Making the leap

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richardcooper2k
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Re: Making the leap

Postby richardcooper2k » Sat Feb 23, 2013 12:22 am

Haha - i like that - " I see that being disappointed in anything is pointless, so that takes care of that. " :-)

So do you see that thoughts and feelings are likely to come up for the time being, even if they are appearing to no one ? and no one is in control of them ?

Are you satisfied you have seen through the illusion of there being a self separate from experience ?

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Indrek
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Re: Making the leap

Postby Indrek » Sat Feb 23, 2013 9:56 am

Yes and YES! :)

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richardcooper2k
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Re: Making the leap

Postby richardcooper2k » Sat Feb 23, 2013 3:52 pm

Ok Indrek,
What happens now is you answer some questions. The other guides will look at these and may ask further questions if they think it will help further clarification. There are no right or wrong answers. Its all part of the process and should give you more room to explore and clarify things for yourself. You can answer them all in one go or break them up. Just as you like and when you are ready.

1) Is there a 'me' or 'you' or 'I' , at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?
Can there ever be?
2) When you say "I", what in Experience are you referring to?
3) in Experience, is there an experiencer?
is it the body that experiences? Or is the body simply an experience?
4) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works.
5) How does it FEEL to See? describe in detail.
6) How would you describe it to somebody who has never heard about this illusion but is
curious about it?
7) What was the last bit that pushed you over or made you look? was there a specific moment
when seeing happened or was it gradual?
8) Now that you see that 'you', the first person character at the core of life, isn't, what do you
see when you see 'others'? Explain in your own words from your direct experience.

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Indrek
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Re: Making the leap

Postby Indrek » Mon Feb 25, 2013 7:12 pm

1) Is there a 'me' or 'you' or 'I' , at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?
Can there ever be?
4) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works.
Having to use words, the closest thing to describe the sensation of existence is 'eternity'.
The 'I' is a thought-form that presumes its previous existence since birth because it thinks it exists now and it is somehow attached to the eternal aspect from within the eternal aspect while also being an expression of the eternal aspect.

The idea of 'me' is a 'self'-perpetuating story the 'I' tells itself so that the eternal aspect would have a point of focus so that 'it' could operate within spacetime. This is how I feel. The self creates time by attaching itself to thoughts about what 'happened'.
The self is a collection of thoughts that are identified with - referred to as self. These are in 'opposition' with thoughts about what it is not - non-self. With having thoughts/judgements/ideas that are self and those that are referred to as non-self, a separate existence blooms.
2) When you say "I", what in Experience are you referring to?
I feel that "my" physical body is a projection of "me" in this physical reality, where there are thoughts of shape and form, yet I cannot feel that I am not anything that I am sensing. I am all that I am sensing. I am sensing itself.
3) in Experience, is there an experiencer?
There is the illusion of it, sure enough, yet when I look, I cannot really find and experiencer. The sensing, the existence that is "I" is able to receive more sensory input from the body at the moment, yet I've had enough experiences, with substances and without, to know that right now 'I' am simply not that aware of the sensory information of everything around the physical body. Wven at this very moment I cannot honestly say that I am not also the laptop that the physical body 'I' is writing on. I simply cannot say that / feel that, because I truly feel that I cannot separate my 'self' from everything that it is experiencing, no matter how hard it makes my brain hurt :)
So, no, there is no discernable experiencer at this time.

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richardcooper2k
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Re: Making the leap

Postby richardcooper2k » Tue Feb 26, 2013 12:48 am

Good stuff :-)
Keep going (but no rush)

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Indrek
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Re: Making the leap

Postby Indrek » Wed Feb 27, 2013 8:14 pm

8) Now that you see that 'you', the first person character at the core of life, isn't, what do you
see when you see 'others'? Explain in your own words from your direct experience.
I cannot help but see 'me'. The eternity that IS, which I also am, is also them. There simply cannot be anything else. For whatever reason they are just 'different aspects' of the eternity experiencing and expressing itself in the limited focus that we call physical reality. Physical bodies are manifested for us and we "enter" into them at some point. Sort of like Hoover Dam fitting itself into a garden hose.
I feel that they are also 'me', just that for the sake of having this experience, they are also 'other'.
5) How does it FEEL to See? describe in detail.
There is a background of silence and calm. It feels more real. Colors are more vibrant, there seems to be more depth to space. Time slows down. There is also the increased sensing of internal processes that want to run at a different speed - processes that want to automatically go into thoughtspace and ignore direct experience.
In the beginning stages, when it's a gradual process, it also causes an increase in anxiety as defensive mechanisms are activated. Sometimes the ego does not like it at all when I am choosing to not react to certain things.
The brain hurts as I start seeing things with the thoughts about them being not so tightly wound into the item. Seeing the thing, seeing the seeing, being the seeing, in stead of seeing an object+(thoughts about purpose/use of object) separate from the subject.
It feels funky :)
7) What was the last bit that pushed you over or made you look? was there a specific moment
when seeing happened or was it gradual?
It can happen in a moment and it can happen as a gradual process of questioning and looking. At times it somehow happens in a flash and suddenly I am seeing, while at other times it takes persistent looking and questioning.
It seems to be a matter of how easily I can actually distance myself from my automatic processes.
There are stages of seeing.
It would be absurd to say that I've seen "it all". I am certain I've yet to see some automatic processes - the anxiety is an example of unseen automatisms.
In the end it is simply about being honest with myself and feeling what I am feeling, not what I've learned to think that I am feeling; looking at what is "in front" of me, not what I've been conditioned to see.


One more to go! :)

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richardcooper2k
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Re: Making the leap

Postby richardcooper2k » Fri Mar 01, 2013 3:05 pm

Sounds like you are finding that time and space collapse/are boundless in direct experience.
Like you say : one more to go, and then we'll see if there are any further questions to look into !

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Indrek
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Re: Making the leap

Postby Indrek » Sat Mar 02, 2013 2:33 pm

6) How would you describe it to somebody who has never heard about this illusion but is
curious about it?
This was by far the hardest question, since I did not just want to regurgitate metaphors I'd read from others and I was not satisfied with my first ideas at all. In the end I came up with this:

Imagine the ocean thinking it was a fish.

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richardcooper2k
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Re: Making the leap

Postby richardcooper2k » Sun Mar 03, 2013 1:22 am

Ok Indrek, i have asked the other guides if they have any more questions for you. Lets see what happens next..... :-)

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richardcooper2k
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Re: Making the leap

Postby richardcooper2k » Sun Mar 03, 2013 12:45 pm

Some questions from another guide for you to look into:

When you say:
"I feel that "my" physical body is a projection of "me" in this physical reality, where there are thoughts of shape and form, yet I cannot feel that I am not anything that I am sensing. I am all that I am sensing. I am sensing itself."
What is the "me" that his physical body is a projection of?

And when you say:
"Sometimes the ego does not like it at all when I am choosing to not react to certain things."
Do you choose to react or not react ?

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Indrek
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Re: Making the leap

Postby Indrek » Sun Mar 03, 2013 5:53 pm

I had another awakening experience today... very.. awakening-y :)
Now I KNOW that I have seen, I no longer only think it.
When you say:
"I feel that "my" physical body is a projection of "me" in this physical reality, where there are thoughts of shape and form, yet I cannot feel that I am not anything that I am sensing. I am all that I am sensing. I am sensing itself."
What is the "me" that his physical body is a projection of?
I was going to say that I can't really say, because I cannot sense that level of existence at the moment, but then I realized that it's all holographic and it's "hiding" "under" "my" "nose" - I am existence itself. I am everything. The everything cannot be separated from the sensing of "it", so I am also the sensing. I am the subject and and the object.
And when you say:
"Sometimes the ego does not like it at all when I am choosing to not react to certain things."
Do you choose to react or not react ?
At that time I did not see that I was choosing to react. I chose to react. Now I choose not to. This does not mean that I don't, it's just that I am much more aware when my Heart is signaling to me that I have attached myself to something and I can recognize it.

Thanks for the help, Richard. Biggest hug ever!

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richardcooper2k
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Re: Making the leap

Postby richardcooper2k » Mon Mar 04, 2013 1:13 am

Thanks Indrek, it is my privilege to be guiding you. It doesn't even feel like i am doing that. More like we are investigating this together.

Yes you are existence itself, yes you are everything, yes you are sensing, sensed, subject and object, but......

Is there anyone to awaken ?

What is making choices ?

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Indrek
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Re: Making the leap

Postby Indrek » Tue Mar 05, 2013 8:41 pm

Is there anyone to awaken ?
Well, I could argue that the Physical Mind awakens to itself as the All, yet in the bigger picture, there is no awakening to take place because there is no "sleep". I am existence.
What is making choices ?
My first thought was 'the Higher Mind'. Then I saw how there really is no choice :) There is nothing to choose between! Everything is chosen and nothing is. I am not bound by choice. I simply am.

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richardcooper2k
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Re: Making the leap

Postby richardcooper2k » Wed Mar 06, 2013 12:42 am

OK, another question from another guide. I hope you are finding this as interesting as i am. It seems there is a fascination in chasing down clarity and truth. Although once something is seen part of the recognition is that it has always been the case. It seems easy to slide off into belief based on a memory of previous seeings(which is thought), mistaking that for the truth (for me anyhow)

In choice, is there a chooser? In decision, is there a decision-maker?

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Indrek
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Re: Making the leap

Postby Indrek » Wed Mar 06, 2013 11:20 pm

My mind constantly wants to go into the mode of 'I know this, I don't have to look into it anymore' - the only thing about that is that I have to notice the mind doing that. If I don't, then off to thought loop world it is!
In that sense we're on the same boat, Rich.

I, too, am thoroughly enjoying delving into these concepts and actually directly experiencing, not going into rationalization or sentimentalization.

There is no doer in the sense of the word, at all. The concept of I is having an experience that it uses the word 'do' to somehow separate that 'thing-concept' from the rest of the 'thing-concepts'. Doing something and being a doer of something are again just thoughts within the thought of the self that it has created in order to try to better understand what it thinks it is experiencing.

Can I ask for some more questions? I'm really starting to enjoy direct experiencing the answers :)


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