I would like some help please

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Robin.
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Re: I would like some help please

Postby Robin. » Sun Dec 18, 2011 11:33 am

No you ? just body/mind ?
There is no me involved in anything, its the conditioned body mind that makes all conscious decisions, and labelling.

Thoughts do arise and I never know what they will be, unless I am consciously doing the thinking, or deliberating over a problem. Its often at this time when I am muddling things over in my head that my imagination makes unnecessary assumptions, or mountains out of molehills, so to speak.
So, is it possible that thoughts just arise, things just happen, without a YOU to make the world go around ?
generally speaking life goes along, and thoughts arise and life still happens without any input from a personal me

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vinceschubert
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Re: I would like some help please

Postby vinceschubert » Sun Dec 18, 2011 11:39 am

There is no me involved in anything,
Would you describe this as an experience or an intellectual understanding ? & how would you tell the difference ?

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Robin.
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Re: I would like some help please

Postby Robin. » Sun Dec 18, 2011 11:50 am

Would you describe this as an experience or an intellectual understanding ? & how would you tell the difference ?
Yes I would definitely say this is my intellectual understanding, and it is impossible for me to find an argument against this understanding. This is where I get stuck with my progress in full liberation, and the experiences of the many liberated people that testify to a definite something or other happening to them that is unchangeable once seen.

The only way I can tell a difference between what is my bodymind, and what is occurring without any input from me is by consciously telling myself to take notice. Other than that, day turns into night, my beard continues to grow while I take no notice at all. I can't stop it growing, or the seasons coming and going. Its all automatic.

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vinceschubert
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Re: I would like some help please

Postby vinceschubert » Sun Dec 18, 2011 12:08 pm

...my progress in full liberation
and
'others' experiences
These are expectations derived from second hand knowledge.
The repetitious thoughts that incessantly repeat, become accepted by the thoughts that maintain an 'identity'.
Robin, examine the process how thoughts make your experience about life, rather than a direct experience of living.
Can you see this happening ? (don't judge it)
Can you see the way it happens ?

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Robin.
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Re: I would like some help please

Postby Robin. » Sun Dec 18, 2011 12:23 pm

These are expectations derived from second hand knowledge.
The repetitious thoughts that incessantly repeat, become accepted by the thoughts that maintain an 'identity'.
Robin, examine the process how thoughts make your experience about life, rather than a direct experience of living.
Can you see this happening ? (don't judge it)
Can you see the way it happens ?
Goodness yes I can see the way this happens. I can also see how involuntary preprogrammed reactions could possibly interfere with neutral experiences in the now. In fact, just writing this is making my heart race and my stomach churn.
I can see I need to work on this aspect of my nature to allow subconscious thoughts interfere with the present moment.
The very realisation that I am guilty of this presupposition, and quoting to myself a myriad of second hand pieces of information makes me shiver.

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vinceschubert
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Re: I would like some help please

Postby vinceschubert » Sun Dec 18, 2011 12:45 pm

The seeing of this is great.
The judgement about it is not.
The judgement and subsequent anxiety (fear) are mind tricks to maintain the familiar - and this is OK
If there is No you, how can you change it ?
There is nothing wrong with second hand knowledge, it is just the automatic acceptance of it that diverts you from Living Life.
Shouting this; ROBINS' EXPERIENCE WILL NOT BE, CANNOT BE, LIKE ANYBODY ELSES !!
Indeed, other peoples descriptions about their experiences will mislead.
(your descriptions here are SO similar to my own that it is eerie - but not for a moment would i imagine them to be the same)

Your body is a way into your own experiencing.
Do sensations precede thought or the other way around ?

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Robin.
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Re: I would like some help please

Postby Robin. » Sun Dec 18, 2011 1:03 pm

Do sensations precede thought or the other way around ?
OMG Vince. I think I may be almost there. Sensations do precede thought then I give a label to the sensation. I have had a fear of dying since I was an 8 year old boy. Its more controllable now. But a headache would always be a brain tumour, or anything I could find information on. Cerebral malaria, for instance. A pain in the chest would always be a heart attack.

I actually did die briedly when I was an 8 year old boy after a bad accident. I can still see myself up on the ceiling, watching my mother screaming over me. I have always been, lets say, a very unusual character, and very sensitive, but also very popular for some reason. When you said. examine the process how thoughts make your experience about life, rather than a direct experience of living.
Can you see this happening ? (don't judge it)
Can you see the way it happens ?

I immediately went hot and cold. I have kicked this idea about, and NO there is no I to be found in my body, or my brain. But there is still a watcher of everything happening. What I had overlooked was that ME My Bodymind always jumps in to any situation and shouts the loudest. I believe authority, and when loads of people claim the same thing I tend to believe that also. But what I am going to say now is. I know that I am not my body, I know that I am not my mind, or memory, or anything Psychological. But I also know that I am still hanging around just like the rest of everything I see is. Also. I can't see any point where I am desperate from anything else. I am pissing myself laughing at this notion. Because. This is the bodymind writing this, because I don't exist. I just am I would say that this is my body-mind doing as its told for a change.

I also feel scared I have to say. But I think, I hope! This is my programming crapping itself because its just got nowhere to run. I can protect my body to a certain extent, and make sure I eat well and keep out of danger. But the illusive "I" is untouchable and can't be protected because it doesn't have a nature or substance, and yet its also lieka substrate that everything is existing on, or maybe not. Am I talking bollocks Vince? I feel weird.

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Robin.
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Re: I would like some help please

Postby Robin. » Sun Dec 18, 2011 1:05 pm

I should have said I can't see any point where I am separate from anything else. Not Desperate. That was my spellcheck
doing what I always do. Jumping to conclusions .

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vinceschubert
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Re: I would like some help please

Postby vinceschubert » Sun Dec 18, 2011 1:12 pm

Am I talking bollocks Vince?
Absolutely not. This is the most lucid rant you have made.
YOU ARE DESCRIBING EXPERIENCE ! yippee!!
This is my programming crapping itself because its just got nowhere to run.
A perfect explanation - couldn't have put it better...

Is there a you, at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form?

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Robin.
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Re: I would like some help please

Postby Robin. » Sun Dec 18, 2011 1:20 pm

Is there a you, at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form?
LOL ha ha ha Hell no Vince. There is a body here typing that is a complete dickhead which is so badly programmed its sad. Nope no one is writing to no one. Why would there be? All there is is happening. Things are happening but "I " is always watching and having no input into the field of view. It all just is. Its as plain as the nose that isn't on my face LOL :o) Whats more. "I " can't possibly die as its not here. What a freaking joke the last 59 years have been. I love you Vince. Well "I " would of course.

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vinceschubert
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Re: I would like some help please

Postby vinceschubert » Sun Dec 18, 2011 1:29 pm

i'm grinning from ear to ear. Love is how i would describe this feeling too. A great, expansive, welcoming feeling...
Don't knock the the badly programmed 'dickhead' as that is exactly what brought 'you' to this point.
Trust the process...

Robin, Explain in detail what the self is and how it works.

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Robin.
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Re: I would like some help please

Postby Robin. » Sun Dec 18, 2011 1:43 pm

Robin, Explain in detail what the self is and how it works.
The self in my experience is a human body made up of chemicals and matter. It has an empty control tower called the brain which has certain automatic programmes loaded onto it at birth. It needs nothing except fuel and it has a built in alarm to alert its parents when it needs attention.
The brain is programmed by audible sounds from its parents, and others. It also has a certain amount of free will, but is impressed by whatever the brain perceives to be truths.

The "I " Conversely, doesn't reside within the body, and cannot be found in the body, and yet it can. This is a subtle paradox as the "I" can be found nowhere, yet everywhere all at the same time. At this point in time I am strongly inclined to think that the "I" or I am. Is the substrate in which all things are happening upon. It could even be called God. I also at this point in time, am inclined to believe that this "I am" substrate is what we who love, and feel love would call. "Pure love". Why? Because it asks nothing, yet gives everything we could ever want. Everything is perfect just as it is thanks to this "I am"

I am is now crying Vince. But what the hell. Its Christmas nearly this is the best pressie I've ever had.

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vinceschubert
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Re: I would like some help please

Postby vinceschubert » Sun Dec 18, 2011 1:58 pm

It's like a present of a gift certificate - it's a joy to get but there's further joy as it is used for what is needed/wanted.

But not done yet Robin...
How would you describe (in simple terms - minimal intellectualisation) to somebody who has never heard about no you.

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Robin.
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Re: I would like some help please

Postby Robin. » Sun Dec 18, 2011 2:08 pm

How would you describe (in simple terms - minimal intellectualisation) to somebody who has never heard about no you.
I would find it hard or impossible to describe the no me, as in Robin. But if I were trying to explain the concept of no "I" existing within any person. I would ask them to tell me where their own "I" can be found. Its a simple request, and it is totally impossible to be found. When this is realised, its not hard to reason with the fact that we are not our body, or our brain, or our psyche,ego, or any other psychological term given for different invisible brain functions. Therefore what is the watcher behind all of this which we can all identify with? Answer, The I am, which is everything and nothing all at the same time. It just is and its perfect.

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vinceschubert
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Re: I would like some help please

Postby vinceschubert » Sun Dec 18, 2011 2:16 pm

Ok, this is the trickiest question - watch your expectations here...
How does it feel to be liberated?


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