requesting guidance

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rosy
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Re: requesting guidance

Postby rosy » Fri May 17, 2013 6:37 pm

‘ Just watch the thoughts come and go. As you does this consider: Where do thoughts come from? Are they the product of a ‘thinker’ or do they just arise? Where do they go? What size or shape are they? What do they feel like? And can you discern a connection between thoughts?’

This was useful – some thoughts seemed more related to what was being experienced by the senses than others. I feel a bit liberated from judgments about thoughts right now, a bit more open to seeing that they just occur like objects in view or sounds in hearing. I feel less split because of this. I can also see that thoughts are just little events occurring all the time like eddies in water or wind. This really helps me to see the transparency of ‘myself’ – I feel much lighter.
I tried to look at thoughts in the same way as I have been aware of looking at the senses. I did this various places today – at work, driving in Ikea.....
While driving I noticed the complete randomness of lots of thoughts – just fragments of sentences sometimes as though the mind was trying to get a hold – this was actually quite funny. Later at school there was a confrontation with an aggressive student and I noticed how I drew back into ‘selfing’ immediately and reacted to him.
I’ve been working with trying to hold all the sense sensations and the thoughts in awareness simultaneously – this when I can glimpse how ‘I’ am not there at all there is just a fully experience of being alive. When I do this everything flows simply and effortlessly – even in Ikea.

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Jack'n'theBox
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Re: requesting guidance

Postby Jack'n'theBox » Fri May 17, 2013 9:30 pm

‘ Just watch the thoughts come and go. As you does this consider: Where do thoughts come from? Are they the product of a ‘thinker’ or do they just arise? Where do they go? What size or shape are they? What do they feel like? And can you discern a connection between thoughts?’

This was useful – some thoughts seemed more related to what was being experienced by the senses than others. I feel a bit liberated from judgments about thoughts right now, a bit more open to seeing that they just occur like objects in view or sounds in hearing. I feel less split because of this. I can also see that thoughts are just little events occurring all the time like eddies in water or wind. This really helps me to see the transparency of ‘myself’ – I feel much lighter.
Who is it that “sees” thoughts? Who is the “I” that feels lighter – is there not simply a feeling of lightness – check and see.
I tried to look at thoughts in the same way as I have been aware of looking at the senses. I did this various places today – at work, driving in Ikea.....
Who is this “I” that “looks at” thoughts? Go back to the direct experience. Thoughts arise and pass away in awareness. Who is it that is “looking”? Can you find this “looker”?
While driving I noticed the complete randomness of lots of thoughts – just fragments of sentences sometimes as though the mind was trying to get a hold – this was actually quite funny.
This is important. We like to think that we are “integrated” human beings, that our lives are coherent and make sense. But when we are aware of thoughts in experience, are they really coherent? Are they profound? Are they even interesting? Or is the mind simply going “blah blah blah blah blah” quite autonomously from any “thinker”?
Later at school there was a confrontation with an aggressive student and I noticed how I drew back into ‘selfing’ immediately and reacted to him.
Good to notice this. But who “drew back”? Was there not simply an automatic reaction to stimulus?
I’ve been working with trying to hold all the sense sensations and the thoughts in awareness simultaneously – this when I can glimpse how ‘I’ am not there at all there is just a fully experience of being alive. When I do this everything flows simply and effortlessly – even in Ikea.
Good. Keep on doing this. But I’ll ask you again what is it that “holds” these sensations? Is it “me” doing this? Or are senses, feelings, thoughts just appearing in awareness?
You need to drop the observer. Once you’ve seen that the “I” thoughts aren’t “me” and neither is the raw sense experience, there is a tendency to project the sense of “me” onto awareness itself . . . “I am aware of . . .” Is there an “I” that is aware or is there simply awareness. Keep on going back to the practice and checking this.
You could also watch Elena’s video on the LU homepage called “drop the observer”.
Please do this and report back what you find.
People see it far away. What a pity! They are like a man who, standing in water, complains of thirst -- Hakuin

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rosy
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Re: requesting guidance

Postby rosy » Sat May 18, 2013 5:41 pm

I get the image of a plant, just growing, producing leaves and offshoots as it does it. Different from its neighbour for no discernible reason, just life expressing itself in plant form. Life is also pouring through ‘me’ like that – I’m not in control at all, my life just is as it is in this moment.

When I look for the ‘looker’ there is no one – just awareness doing its stuff, dancing around.
There are moments of lucidity and clarity and then times of being completely caught up in the trance of me again. My mind is making much of moving house – there seems to be a lot to think about. In fact, part of the time decisions are being made, connections arranged etc with little effort. Trying to contact BT about setting up a new phone/broadband line deflated any notion of being consistently dissolved however. So it goes. I notice the contrast of subtle inner work being done while an actual physical move is also underway – I do feel both freed up and at sea.

On dropping the observer ....I watched Elena’s video and was struck by what she said about childhood. I can remember moments of childhood absorption, smells and tastes and feelings without much cognitive analysis going on. They seemed like dhyanic moments and I wonder about the dhyanas now. When I had my 1st taste of seeing through ‘myself’ it felt dhyanic and not having any other framework for it I returned to a formal meditation practice to try and develop this experience. This didn’t work! And is some time ago now. ...I often think of the Buddha and his returning after austerities to the memory of being a child and sitting under the rose-apple tree. It is not often commented on yet it’s a little story that does point to the simplicity and directness of this ‘undoing’. Elena makes that point very beautifully and directly. Letting go of the adult accretions, views, concerns, habits sometimes feels like an impossibility ...and then in a moment they’re gone and consciousness is all there is.

‘We like to think we are ‘integrated’ human beings, that our lives are coherent and make sense. But when we are aware of thoughts in experience, are they really coherent? Are they profound? Are they even interesting? Or is the mind simply going blah blah blah blah blah blah quite autonomously from any ‘thinker’?
Yep, definitely blah blah – but it is so slippery too, thoughts keep popping up in such quick succession trying to hit on something that will transfix me for a while. Looking for what lies behind often seems a bit hit or miss. Sometimes in the most unlikely moments there is just looking or noticing with nothing getting in the way. At other times old resentments loom large – as though my mind knows exactly which buttons to press to keep itself in full employment. Is it afraid of redundancy?

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Jack'n'theBox
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Re: requesting guidance

Postby Jack'n'theBox » Sat May 18, 2013 9:44 pm

I get the image of a plant, just growing, producing leaves and offshoots as it does it. Different from its neighbour for no discernible reason, just life expressing itself in plant form. Life is also pouring through ‘me’ like that – I’m not in control at all, my life just is as it is in this moment.
That’s a great metaphor Rosie. Does a plant think ‘I need to grow bigger leaves?’ or ‘I hate that plant next to me that puts me in the shade?’ No, it doesn’t. Just as you say – it simply expresses life without itself ‘doing’ anything.

There are moments of lucidity and clarity and then times of being completely caught up in the trance of me again. My mind is making much of moving house – there seems to be a lot to think about. In fact, part of the time decisions are being made, connections arranged etc with little effort. Trying to contact BT about setting up a new phone/broadband line deflated any notion of being consistently dissolved however.
Good to notice that thing about decision making. Is there an ‘I’ that chooses one thing over another or that makes things happen? or do decisions make themselves? Let’s check this in experience through doing the following exercise:
o Tap with two or three fingers on the leg. Tap, tap, tap. Then, hold the fingers poised ready to tap. Just waiting in the air for a command to tap.

Looking at the fingers in the air, it’s not quite known when they will tap. In fact, the thought “tap now” can quite happily show up and yet the fingers remain in the air.

See if you can notice the moment when the command is issued and from whence it comes SUCH THAT the fingers simply have to obey. Notice if other commands to tap can be issued which have no effect on the fingers, leaving them remaining in the air.

Is it true that in direct experience there is no command that can be issued to make the fingers tap?

What causes the finger to tap? Anything? See what can be discovered in experience rather than thought.
If there is no ‘decision maker’ in your life – what are the implications of this realisation?
When I had my 1st taste of seeing through ‘myself’ it felt dhyanic and not having any other framework for it I returned to a formal meditation practice to try and develop this experience.
Well I’ve got news for you Rosy, your ‘self’ doesn’t exist – so trying to ‘develop’ an experience of no-self is a bit of a non-starter, as you discovered! Don’t look outside the present moment – realization of no-self is in whatever is going on NOW. Just look.
Letting go of the adult accretions, views, concerns, habits sometimes feels like an impossibility ...and then in a moment they’re gone and consciousness is all there is.
OK but what is it that ‘lets go’? Is there really something (‘me’?) that is holding on, or do you just think there is?
Yep, definitely blah blah – but it is so slippery too, thoughts keep popping up in such quick succession trying to hit on something that will transfix me for a while.
The mind runs on language which is inherently dualistic. You can’t think your way into a realization of n self. The mind doesn’t support that software. You need to reboot the system and the key to that is to attend to the operating system – which is what happens before the mind/thoughts intervene – direct experience – so stay with the awareness exercises you’ve been doing.
At other times old resentments loom large – as though my mind knows exactly which buttons to press to keep itself in full employment. Is it afraid of redundancy?
Don’t project agency on to the mind – the mind is just a bunch of random thoughts and associated feelings. Let the mind do its thing but keep coming back to direct experience. Fear is good – it shows you are pushing against some resistance. Look at the fear, take it apart into its constituent elements – what is it that feels this fear?
People see it far away. What a pity! They are like a man who, standing in water, complains of thirst -- Hakuin

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rosy
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Re: requesting guidance

Postby rosy » Sun May 19, 2013 5:49 pm

Hi Mark,
Thanks for your time with me – this is indeed a wonderful thing that you and the others are doing!

‘Good to notice that thing about decision making. Is there an ‘I’ that chooses one thing over another or that makes things happen? or do decisions make themselves? Let’s check this in experience through doing the following exercise:
o Tap with two or three fingers on the leg. Tap, tap, tap. Then, hold the fingers poised ready to tap. Just waiting in the air for a command to tap.’

The finger tapping exercise was quite a revelation! Really funny – all that weight of responsibility for decisions and here they seem to be operating fine without me!
I went to a morning of Mindfulness practice which is something I started doing before I discovered non-duality. It seems to go quite well with the exercises I’m doing with you and its good to practice around other people once in a while I find. While doing mindful walking outside, I noticed that I said to myself ‘I think I’ll walk up this path’ when in fact I was already walking up it.

‘Well I’ve got news for you Rosy, your ‘self’ doesn’t exist – so trying to ‘develop’ an experience of no-self is a bit of a non-starter, as you discovered! Don’t look outside the present moment – realization of no-self is in whatever is going on NOW. Just look.’

Ha. Thanks for this. Although I kind of know I need to just keep returning to present experience, I seem to flail around internally and externally trying to find a ‘me’. I’m trying to ‘do’ this – perhaps I can just trust it to ‘undo me’ instead? ….But then aren’t the exercises a way of developing this? Or is that just semantics?
‘The mind runs on language which is inherently dualistic. You can’t think your way into a realization of no self. The mind doesn’t support that software. You need to reboot the system and the key to that is to attend to the operating system – which is what happens before the mind/thoughts intervene – direct experience – so stay with the awareness exercises you’ve been doing.’

This is a useful metaphor indeed – language is quite tricky here sometimes – can be clumsy in much more pragmatic situations but when talking about this stuff….....and as you say the internal dialogues of the mind are having a go at this and often obscuring the raw experience.
I notice more space and calmness, nothing extraordinary but a loosening of identification with thoughts in particular.
Rosy x

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Re: requesting guidance

Postby Jack'n'theBox » Sun May 19, 2013 8:39 pm

While doing mindful walking outside, I noticed that I said to myself ‘I think I’ll walk up this path’ when in fact I was already walking up it.
So what are the implications of the fact that no ‘doer’ can be found?
I need to just keep returning to present experience, I seem to flail around internally and externally trying to find a ‘me’. I’m trying to ‘do’ this – perhaps I can just trust it to ‘undo me’ instead?
You still seem to have this idea that there is somewhere or something other than the present moment. Is this true? What ‘returns’ to present experience? What tries to find ‘me’? Are these not just thoughts or is there something else? Take a look.
and as you say the internal dialogues of the mind are having a go at this and often obscuring the raw experience.
Thoughts come and go – but go back to a question I asked you before – can you discern a connection between thoughts? If not, what are the implications of this?
I notice more space and calmness, nothing extraordinary but a loosening of identification with thoughts in particular.
OK that’s good. Let’s keep pushing away at this. Consider the statements below and report back what comes up:

Is the body the experiencer or is the body experienced?

You have seen that feeling, seeing and hearing are happening without an entity (a someone) doing them. So is there really an observer, or is this just a function of awareness? One might call it a aware-ing, a verb rather than a noun.

Could it be that observing/aware-ing is happening in “This” without a someone that it is happening to and without a someone that is doing it?

What feelings does this bring up?
People see it far away. What a pity! They are like a man who, standing in water, complains of thirst -- Hakuin

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rosy
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Re: requesting guidance

Postby rosy » Mon May 20, 2013 6:11 pm

Thanks Mark, here's what has come up today -

‘So what are the implications of the fact that no doer can be found?’

This means that the self I believe to be charge of everything is nonexistent, that in fact life just arranges itself in whatever way on its own, without help from ‘me’.

‘What ‘returns’ to present experience?’

This is just thoughts about thoughts. This whole ‘looking’ business is just thought....

‘Is the body the experience or is the body experienced?’

The body is experienced – awareness is primary and manifests the experience of the body. Tension is there when the belief that ‘I’ am in control asserts itself - felt this today when observing two people mis-communicating – felt a ‘tensing’ as if I had some influence over what was unfolding.

‘Is there really an observer?’

Nope, there is just what is going on going on – aware-ing is a helpful way to describe it!

‘Could it be that observing/aware-ing is happening in ‘This’ without a someone that it is happening to and without someone that is doing it? – What feelings does this bring up?’

Yes! Ah...a penny dropped.......lots of fizzy physical sensations and like a kind of inner gong had been rung. Seeing that what I’m trying to ‘do’ is just another layer of thought was really helpful!

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Re: requesting guidance

Postby Jack'n'theBox » Mon May 20, 2013 9:02 pm

‘So what are the implications of the fact that no doer can be found?’

This means that the self I believe to be charge of everything is nonexistent, that in fact life just arranges itself in whatever way on its own, without help from ‘me’.
OK good.
‘What ‘returns’ to present experience?’

This is just thoughts about thoughts. This whole ‘looking’ business is just thought....
Yes, good, there is only ever present experience and this includes thoughts about the ‘past’ or ‘future’.
‘Is the body the experience or is the body experienced?’

The body is experienced – awareness is primary and manifests the experience of the body. Tension is there when the belief that ‘I’ am in control asserts itself - felt this today when observing two people mis-communicating – felt a ‘tensing’ as if I had some influence over what was unfolding.
Good to notice this. The ‘I’ thoughts often think they need to get involved in other people’s business – usually connected with ‘should’ thoughts (i.e. people/reality ‘should’ really be doing what your ‘I’ thoughts suggest – not what they are in reality doing). Let’s be careful not to project agency onto awareness, though. Awareness can’t in itself manifest or produce anything, it’s simply the space in which experience manifests itself.
‘Is there really an observer?’

Nope, there is just what is going on going on – aware-ing is a helpful way to describe it!

‘Could it be that observing/aware-ing is happening in ‘This’ without a someone that it is happening to and without someone that is doing it? – What feelings does this bring up?’

Yes! Ah...a penny dropped.......lots of fizzy physical sensations and like a kind of inner gong had been rung. Seeing that what I’m trying to ‘do’ is just another layer of thought was really helpful!
That’s great Rosy. Physical sensations (like little electric shocks) can sometimes indicate that understanding has moved beyond a purely conceptual level. Let’s keep pushing away for a bit longer to see if there has been a permanent shift.

Have a look at Ilona’s blog on self-lableing and do the exercise she recommends with pen and paper and report back on what this brings up: http://markedeternal.blogspot.co.uk/201 ... s.html?m=1
People see it far away. What a pity! They are like a man who, standing in water, complains of thirst -- Hakuin

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Re: requesting guidance

Postby rosy » Tue May 21, 2013 5:53 pm

Hi Mark,
Definitely different here but still plenty of me-ing going on. I bumped my head and I was very aware of it being my head!

I woke up with a great deal of spaciousness – thoughts still but a different balance of experience. More softness and transparency somehow. A bit amazed at a different quality of being, wondering how ‘real ‘ it is! I’m surprised that with so much to ‘do’ (what with house move etc) everything is going very calmly and nice things keep happening to support the move. Normally this would be an anxious time for me.

I loved Ilona’s blog on self-labelling and did the exercises – lovely simple but effective way to show the contrast. There was much more softness and openness around when not using ‘Iam’. Just shows the power of language and terms. Someone said that ‘the body is the truth’ and I notice when there are little ‘risings up’ in reaction to events ( like difficulties with BT) or flinches when something touches on a sore ‘me’ spot. These didn’t have a long or lasting impact today but I guess I noticed them because they stood out in a much calmer landscape.

Still noticing story-lines and being caught in them - but not so much judgement. There is also quietness but this doesn’t descend into sadness as often happens.
Rosy x

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Re: requesting guidance

Postby Jack'n'theBox » Tue May 21, 2013 8:23 pm

Definitely different here but still plenty of me-ing going on. I bumped my head and I was very aware of it being my head!
Pain is an interesting thing to look at. If you do have a pain it is useful to sit with it and look at in direct experience. What starts off as “pain in my head” as a thought in direct experience is more like throbbing or pulsating or tingling experience – the labels “pain” (which then triggers emotional aversion or frustration) and “my head” (which personalizes the experience and actually intensifies it because, Oh no! It’s happening to “me’!) are add-ons by the mind. While you are doing this it’s useful to consider, can a boundary be found in experience where "body" ends and "outside the body" begins ?

Notice how easy it is to fall back into thoughts about “my head”, “my back”, “my body” sitting on a chair. All thoughts will indicate is the assumptions and beliefs that are already there – that these sensations/experiences are happening to “me”. You have to see (not think) that thoughts are just labels. Some point to real things that can be found in the experience of the body like pulsating/tingling sensation or sense of firmness -- others point to non-existent things like Santa or "me". Notice how the label “my” relies on the assumption there is a “me”.
I woke up with a great deal of spaciousness – thoughts still but a different balance of experience. More softness and transparency somehow. A bit amazed at a different quality of being, wondering how ‘real ‘ it is! I’m surprised that with so much to ‘do’ (what with house move etc) everything is going very calmly and nice things keep happening to support the move. Normally this would be an anxious time for me.
This is good – realization of no-self should flow through into daily experience but it doesn’t result in a permanently calm state – life can still get frantic – but there is less inclination to get caught up in “the drama” incited by thoughts.

Still noticing story-lines and being caught in them - but not so much judgement. There is also quietness but this doesn’t descend into sadness as often happens.
Good to not get caught up in the mind’s “me story” – reflect on the quote below and let me know what comes up:
‘There is no “me” in any shape or form, in reality. There can be a thought-created “I” in a story told about “me.” But the thought-created “I” doesn’t refer to anything at all. It’s just a thought.’
People see it far away. What a pity! They are like a man who, standing in water, complains of thirst -- Hakuin

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Re: requesting guidance

Postby rosy » Wed May 22, 2013 6:44 pm

Hi Mark,
‘’Can a boundary be found in experience where ‘body’ ends and ‘outside the body’ begins?’

No, I get what you mean about pain in direct experience. The sudden unexpectedness of the bump yesterday felt like an instantaneous if fleeting boundary...writing this now it’s just a thought memory!

Banged my head again today (ha ha)...and no reaction this time! Just a bumped head. Later on I had an experience of feeling like water, on top of which was floating leaves in the shape of a ‘me’ and underneath the water was constantly flowing and changing while the pattern of leaves moved above. Very Ophelia. And this was experienced with those little fizzy, electric currents shooting through .

‘Notice how the label ‘my’ relies on the assumption there is a ‘me’’

Yes, the language evokes the imaginary reality. I notice either sitting, standing or lying down and the constant stream of sensations...not a substantial entity of ‘me’ at all.

‘This is good – realization of no-self should flow through into daily experience but it doesn’t result in a permanently calm state – life can still be frantic – but there is less inclination to get caught up in ‘the drama’ incited by thoughts’

Yes I notice less inner drama, and sometimes a quick quenching of drama when it seems to want to get started. Can you say something about the difference (if there is any) between the realization of no-self and the experience of living in the present moment?

‘There is no ‘me’ in any shape or form, in reality. There can be a thought-created ‘I’ in a story about ‘me’. But the thought-created ‘I’ doesn’t refer to anything at all. It’s just a thought.’

Yes, any referring to ‘me’ in the past is just a story concocted to establish more stuff about ‘me’ – to convince myself and others that I exist! However, it is a normal way to communicate and it would be hard to converse with others without using these forms surely? This is hard because the language gives rise to illusions of solidity etc as you’ve pointed out, so it’s not helpful but it seems to be unavoidable.......
x

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Re: requesting guidance

Postby Jack'n'theBox » Wed May 22, 2013 8:48 pm

‘’Can a boundary be found in experience where ‘body’ ends and ‘outside the body’ begins?’

No, I get what you mean about pain in direct experience. The sudden unexpectedness of the bump yesterday felt like an instantaneous if fleeting boundary...writing this now it’s just a thought memory!

Banged my head again today (ha ha)...and no reaction this time! Just a bumped head. Later on I had an experience of feeling like water, on top of which was floating leaves in the shape of a ‘me’ and underneath the water was constantly flowing and changing while the pattern of leaves moved above. Very Ophelia. And this was experienced with those little fizzy, electric currents shooting through .
Hi Rosy, this is a good sign. After a while in these conversations it is easy to understand the IDEA of no-self as a concept but what we are trying to do is SEE this as a fact in direct experience. This seeing does have the effect of ‘rewiring’ the relationship to ‘the body’ and it is no-longer experienced as such a hard, fixed boundary between ‘me’ (subject) and ‘the world’ (object). The water metaphor is a nice one – I experienced something similar.

‘Notice how the label ‘my’ relies on the assumption there is a ‘me’’

Yes, the language evokes the imaginary reality. I notice either sitting, standing or lying down and the constant stream of sensations...not a substantial entity of ‘me’ at all.
Good to see how language works here. Be mindful, though, as we discussed that the sense of ‘me’ doesn’t try to stick on to the awareness in which these sensations arise. Let’s check again . . .what is the ‘I’ that is noticing these things? Is there not simply a stream of experience followed by ‘I’ thoughts? Can you look at this stream and tell me exactly what’s going on?
‘This is good – realization of no-self should flow through into daily experience but it doesn’t result in a permanently calm state – life can still be frantic – but there is less inclination to get caught up in ‘the drama’ incited by thoughts’

Yes I notice less inner drama, and sometimes a quick quenching of drama when it seems to want to get started. Can you say something about the difference (if there is any) between the realization of no-self and the experience of living in the present moment?
OK, good. Let’s look at this tendency for the mind to dramatise things. Remember our conversation about how ‘could’, ‘should’ and ‘what if’ thoughts are something to look out for – these thoughts can carry the mind off on a fantasy journey imagining what could/should/might have happened/be happening/will happen . . . all this is just mind banging on. Reality is what is happening in the moment – it happens whether your mind thinks it should or not. So the ‘drama’ and the suffering it engenders is mind-made. Suffering is something you do to yourself. Even a bump on the head – OK maybe someone else hits you on the head, they cause the pain – but your mind multiplies that endlessly in stories about why they hit you, what you could/should have done, what you want to do to them in revenge etc. In reality all that is going on is there is a throbbing sensation – what comes next, the labeling of this as pain, the recriminations, the endlessly telling others about it, the ‘poor me’ scenarios – all this is mind. So watch for this tendency for the mind to run off into story land and when it does allow attention to return to the experience in the moment.
Concerning realization of no-self – it’s not something that is constantly present as an idea – it’s like when you stop believing in Santa – you don’t need to remind yourself that he doesn’t exist – you’ve already seen through the myth. Selfing thoughts will still arise particularly when under stress. When this happens just let awareness return to the present moment (in reality there is only the present moment anyway – but thoughts can seem to distract from this).
‘There is no ‘me’ in any shape or form, in reality. There can be a thought-created ‘I’ in a story about ‘me’. But the thought-created ‘I’ doesn’t refer to anything at all. It’s just a thought.’

Yes, any referring to ‘me’ in the past is just a story concocted to establish more stuff about ‘me’ – to convince myself and others that I exist! However, it is a normal way to communicate and it would be hard to converse with others without using these forms surely? This is hard because the language gives rise to illusions of solidity etc as you’ve pointed out, so it’s not helpful but it seems to be unavoidable.......
Yes we still have to use language and it’s not like we stop using personal names or pronouns. The habits of a lifetime are not broken by realization of no-self. ‘Selfing’ still continues and craving and aversion (pulling toward/pushing away) in relation to experience still manifest – but by allowing awareness to rest in the moment and not following the ‘I’ story we can see these things are happening to no-one so they don’t become fuel for the process of further self-building.
If you could look again as I suggest above, at what’s going on in the stream of experience and where the ‘I’ gets involved in this and get back to me that would be great – try not to theorise it. Sit for ten minutes and look at what’s going on in experience then describe in detail what is seen there.
People see it far away. What a pity! They are like a man who, standing in water, complains of thirst -- Hakuin

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Re: requesting guidance

Postby rosy » Thu May 23, 2013 6:26 pm

Hi Mark,
Lots of anxious energy today (related to moving and sorting out the move). This is to do with insecurity and there is a lot of vulnerability around it which is familiar stuff.

‘Selfing thoughts will still arise particularly when under stress. When this happens, just let awareness return to the present moment (in reality there is only the present moment anyway – but thoughts seem to distract from this)’

While driving I was just allowing the physical sensations of anxiety to be and exploring them gently – tension in my stomach and chest. I noticed that this gave rise to thoughts about arranging things to make myself secure in various ways. Then the thoughts moved into an imaginary conversation where I was justifying myself to someone - trying to explain my life to them! Today has been like this on and off – more in the trance again. Just kept returning to the present moment when I noticed this.

‘Concerning realization of no-self – it’s not something that is constantly present as an idea – it’s like when you stop believing in Santa – you don’t need to remind yourself that he doesn’t exist – you’ve already seen through the myth.'

Like the simile of Santa – it is a good one! I do notice that when things are just flowing there isn’t any requirement to be ‘hanging onto’ the experience of no-self, things just flow smoothly like honey and often I’m much more aware of other people than of ‘myself’.

‘Sit for ten minutes and look at what’s going on in experience then describe in detail what is seen there.’

Did this and here is the report –
Sensations , hearing sounds, tingling, constrictions, sounds, words and fragmentary thoughts , sensations, sounds etc..... till after a few minutes the thought ‘I don’t think I’m doing this right’! This was the 1st sort of solid ‘I’ thought and I had to laugh as it is quite typical!
So it seems to be a bit rocky right now – ups and downs or smooth then choppy....
x

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Jack'n'theBox
Posts: 749
Joined: Sun Apr 07, 2013 5:55 am

Re: requesting guidance

Postby Jack'n'theBox » Thu May 23, 2013 8:39 pm


‘Sit for ten minutes and look at what’s going on in experience then describe in detail what is seen there.’

Did this and here is the report –
Sensations , hearing sounds, tingling, constrictions, sounds, words and fragmentary thoughts , sensations, sounds etc..... till after a few minutes the thought ‘I don’t think I’m doing this right’! This was the 1st sort of solid ‘I’ thought and I had to laugh as it is quite typical!
So it seems to be a bit rocky right now – ups and downs or smooth then choppy....
x
Hi Rosy it's useful during the 'rocky' bits when the mind is spinning some story or other to do this exercise and just sit with experience to check in with what's REALLY going on, not some thought story. Smooth and choppy states will continue to arise but when attending to direct experience we neither pull them in nor push them away because it is clear they are happening to no-one.

So let's check where we are at. Have you SEEN that there is no self behind the actions? No experience-er? Please write your response to this question -- don't think about it or intellectualise it -- just write what you see (or feel) from direct experience:

Is there a self, a 'me' in any shape or form that is the originator and subject of experience?
People see it far away. What a pity! They are like a man who, standing in water, complains of thirst -- Hakuin

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rosy
Posts: 19
Joined: Sun May 05, 2013 12:42 pm

Re: requesting guidance

Postby rosy » Thu May 23, 2013 10:15 pm

Hi Mark
A quickie -
‘So let's check where we are at. Have you SEEN that there is no self behind the actions? No experience-er? Please write your response to this question -- don't think about it or intellectualise it -- just write what you see (or feel) from direct experience:’
OK. Yes, I can see there is no self behind the actions – just a flow of energies with thought as part of a kind of orchestra of stuff going on.

‘Is there a self, a 'me' in any shape or form that is the originator and subject of experience?’
No. No originator – just layering of thoughts on top of experience, which sometimes claim to be the originator!
No cymbals, rainbows or hosts of angelic beings….but definitely no self behind the actions. Which is liberating, as this website suggests!
x


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