustration arising. A bit confused but I will try and answer your questions as honestly as I can. Don't worry about being hard on me, I am not taking it personally.

ok....
OK, so 'I' is presence.
So when you say 'I am going to the shops', it is presence that will do it. Yes?
How is it known that 'I' is presence, and what knows this?
If I say "I am going to the shops", it is an internal statement which is labeling a thought that has arisen. Is it presence that will do it...I don't know! This body just seems to go along with that thought. The thought is labeling an instinct which comes out of nowhere, there is no controller of the thought.
What experience do you have of 'presence' inside a body?
How is 'presence permeating everything' experienced?
I have had a glimpse of being simply "presence"...it was a few months ago. It was experienced and known on a deep level. It lasted for about a week......the shift was very subtle, I can go into detail but I don't think it's necessary. Obviously this was just a glimpse, hence being here I guess!
How is it known that 'I' is presence, and what knows this?
All I can say is I don't know who knows it! I just don't know....that's what I'm trying to fathom. Am I the witness of the real "I". How can there be two "I's"?
Ok, so 'I' is the owner of a body. And the body experiences feelings and sensations, yes?
There is an experience of an "I" knowing the body and the mind. I'm not sure about owning it but I'm definitely aware of it.....I am quite confused right now, everything seems very cloudy.

I don't know what controls thoughts and it is not known what that is.
The real "I" ~ I can't describe it...the closest I can get is "I am", or "it is."
Have a look into feelings and sensations a bit more too.
There is seeing, hearing etc.
Does the body 'do' them?
Conventionally, we would say 'I see', 'I hear' etc
Is there an 'I' that performs the functions?
Or is there just 'seeing' and 'hearing' alone, without something 'doing them'?
There is just seeing, hearing, experiencing, without someone doing them. That seems very clear. No ownership of those things, they just happen.

oh dear...feeling very inadequate which is causing suffering, no clarity....heeeelp!

Robyn

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Re: Greetings ~ please can I receive guidance?!

Postby Xain » Fri Aug 23, 2013 2:48 pm

Hi Robyn

Don't Panic (that's in large, friendly letters).
Let's take our time, maybe step back a little way.

As I say, there may be a little confusion coming up when you say 'I am presence'.
'Presence' is a tricky one, because it is not a 'thing', it is not something tangible.
It may be a confusion with words. Let's try to stick with definite things that can be located for the moment.
Either there is a 'thing' which is normally referred to as 'I' that can be found or there isn't.
If I say "I am going to the shops", it is an internal statement which is labeling a thought that has arisen. Is it presence that will do it...I don't know! This body just seems to go along with that thought. The thought is labeling an instinct which comes out of nowhere, there is no controller of the thought.
Good. So you can see what are 'thoughts' and what are not. Also, you can see that there is no controller of thoughts.
I have had a glimpse of being simply "presence"...it was a few months ago. It was experienced and known on a deep level. It lasted for about a week......the shift was very subtle, I can go into detail but I don't think it's necessary. Obviously this was just a glimpse, hence being here I guess!
That's fine. It would be wrong, however, to 'want that experience back again' as this would be another expectation.
We are not looking to 'gain an experience' here, we are simply looking for 'I' and that is all right now.
There is just seeing, hearing, experiencing, without someone doing them. That seems very clear. No ownership of those things, they just happen.
Great! So there is no 'I' that sees, no 'I' that hears etc
'I see' and 'I hear' are just conventional phrases that are nothing more than thoughts.
Ok, so 'I' is the owner of a body. And the body experiences feelings and sensations, yes?

There is an experience of an "I" knowing the body and the mind. I'm not sure about owning it but I'm definitely aware of it.....I am quite confused right now, everything seems very cloudy.
Ok, well keep things very simple and we can look into this.
Is there an 'I' that is aware of the body? Can you find what that is?
Or could it be that there are simply sensations alone without a 'thing' that is aware of them?
How is it known that 'I' is presence, and what knows this?
All I can say is I don't know who knows it! I just don't know....that's what I'm trying to fathom. Am I the witness of the real "I". How can there be two "I's"?
Let's take a big step back, and approach things simply.
LOOK into experience here and now. Use all the senses available.
What is 'I'? What does the word point to? Does the word point to a 'thing'?
Is the 'I' is a thing, does it have control? Does it 'do stuff'?
If I is NOT a thing (like 'presence' for example), how is it known that 'I' is that thing? Or is this a guess/idea?
Or could it be that there is no separate 'I' here at all in any way, shape or form?

Xain ♥

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Re: Greetings ~ please can I receive guidance?!

Postby Cloudy » Fri Aug 23, 2013 5:34 pm

Xain

Lovely reply...thanks sooo much. Feeling a little wobbily today. Going to really tune into direct experience. Am going away for a week so will hopefully be able to tune in until sunday and then from sunday~friday could be more tricky but I'm really on it and am staying with this, so I will be back by Friday next and maybe even get a connection where I am but not guaranteed.Big appreciation going out to you. Simplicity is sooo much better, going to really sort out the wheat from the chaff.
Robyn x

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Re: Greetings ~ please can I receive guidance?!

Postby Cloudy » Sun Aug 25, 2013 9:01 pm

Hi Xain

Just checking in with you.
Ok, well keep things very simple and we can look into this.
Is there an 'I' that is aware of the body? Can you find what that is?
Or could it be that there are simply sensations alone without a 'thing' that is aware of them?
In my direct experience, there are simply sensations in the body which are then labelled by a thought. However, there is also something which points to a personal "me" owning this body and these sensations....even though that separate I cannot be found. It is like an attachment to something personal within my experience, even though the thought "I want to be free of this as I know it is an illusion" pops up. It is in the background of my experience. Something doesn't want to let go of this illusion as it doesn't think it will make any difference to every day life anyway. How can that feel so strong?
Let's take a big step back, and approach things simply.
LOOK into experience here and now. Use all the senses available.
What is 'I'? What does the word point to? Does the word point to a 'thing'?
Is the 'I' is a thing, does it have control? Does it 'do stuff'?
If I is NOT a thing (like 'presence' for example), how is it known that 'I' is that thing? Or is this a guess/idea?
Or could it be that there is no separate 'I' here at all in any way, shape or form?
There doesn't seem to be any separate "I" here in any way shape or form, we could do away with the separate "I" completely and life would continue on as it always does. There must be an attachment to the illusion, I am feeling that. Also feeling like it won't make any difference and that there is no quick fix way to end all suffering. That is clear that suffering comes from conditioning.

Please can you give me some more pointers? Thanks Xain

Robyn

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Re: Greetings ~ please can I receive guidance?!

Postby Xain » Mon Aug 26, 2013 10:48 pm

In my direct experience, there are simply sensations in the body which are then labelled by a thought.
Good. Nice work, Robyn. You're really looking into this now.
However, there is also something which points to a personal "me" owning this body and these sensations....even though that separate I cannot be found.
So to try and put this in different terms, there is 'something' here, but a separate 'I' cannot be found.
Now look carefully - Is there a 'thing' that owns the body? Is the body 'I'.
If you were to say 'This is my body', can you find an 'owner of a body', or is there just 'a body'?

Examine all the senses there right now - Is there a 'thing' that owns or perhaps 'operates' the senses, or are there just the senses? Is there an 'I' doing it, or is that just a thought?
Something doesn't want to let go of this illusion as it doesn't think it will make any difference to every day life anyway.
That's a rather negative expectation isn't it? What do you know of the future?
Certainly, the mind doesn't like the idea of 'no separate 'I' ' - The mind relies on it. The mind creates it.
Is there anything here that has a grasp of an illusion that it won't let go? Or is that just a thought and nothing more?

What is 'everyday life'? Is there an 'I' here, a separate 'thing' that has 'a life'?
Or is there just life?
Also feeling like it won't make any difference and that there is no quick fix way to end all suffering. That is clear that suffering comes from conditioning.
What is 'conditioning' other than a thought about an apparent past?
Has there ever been an 'I' there to be conditioned? What owns 'conditioning'?
What is here that is conditioned? LOOK. Is there an 'I' that is conditioned here, or is that just a thought?

Xain ♥

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Re: Greetings ~ please can I receive guidance?!

Postby Cloudy » Sun Sep 01, 2013 9:38 pm

Hello Xain

I'm back from my break and ready to get going again! Thanks for the pointers.
So to try and put this in different terms, there is 'something' here, but a separate 'I' cannot be found.
Now look carefully - Is there a 'thing' that owns the body? Is the body 'I'.
If you were to say 'This is my body', can you find an 'owner of a body', or is there just 'a body'?
When looking for a "Thing" that owns the body, nothing can be found, so I believe there is just a body....yes.
Examine all the senses there right now - Is there a 'thing' that owns or perhaps 'operates' the senses, or are there just the senses? Is there an 'I' doing it, or is that just a thought?
Yes, it's just that senses are happening and there isn't an "I" doing it, they operate of their own accord. Hearing happens, seeing happens, tasting happens, touching happens and smelling happens....there's no "I" controlling any of these, that is from my direct experience.
Something doesn't want to let go of this illusion as it doesn't think it will make any difference to every day life anyway.


That's a rather negative expectation isn't it? What do you know of the future?
Certainly, the mind doesn't like the idea of 'no separate 'I' ' - The mind relies on it. The mind creates it.
Is there anything here that has a grasp of an illusion that it won't let go? Or is that just a thought and nothing more?
yes, with distance I can see that I was in a negative state of mind when I wrote that sentence, and really it just came as a thought and I attached meaning to it. You're right, there is nothing here that has a grasp of an illusion ~ it is just a negative thought.
What is 'everyday life'? Is there an 'I' here, a separate 'thing' that has 'a life'?
Or is there just life?
There is just life! Flowing......
Also feeling like it won't make any difference and that there is no quick fix way to end all suffering. That is clear that suffering comes from conditioning.


What is 'conditioning' other than a thought about an apparent past?
Has there ever been an 'I' there to be conditioned? What owns 'conditioning'?
What is here that is conditioned? LOOK. Is there an 'I' that is conditioned here, or is that just a thought?
yes, on looking...there is no "I' that has been conditioned, it is just a thought that popped up to label an uncomfortable feeling. Really there is only an apparent past, in this moment, past does not exist, except as a thought/memory.....

Look forward to hearing from you!

Robyn

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Re: Greetings ~ please can I receive guidance?!

Postby Xain » Wed Sep 04, 2013 11:32 am

If you were to say 'This is my body', can you find an 'owner of a body', or is there just 'a body'?

When looking for a "Thing" that owns the body, nothing can be found, so I believe there is just a body....yes.
I want for you to have real commitment here. Don't just 'believe' something - KNOW!
Either something is absolutely true, or it is not.

There is a body here - Do you own it? Do you operate it? Is it you?
Does the statement 'This is my body' have any real meaning?
Yes, it's just that senses are happening and there isn't an "I" doing it, they operate of their own accord. Hearing happens, seeing happens, tasting happens, touching happens and smelling happens....there's no "I" controlling any of these, that is from my direct experience.
Excellent.

Is there an 'I' reading this sentence? Or is there just 'reading'?

Is there an 'I' performing this investigation? Or this investigation just 'happening'?
yes, with distance I can see that I was in a negative state of mind when I wrote that sentence, and really it just came as a thought and I attached meaning to it. You're right, there is nothing here that has a grasp of an illusion ~ it is just a negative thought.
No problem.
Thoughts come and go. Can they be controlled? Is there a controller, a 'thinker' that can choose thoughts?
yes, on looking...there is no "I' that has been conditioned, it is just a thought that popped up to label an uncomfortable feeling. Really there is only an apparent past, in this moment, past does not exist
So was there an 'I' in the past that could be conditioned?
Will there be an 'I' in the future?
Or are these just thoughts? Thoughts that pops up and some-how believed in?
Is there any truth to these thoughts?

Is there a seperate 'I' here right now in any way shape or form?
Or is it just a thought that pops up? A thought that has no 'I' to control or create it?

Xain ♥

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Re: Greetings ~ please can I receive guidance?!

Postby Cloudy » Wed Sep 04, 2013 8:57 pm

Hi Xain, great to hear from you. Thanks so much for staying with me....

I am totally committed indeed. I am looking at my daily experiences and I KNOW there is no controller, I KNOW there is not an owner of this body. This body functions perfectly well without direction from an apparent "I". Infact I've been really tuning in to how perfect the timing of everything is...it's incredible, it functions so perfectly. This has been my experience when I've looked, nothing is overlooked, it appears that life has full control of itself and this body is in that amazing creative mix called life. Sorry, I'm waffling.....

the statement "This is my body" doesn't have any real meaning, no..it's just something that I've not questioned so much before being drawn to non-duality...."This is my hand,, typing" also doesn't have any real meaning, because it's just a hand, and typing is just happening. There is not someone (an "I") who decided to type. Just as there wasn't someone who decided to have a bath and decided to get out of the bath, one second before the washing machine finished. It is all just happening, in perfect harmony.
Is there an 'I' reading this sentence? Or is there just 'reading'?

Is there an 'I' performing this investigation? Or this investigation just 'happening'?
No. no "I" reading this sentence...just reading.

No "I" performing this investigation, it's just happening.
Thoughts come and go. Can they be controlled? Is there a controller, a 'thinker' that can choose thoughts?
NO...thoughts can most certainly not be controlled, and there is no thinker that can chose thoughts, they are just little blighters that come and go.
So was there an 'I' in the past that could be conditioned?
Will there be an 'I' in the future?
Or are these just thoughts? Thoughts that pops up and some-how believed in?
Is there any truth to these thoughts?
There was no "I" in the past that could be conditioned, there was only ever experience.
These are indeed just thoughts and there is no truth to any of the thoughts.
Is there a seperate 'I' here right now in any way shape or form?
Or is it just a thought that pops up? A thought that has no 'I' to control or create it?
No, there is not a separate "I" here right now, I can't find one anywhere ~ it's just a thought that pops up and labels a thought of an "I" but it is seen through.

Many thanks Xain.....

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Re: Greetings ~ please can I receive guidance?!

Postby Xain » Thu Sep 05, 2013 9:42 am

Great replies, Cloudy.
There was no "I" in the past that could be conditioned, there was only ever experience.
Great answer. Perhaps you may want to look into this one deeply.
Is there a past? Was there ever 'experience'? Or is there only a thought appearing that says there was?

Of course, we can still talk and 'I' and 'me' as a language convention.

How do you feel?
Do you have any questions at this point?

There are a further six questions I have for you if you are OK to proceed from this point.

Xain ♥

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Re: Greetings ~ please can I receive guidance?!

Postby Cloudy » Thu Sep 05, 2013 5:37 pm

Thanks Xain,
There was no "I" in the past that could be conditioned, there was only ever experience.


Great answer. Perhaps you may want to look into this one deeply.
Is there a past? Was there ever 'experience'? Or is there only a thought appearing that says there was?

Of course, we can still talk and 'I' and 'me' as a language convention.
My direct experience tells me that there is no such thing as a past, or a future. There is only what's happening now.
Was there ever "experience"....no this too is just a thought. There is experience now, and that's it! Yes, a thought can appear to say there was a past, or a memory can crop up, but actually in this case...not too many memories of an apparent past, attention is on the present.

I feel just fine. I feel relaxed, there has definitely been a subtle shift. I no longer feel hungry for answers, it's like a big door has opened and I feel free, I feel an expansion and I feel excitement. I feel so much gratitude for finding this site and for your guidance. I feel like there are no limits and no boundaries, only more insights to gain in this vast sea of awareness.

Absolutely no questions, just a readiness to proceed....

Thank you x

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Re: Greetings ~ please can I receive guidance?!

Postby Cloudy » Thu Sep 05, 2013 5:56 pm

I just wanted to add, I feel very in my heart, a lot of love....love for everyone and everything.
Deep compassion for the human condition, deep compassion for the planet.....

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Re: Greetings ~ please can I receive guidance?!

Postby Xain » Fri Sep 06, 2013 12:28 pm

That's lovely Robyn.
OK - Here are the first three of the six questions.
This may be considered to be going over 'old ground' but it may assist in ironing out any sticking points.
Feel free to elaborate if you wish.

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

2) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference (if any) from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

3) In our dialogue together, was there a last bit, perhaps a question or a statement that pushed you over, made you look and realise?

Xain ♥


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