This way to the gate - anybody?

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lorn
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Re: This way to the gate - anybody?

Postby lorn » Tue Jan 10, 2012 9:22 pm

Tell me this Lorn, Is there a you, at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form?
i burst out laughing as i read this. no. i mean, everything is still there, but no.

when you said, "Try this, Stop DOING the looking and BE the looking." there was a big stupid grin and a feeling of relief. that is still there. i am reluctant to admit this, since we're only on the second page. it's difficult to say this clearly. how can thoughts be the arbiter of truth anymore then the sensations in my hand can know what time it is? it's just nonsense.

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vinceschubert
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Re: This way to the gate - anybody?

Postby vinceschubert » Wed Jan 11, 2012 1:46 am

Beautiful.
Watching internal processes, answer this question.
How does it feel to be liberated?

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lorn
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Re: This way to the gate - anybody?

Postby lorn » Wed Jan 11, 2012 7:31 pm

it does not feel a certain way. no feeling is present that was not present before.

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vinceschubert
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Re: This way to the gate - anybody?

Postby vinceschubert » Wed Jan 11, 2012 11:30 pm

Hah! good one. imprecise question.
Tell me the thought process that occurs when you consider being liberated.

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lorn
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Re: This way to the gate - anybody?

Postby lorn » Thu Jan 12, 2012 4:36 am

Tell me the thought process that occurs when you consider being liberated.
first, it is what it is. thoughts of self remain pervasive. yes, they are empty. there are moments of thinking/feeling self trying to own it which is a little funny given the mental contortions that would seem to involve, but it comes quite naturally. second, there are reservations about calling this liberation. there is still suffering. feeling good is still clearly preferable. this liberation, if that's what it is, is not deep.

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vinceschubert
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Re: This way to the gate - anybody?

Postby vinceschubert » Thu Jan 12, 2012 5:39 am

there are reservations about calling this liberation. there is still suffering. feeling good is still clearly preferable. this liberation, if that's what it is, is not deep.
Sure, then call it boiled cabbage, it is what it is and that is definitely not an end point.
Inherent in your question is that it is a thing and clearly the removal of some beliefs cannot be a thing.
Suffering will morph when the identification with a story is detached. The suffering is almost certainly the result of habit or conditioning. This is what is undone when it is simply seen to occur.
Preferences are just thoughts trying to build a story. What is IS, and any overlay just adds to IS so it becomes a new What IS that includes the story of preferences which adds emotion of clinging or fear of loss or grasping etc.
What is deep ? Something you know about from experience or second hand knowledge or a concept by thought ??

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lorn
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Re: This way to the gate - anybody?

Postby lorn » Thu Jan 12, 2012 5:54 pm

(...) clearly the removal of some beliefs cannot be a thing.
yes, that is clear.
Suffering will morph when the identification with a story is detached. The suffering is almost certainly the result of habit or conditioning. This is what is undone when it is simply seen to occur.
i am not suffering, but there it still is. i am suffering; the very sensations of self, even seen-through illusory self, are that. these tensions, distortions of attention, the sensations of anger, fear, desire, aversion, love, sadness, etc. --these are what 'i' am. i can only ever feel that i am present, when these are present in some form, however subtle. in the absence of that there is only what occurs at the senses, as it is, and it is irrefutably perfect. what i refer to as suffering is those tensions, and, empty preferences aside, they continue to arise, whether identified with or not.
What is deep ? Something you know about from experience or second hand knowledge or a concept by thought ??
not deep, as in, though there is no one here, he still manages to get himself into trouble.

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vinceschubert
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Re: This way to the gate - anybody?

Postby vinceschubert » Thu Jan 12, 2012 10:28 pm

the very sensations of self
the sensations of anger, fear, desire, aversion, love, sadness, etc. --these are what 'i' am
Explain the identification seen here.

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lorn
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Re: This way to the gate - anybody?

Postby lorn » Thu Jan 12, 2012 11:12 pm

Explain the identification seen here.
there isn't any.

four years ago these sensations fell into abeyance for a short while, after observing them continuously for few months. they were absent, and so was anything that ever looked like 'me'. at the eyes, only seeing, at the ears, only hearing, etc. thinking still occurred, but not thoughts of self. then the thinking/feeling self returned and hastily reasserted its position on the matter.

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vinceschubert
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Re: This way to the gate - anybody?

Postby vinceschubert » Fri Jan 13, 2012 3:13 am

four years ago these sensations fell into abeyance for a short while,...at the eyes, only seeing, at the ears, only hearing, etc. thinking still occurred, but not thoughts of self.
Here is is obvious that it was the organism doing it's part in the totality that seeing is.
then the thinking/feeling self returned and hastily reasserted its position on the matter.
Here ownership of the happening has occurred. That is identification with the story. The happening was the same but the perspective that it was witnessed from was different. The outcome is now distorted.
Is this accurate ?
Lorn, language is a bitch, which makes it hard to describe experience. That is why this burrowing down, to find clarity.
What is your experience of clarity ?

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lorn
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Re: This way to the gate - anybody?

Postby lorn » Fri Jan 13, 2012 6:37 am

What is your experience of clarity ?
clarity of what?

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vinceschubert
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Re: This way to the gate - anybody?

Postby vinceschubert » Fri Jan 13, 2012 9:30 am

Clarity of seeing how it works, now life-ing happens.
Describe your experiencing in terms of clarity.

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lorn
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Re: This way to the gate - anybody?

Postby lorn » Fri Jan 13, 2012 8:16 pm

just what's happening. what is there to describe? no here, no there, just this. how does it happen? i don't know.
i don't know what it means to describe my experience in terms of clarity. some components of experience are clearer than others, depending on how attention is operating at any given moment. things could no doubt be clearer.

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vinceschubert
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Re: This way to the gate - anybody?

Postby vinceschubert » Fri Jan 13, 2012 11:46 pm

Lorn, do you exist?

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lorn
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Re: This way to the gate - anybody?

Postby lorn » Sat Jan 14, 2012 12:52 am

no. never have, never will.


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