point the way

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jwhooper
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Re: point the way

Postby jwhooper » Mon Dec 05, 2011 8:23 pm

Who is listening to what is being said?
Who is worrying about the future?
Who is waiting in traffic?
Who's energy is being saved or exhausted?
There is listening -- that sounds weird, but it seems true. Worrying is a chain reaction of thought based on the false premise of me. Actually, when I pay close attention it seems that worry is highly associated with certain physcial sensations as well. These sensations are in reality neutral, but they are labeled "bad" and then the cascade of negative thoughts begin. Nobody is waiting in traffic. There is traffic. That's all. The brain's energy is being exhausted by ceaseless chain reactions of negative thinking, all centered around the false premise of me. No energy is being "saved" as in accumulating, it simply isn't being wasted.

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Ingen
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Re: point the way

Postby Ingen » Mon Dec 05, 2011 10:51 pm

Sounds good. I am just wondering why you are not jumping up and down after so many years of searching??!
I have been at this off and on for 30 years. Intellectually I understand that there is no real self, that it is a story, like Santa Claus. That intellectual understanding is worthless. How do I feel the truth of it? How do I know it?
Do you feel the truth of it now?

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jwhooper
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Re: point the way

Postby jwhooper » Tue Dec 06, 2011 3:18 am

No. Somehow that is the problem. I don't feel it completely. I know it, but I don't feel it. I feel it more than I did, but there is still doubt, deep down.

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Ingen
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Re: point the way

Postby Ingen » Tue Dec 06, 2011 9:53 am

Somehow that is the problem. I don't feel it completely. I know it, but I don't feel it.
How do you imagine it would feel? How does it feel that the tooth fairy doesn't exist?

Literally nothing changes when you see the self as what it is - an illusion. Nothing disappears, nothing dies. Maybe it is disappointing to find out after 30 years that there is no grand finale to the seeking… Of course the response depends on your conditioning.

To let go of the illusion of control was a breaking point for me. Do you think you "have to stay" in order to keep control over things?
I feel it more than I did, but there is still doubt, deep down.
Tell me about your doubt. Get it out into the open. For heaven's sake, communicate!

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jwhooper
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Re: point the way

Postby jwhooper » Tue Dec 06, 2011 7:39 pm

How do you imagine it would feel? How does it feel that the tooth fairy doesn't exist?
I imagined that it would be really life altering, because I spend so much time in anxiety and worry. The fact that the tooth fairy doesn't exist doesn't feel like anything ... which is kind of like what I feel about me now. If this is it, it is a big letdown.
To let go of the illusion of control was a breaking point for me. Do you think you "have to stay" in order to keep control over things?
I have wanted to be rid of me for decades. The closest thing I have to a control issue is not wanting to abandon my relationships, but those have already proven to be better with the me involved, so that isn't an issue.
Tell me about your doubt. Get it out into the open. For heaven's sake, communicate!
Believe me, I'm not hiding anything from you. I just don't know why it isn't done, why I still have lingering anxiety and worry. Sure, the anxiety and worry are really just sensations that I label. When I think of it this way they go away, but then they come right back. The me is like a piece of gum that I can't get off my shoe. It's like an annoying fly that keeps coming back. The tooth fairy isn't like this. I don't fall back into thinking there is a tooth fairy -- so I assume I'm not done yet.

I feel fear and anxiety just discussing it, so the me is still there. The story of me is the source of fear and anxiety, and the alleged protector from fear and anxiety, though it does a crappy job of protection that's for sure. I don't know how to see it as just plain false, in such a way that it doesn't return.

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Ingen
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Re: point the way

Postby Ingen » Tue Dec 06, 2011 10:15 pm

Sure, the anxiety and worry are really just sensations that I label. When I think of it this way they go away, but then they come right back.


Seeing that the self is an illusion doesn't take away fear and anxiety. But that doesn't make self real. Anxiety arises, and disappears, and arises. Old conditioning. Keep looking for the I when anxiety arises. Look at the fear, without trying to resist it. Be curious about it. See how your old habits try to form an "I" out of the anxiety. Maybe at some point in the future the anxiety waves will die down, but that is not the issue right now.
The closest thing I have to a control issue is not wanting to abandon my relationships, but those have already proven to be better with the me involved, so that isn't an issue.
You mean "without the me", i suppose? That is great. Keep doing that.
I have wanted to be rid of me for decades.
You can't get rid of something that doesn't exist. You know now that the me doesn't exist. There is no more "ridding".
The story of me is the source of fear and anxiety, and the alleged protector from fear and anxiety, though it does a crappy job of protection that's for sure
The "story of me" is: always trying to make things different than they are right now, like to drive anxiety away. In reality this moment is like it is, because it cannot be different. There cannot be less anxiety. The relations between environment, genes, conditioning, the wheather and whatnot makes it what it is. You can just as well allow this moment to be how it is. Maybe fear dissolves then. (if the wheather is right).

Knowing this is relaxing. You have noticed that before.
I feel fear and anxiety just discussing it, so the me is still there.
Is that true?

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jwhooper
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Re: point the way

Postby jwhooper » Wed Dec 07, 2011 2:53 am

Oh. I thought that fear and anxiety meant that the me had to be operating on some level. I used to read a lot of Krishnamurti, and that is what he said. Well, to be more exact, he said that fear was always related to attachment on some level. I suppose he could have been wrong, and fear and anxiety might just come and go as they please for no reason, just like every other sensation or thought.

If fear and anxiety aren't signs that the me is operating ... maybe it isn't. So everything is as it is, and the me is the network of thought that does not accept this and wants to change reality. The network of thought fails miserably, and reality keeps being exactly as it is. Anxiety is as it is. Fear is as it is. I will do as you suggest and leave them alone, let them be, since thrashing about doesn't help anyway.

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Ingen
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Re: point the way

Postby Ingen » Wed Dec 07, 2011 9:16 am

Good. Put aside everything what you have read. Don't believe anything. Just look.

We are not doing therapy here. Maybe fear and anxiety can be re-conditioned away, maybe they fade away by themselves to some extent when their play of "selfing" is seen through.

Right now, focus. What is there, in direct experience, while fear arises? While fear disappears again?

Is there a you "having" and "losing" fear?

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jwhooper
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Re: point the way

Postby jwhooper » Wed Dec 07, 2011 2:47 pm

If I watch very closely, there are just sensations. The sensations come, and then they go. If a label is not attached, the "fear" thoughts never fire, and there are just neutral sensations and nothing more. Anxiety is a chain reaction, a feedback loop.

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Ingen
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Re: point the way

Postby Ingen » Wed Dec 07, 2011 7:29 pm

How do you feel now about your self? Do you still understand your absence only on an intellectual level, or do you see and experience how self is being fabricated by beliefs, again and again and again? How is your self different from the tooth fairy? Is there an entity at the core?

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jwhooper
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Re: point the way

Postby jwhooper » Wed Dec 07, 2011 8:41 pm

I see my self now as a movie. It is ultimately fiction, but it is easy to get lost in the story, just like when watching a dramatic movie. So I keep getting caught up in the story, but then I remember it is not real.

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Ingen
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Re: point the way

Postby Ingen » Wed Dec 07, 2011 9:35 pm

Still no jumping up and down? Maybe you just don't like to write many words. But it sounds like you are seeing it...I mean you see there is nothing to see!

Could I entice you to write a piece at length about the following questions? Take your time, write detailed!

1) Is there a you, at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form?
2) Explain in detail what the self is and how it works.
3) How does it feel to be liberated?
4) how would you describe it to somebody who has never heard about no you.

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jwhooper
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Re: point the way

Postby jwhooper » Thu Dec 08, 2011 3:22 pm

1) Is there a you, at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form?
No. There is a physical body, and a mind with a lot of conditioning. There are sensations that interplay with the thought networks of the mind. But there is no separate agent controlling or deciding anything, or to which anything is happening. Body, mind, awareness, that's all.
2) Explain in detail what the self is and how it works.
The self is interplay between the body, mind, and awareness. A sensation arises in awareness, it sets off a network of thought in the mind, and the chain reaction plays out, or thought gets caught in a feedback loop. The story of me is part of the network of thought, and while it can be treated as real, like a superstitious belief it is not based in reality -- it is a story, a belief. Try to find it, and it is not there. Test it, and it does not exist.
3) How does it feel to be liberated?
If this is liberation, it feels like a big letdown. I was expecting it to be a huge relief, and instead things feel basically the same. Awareness of how the self is fabricated seems to short-circuit the feedback loop, but it is embedded in so many ways that it is continually starting up. It is often quite subtle and escapes the attention for a while.
4) how would you describe it to somebody who has never heard about no you.
The way I have explained it is that I used to wonder why the stories of Santa Claus and the Tooth Fairy are taught to small children. It didn't make sense, because the maturing mind will eventually see through these stories. During this time, most children are being taught religion as well. Didn't it logically follow that, having been fooled before, these stories would ultimately cause children to question the story of their religion as well? It didn't make sense to me, because the cultures wanted children to believe in their religion. So why trick children with stories, and then want them to believe an even bigger story?

However, I had it all wrong. The stories of Santa Claus and the Tooth Fairy aren't about the existence of God, they are about the existence of self. It is our stories of ourselves, the me, that we should come to question. Does the me really exist? Santa seemed real. In the morning there were presents. The self seems real. I have my own name, I own a car, and everyone treats me as a separate entity with free will. There is collusion to make it seem real. It is exactly like Santa Claus and the Tooth Fairy. There is no Santa, and there is no you.

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Ingen
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Re: point the way

Postby Ingen » Thu Dec 08, 2011 3:39 pm

"If this is liberation, it is a big letdown".
Is it liberation? Are you "liberated" from the illusion of self?

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jwhooper
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Re: point the way

Postby jwhooper » Thu Dec 08, 2011 7:09 pm

Is it liberation? Are you "liberated" from the illusion of self?
Yes, from the illusion of self, but I am not free of the never-ending cycle of sensations tripping off a lightining quick chain reaction of thoughts centered around me, making it seem real for as long as it goes unnoticed. I think our discussion has helped me to notice a lot sooner, and also to clear up the confusion I had that fearful sensations were proof of the self in operation, when in fact they are only sensations that trip off a bunch of thoughts centered around a me.

Given what I know about the way the brain works, these networks should diminish over time if they are not given more energy through belief.

I guess what I was expecting was the cessation of the me, but it isn't really like the story of the Tooth Fairy. The Tooth fairy believe is not embedded in practically every network of thought in my brain. It was radically altered the moment belief stopped. The self is not so easy, apparently.


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