point the way

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jwhooper
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Re: point the way

Postby jwhooper » Wed Dec 07, 2011 8:41 pm

I see my self now as a movie. It is ultimately fiction, but it is easy to get lost in the story, just like when watching a dramatic movie. So I keep getting caught up in the story, but then I remember it is not real.

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Ingen
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Re: point the way

Postby Ingen » Wed Dec 07, 2011 9:35 pm

Still no jumping up and down? Maybe you just don't like to write many words. But it sounds like you are seeing it...I mean you see there is nothing to see!

Could I entice you to write a piece at length about the following questions? Take your time, write detailed!

1) Is there a you, at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form?
2) Explain in detail what the self is and how it works.
3) How does it feel to be liberated?
4) how would you describe it to somebody who has never heard about no you.

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jwhooper
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Re: point the way

Postby jwhooper » Thu Dec 08, 2011 3:22 pm

1) Is there a you, at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form?
No. There is a physical body, and a mind with a lot of conditioning. There are sensations that interplay with the thought networks of the mind. But there is no separate agent controlling or deciding anything, or to which anything is happening. Body, mind, awareness, that's all.
2) Explain in detail what the self is and how it works.
The self is interplay between the body, mind, and awareness. A sensation arises in awareness, it sets off a network of thought in the mind, and the chain reaction plays out, or thought gets caught in a feedback loop. The story of me is part of the network of thought, and while it can be treated as real, like a superstitious belief it is not based in reality -- it is a story, a belief. Try to find it, and it is not there. Test it, and it does not exist.
3) How does it feel to be liberated?
If this is liberation, it feels like a big letdown. I was expecting it to be a huge relief, and instead things feel basically the same. Awareness of how the self is fabricated seems to short-circuit the feedback loop, but it is embedded in so many ways that it is continually starting up. It is often quite subtle and escapes the attention for a while.
4) how would you describe it to somebody who has never heard about no you.
The way I have explained it is that I used to wonder why the stories of Santa Claus and the Tooth Fairy are taught to small children. It didn't make sense, because the maturing mind will eventually see through these stories. During this time, most children are being taught religion as well. Didn't it logically follow that, having been fooled before, these stories would ultimately cause children to question the story of their religion as well? It didn't make sense to me, because the cultures wanted children to believe in their religion. So why trick children with stories, and then want them to believe an even bigger story?

However, I had it all wrong. The stories of Santa Claus and the Tooth Fairy aren't about the existence of God, they are about the existence of self. It is our stories of ourselves, the me, that we should come to question. Does the me really exist? Santa seemed real. In the morning there were presents. The self seems real. I have my own name, I own a car, and everyone treats me as a separate entity with free will. There is collusion to make it seem real. It is exactly like Santa Claus and the Tooth Fairy. There is no Santa, and there is no you.

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Ingen
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Re: point the way

Postby Ingen » Thu Dec 08, 2011 3:39 pm

"If this is liberation, it is a big letdown".
Is it liberation? Are you "liberated" from the illusion of self?

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jwhooper
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Re: point the way

Postby jwhooper » Thu Dec 08, 2011 7:09 pm

Is it liberation? Are you "liberated" from the illusion of self?
Yes, from the illusion of self, but I am not free of the never-ending cycle of sensations tripping off a lightining quick chain reaction of thoughts centered around me, making it seem real for as long as it goes unnoticed. I think our discussion has helped me to notice a lot sooner, and also to clear up the confusion I had that fearful sensations were proof of the self in operation, when in fact they are only sensations that trip off a bunch of thoughts centered around a me.

Given what I know about the way the brain works, these networks should diminish over time if they are not given more energy through belief.

I guess what I was expecting was the cessation of the me, but it isn't really like the story of the Tooth Fairy. The Tooth fairy believe is not embedded in practically every network of thought in my brain. It was radically altered the moment belief stopped. The self is not so easy, apparently.

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Ingen
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Re: point the way

Postby Ingen » Thu Dec 08, 2011 7:30 pm

Was there a belief in the Big Santa Liberation? :)
I guess what I was expecting was the cessation of the me, but it isn't really like the story of the Tooth Fairy. The Tooth fairy believe is not embedded in practically every network of thought in my brain. It was radically altered the moment belief stopped. The self is not so easy, apparently.
In my experience "selfing" keeps happening, but I get better in noticing it, and that is all that is required. You are probably right with
Given what I know about the way the brain works, these networks should diminish over time if they are not given more energy through belief.
We have an "aftercare" group with a lot of discussion about how to deal with "stuff" after the Gate.

Do you understand now why it is called "Gateless Gate"?

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jwhooper
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Re: point the way

Postby jwhooper » Thu Dec 08, 2011 8:16 pm

Do you understand now why it is called "Gateless Gate"?
Yes, but I have a lot of trouble trying to put it into words. The me can't pass through the gate. Without the me there is no gate. Understanding this is passing through the gateless gate.

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Ingen
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Re: point the way

Postby Ingen » Fri Dec 09, 2011 12:25 pm

3) How does it feel to be liberated?
If this is liberation, it feels like a big letdown. I was expecting it to be a huge relief, and instead things feel basically the same. Awareness of how the self is fabricated seems to short-circuit the feedback loop, but it is embedded in so many ways that it is continually starting up. It is often quite subtle and escapes the attention for a while.
How does it feel now? Apart from the letdown at there weren't the expected bliss and instantaneous peace? Is the shift in perspective tangible, or is it more theoretical?

I guess what I was expecting was the cessation of the me,
Do you see why this didn't happen?

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jwhooper
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Re: point the way

Postby jwhooper » Fri Dec 09, 2011 9:29 pm

How does it feel now? Apart from the letdown at there weren't the expected bliss and instantaneous peace? Is the shift in perspective tangible, or is it more theoretical?
I was constantly being caught up in the me story and occasionally catching myself before. Now I am not caught up in the story most of the time, and only occasionally slip back into it. So it is a tangible difference. I am not letting sensations set off a long, energy-draining drama involving me. When the story does start playing, I notice it as a story, and it has no force.
Do you see why this didn't happen?
Yes. Because of the way it works. Because it isn't like the story of Santa Claus. Santa Claus isn't part of practically every network of thought in my brain. It is just a separate story, and so the belief in Santa can just collapse all at once and be completely eliminated. When the belief in self is gone, the story is still ingrained in countless ways, associated in some way with practically every other thought, so the story will come up again and again. It can be seen to be just a story, but the entire structure will not simply collapse all at once, it is networked into practically every web of thought, even into our languages.

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Ingen
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Re: point the way

Postby Ingen » Sat Dec 10, 2011 3:48 pm

It can be seen to be just a story, but the entire structure will not simply collapse all at once, it is networked into practically every web of thought, even into our languages.
I actually think (our) language and the "I" myth are intrinsically connected. We are living in a world of language. But here we are off in philosophizing...
I am not letting sensations set off a long, energy-draining drama involving me. When the story does start playing, I notice it as a story, and it has no force.
Yes, great. This:
I used to read a lot of Krishnamurti, and that is what he said. Well, to be more exact, he said that fear was always related to attachment on some level.
is not wrong. When you see the story playing without identifying, that means dropping attachments.

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jwhooper
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Re: point the way

Postby jwhooper » Sat Dec 10, 2011 9:43 pm

Thank you for your help. Maybe you can advise me on how to handle all of the emotional stuff that arises. Say, for instance, someone says something unflattering or mean about me. OK, so the me is just a story, no reason to be upset. But wait, I do have a relationship with this person. I do have emotions, they can't be denied. These negative things I am hearing are bringing up anger, or sadness. This is my most difficult time. I am upset.

How do I work with emotions without getting caught up in the me? Maybe I know, and the answer is that the emotions are just what is going on, and I don't have to do anything *about* them. That is the self, trying to change what is. This is very challenging for me.

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Ingen
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Re: point the way

Postby Ingen » Sun Dec 11, 2011 11:57 am

You are very welcome.
How do I work with emotions without getting caught up in the me? Maybe I know, and the answer is that the emotions are just what is going on, and I don't have to do anything *about* them.
Exactly. You know the answer. Take the upset as a wake-up-call every time it happens. Instead of trying to change your emotion, just look how the upset arises and "tries" to make a *you* out of what is just fleeting emotions, triggered by outside or inside impulses. I imagine them as tentacles or a swarm of fish... You don't even have to go further than that. Just notice the story and allow it to be. It can't be otherwise anyway. If you resist it by trying to "work" on it, it will persist. Sometimes you will catch yourself, (=imaginary-self-trying-to appear-real), immediately. Sometimes first much later.
Adyashanti says something like "enlightenment is when you don't believe your thoughts anymore".

Don't these difficult emotions lose their sting when you look if you find a me they are arising to? You have to find the question or the image that is working for you. Fish is not for everyone. Maybe the question "Is it true?" does it?

Please report back how it is going!!!

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jwhooper
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Re: point the way

Postby jwhooper » Mon Dec 12, 2011 4:54 pm

It is strange for me right now, because I can regard all these emotions as just sensations, and view the me at the center as just a story, and actually watch all the suffering cease. But then it tries to come through the back door. Do I want to be detached, emotionless? What about love, caring? This me isn't giving up so easily. If it can't sell me the story of protecting me, it will try the story of protecting others, despite the actual record of it harming and ruining relationships.

So I feel guilt, and then recognize it as just another sensation, and trace it back to the me again, and see how the me is built around that urge to help, which is predicated on self and other -- the same old model that leads to more suffering. I go back to life living itself ... until the next time.

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Ingen
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Re: point the way

Postby Ingen » Mon Dec 12, 2011 8:47 pm

All I can say is that you are doing great in seeing the illusion of self at work. Catching the tooth fairy in action again and again. Old conditioning doesn't disappear, but now you (who?) aren't the victim anymore. That's something, isn't it?
Do I want to be detached, emotionless. What about love, caring?
Yeah, that sounds like a setup. Love is possible when the I isn't in the way anymore.

It would be nice if you could hang around our facebook group to discuss how it is going, and maybe help here on the forum, if you feel inspired to do so.

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jwhooper
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Re: point the way

Postby jwhooper » Mon Dec 12, 2011 9:44 pm

Is there a particular place I should hang out? I take it the One-On-One forum is not the place anymore.


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