A Frog in Hot Water...Please Cook Until Well Done

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Lib
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Re: A Frog in Hot Water...Please Cook Until Well Done

Postby Lib » Fri Nov 25, 2011 3:12 pm

Ok, lib, can you look at the character. What is Lib? Can you see how beautiful she is? Can you see that it's fiction? Every different character sees her differently and it's all just stories, thoughts..

How does it work? What drives lib?
How is thought connected to feelings?

Let's see what you see here..[quote][/quote]

There does, from all these years working at it, seem to be more of a separation between what Lib does and taking what Lib does personally. Which seems funny, creating an "I" to judge the self! But there is a more compassionate and less judgmental attitude (arising) of Lib the character than was once the case. She is an interesting character at times. Then sometimes identity occurs with some old patterns that were less acceptable to the I and while those old feelings and judgements occur they do seem less potent, dismissed a bit easier.

This character Lib seems driven totally by impulse and conditioning. It is quite humorous to see how quickly one repeats behaviors over and over and reacts so automatically and compulsively. One behavior is learned and repeated endlessly, requiring specific intervention to change the behavior. Case in point. Lib's car was parked in the garage and she would reach up to a car pocket to get to the automatic garage door opener. Then for a period of time Lib had to park in the driveway but kept opening the garage when she would pull into the driveway. The solution seemed to be to move the opener to a different spot in the car to overcome this automatic behavior, to break the cycle of what was triggering the behavior. But hundreds of these patterns occur daily. Lib is for the most part on automatic, no different than a rat, using learned behavior from the past and repeating it endlessly. If I had realized this years ago, maybe I could have explained to my husband why I kept "forgetting" to replace the toilet paper when I had ended the roll.

All of this automatic behavior seems to occur without thought. But there are also impulsive and compulsive behavior that is a response to thought. A thought arises, out of nothing, and a response or reaction automatically happens as a result of that thought. A "decision" is made to go shopping. But not by a decision maker. The decision arose spontaneously from a thought that appeared from nowhere. Which basically proves that no one ever makes a decision. That decisions are just made.

Regarding thought and feeling. Feeling is an emotional response to a thought. So thought comes first. A thought arises and then an energy is experienced that we label as a feeling, and sub-label as the feeling of sadness, or happiness, guilt, etc.

Hmm, again. Everything must be sensation, or sensory, because that is the only way the body can take in information. There is only seeing, hearing, tasting, touching, smelling, thought, and subtle states. Okay...trying to simplify here rather than making it more complicated. I want to say everything arising is...what? Thought. Sensation. Energy. Hm. Hm. Hm....just more labels. So full stop here....

There is only "noticing" and "what is arising to be noticed." So as far as Lib or any other character, thought and the label feeling are still only "what is arising to be noticed." And there is no one to notice, just noticing happening.

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Ilona
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Re: A Frog in Hot Water...Please Cook Until Well Done

Postby Ilona » Fri Nov 25, 2011 7:50 pm

Great answer. you really looked.

now let's dig a bit deeper.
is thought not automatic too?

mind works as labelling machine. it labels feelings too. look from this angle. feelings-> thoughts-> more feelings-- feedback loop and it is all happening on automatic.

is there anything that is not going on automatic?

(when quoting past the text in between the codes. )
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Re: A Frog in Hot Water...Please Cook Until Well Done

Postby Lib » Fri Nov 25, 2011 10:41 pm

The mind works as labelling machine. it labels feelings too. look from this angle. feelings-> thoughts-> more feelings-- feedback loop and it is all happening on automatic.

is there anything that is not going on automatic
Yes, I see that. Labeling machine is a good description. A fragmenting automatic loop. And sometimes you keep repeating all the thoughts in the loop like a rat on a wheel. The wheel, from the ancient texts. And it's all automatic and self repeating by everyone everywhere...no new thoughts...until the wheel is broken.

I feel like the wheel crashed now a number of times and then patched itself back up. I'm ready to send it over a cliff.

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A Frog in Hot Water...Please Cook Until Well Done

Postby Ilona » Fri Nov 25, 2011 10:59 pm

Hahaha!
It's not the thoughts that are gonna go over the cliff. Thoughts are part of experience. Labelling goes on by itself.

Is there a thinker?
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Re: A Frog in Hot Water...Please Cook Until Well Done

Postby Lib » Sat Nov 26, 2011 4:46 pm

No there is no thinker. Just unending thoughts arising from no where unbidded. That is seen.

But...re loop. Your comment raised an interesting question. Doesn't the loop itself end? I mean thoughts just keep coming up but they are all seen through? One thought (pop) One thought (pop) Allowed to pass through like fast moving clouds? All seen as not real, even though they keep coming? Responding to practical thoughts with action (two eggs plus milk, then stir for the pancake). Doesn't the fact that you go from one thought and start fragmenting thought, emoting and reacting (looping) mean that you are taking the original thought as true? After awakening doesn't thought level off some too? No more obsessive mind streams. No more of those riding in the car and suddenly realizing that you have gone 5 miles and were totally lost in thought? More being in the moment, more thoughtless, spacious moments?

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A Frog in Hot Water...Please Cook Until Well Done

Postby Ilona » Sat Nov 26, 2011 5:23 pm

It would be great if all thought loops would end in one hit, wouldn't it. But, no.. All conditioning is still there, only there is no more attachment to it. So all beliefs come up, one by one to be inspected and released.
So real work starts after.
Seeing through illusion is the end of seeing yourself as separate. But it's the beginning of liberation. Not the end. It's the first realisation, not the last.

How is it going today, lib?
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Re: A Frog in Hot Water...Please Cook Until Well Done

Postby Lib » Sat Nov 26, 2011 7:30 pm

Ilona,
I love doing this...it is very productive. Wherever it goes, it is useful, helpful and much appreciated.
I will persevere. Thank you for staying the course with me.


I do have a question. At one point (several times actually) all of this was believed to have been seen through. The experience continued for many months. There were questions about what was happening, but no one really to talk to about it. It happened with a teacher once but there was no follow-up as if to say "you are on your own here, and the momentum of mind continues for awhile."

The daily experience was that thought seemed to decrease overall. It was noticed that the body would say something that didn't seem "awakened' and my also-seeking-boyfriend would then be quick to point out "so we think we are enlightened, here" but there was no reaction to that because it was seen that "non-awakened" speech still came out of this character's mouth. That was seen. There were other aspects to feeling like it was over, such as the end of seeking but many of the details are forgotten. But life overall was better. There was acceptance of this cancer and just doing day to day what needed to be done. At times when the pain was very great there was identification with his fear but when that happens I am able to "stop" and see that it was just thought/feeling arising and it isn't carried forward in this looping.

However, maybe due to many hours at home with caregiving and on the internet, I started looking at this conspiracy/economic disaster sites. I know that economic collapses and changing empires come and go and that whatever arises in this world is just appearance but I got (get) very caught up in forwarding sensational emails to others, feeling like I needed to buy gold, etc. I am quite addicted to this. (And happy that this dialogue brings me back and takes me away from the hours spent at this.) And I think how can this character be doing this and still have seen through the illusion? A reminder (usually from my boyfriend) and yes, this really means nothing, just more appearance and then two days later, back to sending emails. Is it possible to "see" and "not see" ?

I read about the article on your site about the man with 17 experiences between the first awakening and liberation. And I'm thinking well, "14 more to go." And yet, there is no doubt that some things are seen through enough to function better with what is arising daily in this household. I'm really trying to figure out where this character is in all of this. Has it really been seen through but not completely? Seen through but not accepted? Not seen through? I know Tony Parsons (who I traveled to England to spend 6 months with) went many, many years between awakening and liberation. Rupert Spira said for him it appeared, relatively, to be a process.

So now after three experiences of seeing things quite clearly, there is attachment to a belief that every time it is seen clearly it will subsumed by the mind again at some point. So...what to do?

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Re: A Frog in Hot Water...Please Cook Until Well Done

Postby Ilona » Sat Nov 26, 2011 9:50 pm

all life is a process of LIFE-ing. and the story is the one about liberation. every character's experience/ unfolding is unique. what to do? live. is there anything else?

if there is seeking, it seems that there is something to find out, to resolve. when question get's answered, seeking drops, it becomes clear.

imagine mind as a computer operating system. if it's full of programs it runs slower and many of them conflict between each other, fight and interrupt. imagine, you clean the system and it runs smooth at the top performance.

every belief inside is like a program. the key is to de program all that has been put in there by others, so that which is unique, authentic, natural is found and maintained. yes, maya is clever, mind get's distracted, fooled, loose focus, drift away to fantasy land so on. this is the part for the taming of the mind. cleaning up, releasing ideals and ideas, challenging everything, rebelling against every limitation is finding your own process and sticking to it, until it runs it's course.
yes, it is possible to see it and not recognise it. everyone is free, only not everyone has seen it. and even if you see it, mind does not want to accept it as truth. so it's about surrender, giving up the fight and taking a honest look at what really is, not what mind wants to see.
and it's all just thoughts anyway...
Truth realized will set you free.
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Re: A Frog in Hot Water...Please Cook Until Well Done

Postby Lib » Sat Nov 26, 2011 11:09 pm

so it's about surrender, giving up the fight and taking a honest look at what really is, not what mind wants to see.
Every time this one stops, really stops, there is a seeing of what really is...in that moment of thoughtless awareness. In the thoughtless silence you realize there is only ever what is arising to your sensory apparatus. Arising to be noticed, by no one. It's not automatic, not spontaneous, but it is seen as all there is in that moment that a choice is made to look.
Is that enough, Ilona, to keep choosing to stop, until perhaps the seeing is automatic?

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Re: A Frog in Hot Water...Please Cook Until Well Done

Postby Lib » Sat Nov 26, 2011 11:24 pm

this is the part for the taming of the mind. cleaning up, releasing ideals and ideas, challenging everything, rebelling against every limitation is finding your own process and sticking to it, until it runs it's course.
Is this dialoging the taming of the mind process? Good to continue this process. I know I see this when I stop, as described above. "Stopping" is my one road back to clarity, which I take often. I know that doubts, confusion, questions are also thoughts arising. Much is known. Little is automatic.

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A Frog in Hot Water...Please Cook Until Well Done

Postby Ilona » Sun Nov 27, 2011 12:56 am

This dialoging is nothing other as mind trying to resolve itself.

You say little is automatic, what isn't?
Is there a driver at times when it's not automatic. Seems so is not a good answer. Look right there and tell what you see.
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Re: A Frog in Hot Water...Please Cook Until Well Done

Postby Lib » Sun Nov 27, 2011 3:26 am

Ah, I was referring to the seeing of *this* as not being automatic, or perhaps continuous is a better word. Seeing through the illusion is not continuous. Rather it seems to require effort. At least stopping to notice seems to require effort. Then all of a sudden you are "missing in action." The mind is off in a story until you are reminded to look again.

Yes, everything else is definitely arising automatically with no volition at all. All motions, experiences of the body arise in response to internal or external triggers with no one controlling the responses or the triggers. All sensory experiences, which is all that can be perceived also arise automatically or spontaneously with no one at the switch, no one in control anywhere.

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A Frog in Hot Water...Please Cook Until Well Done

Postby Ilona » Sun Nov 27, 2011 10:30 am

Look again.
Everything is happening by itself. Including looking and seeing through illusion. Notice it.
There is no effort, only thought ABOUT it.

Notice that there's no one looking, but looking happening and seeing happening-- all same thing.

Is there a you that stops to look? How does that work?
Truth realized will set you free.
http://ilonaciunaite.com/book

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Re: A Frog in Hot Water...Please Cook Until Well Done

Postby Lib » Sun Nov 27, 2011 2:17 pm

Look again.
Everything is happening by itself. Including looking and seeing through illusion. Notice it.
There is no effort, only thought ABOUT it.

Notice that there's no one looking, but looking happening and seeing happening-- all same thing.
Yes, I see what you are saying. A definite ah ha. Stopping to see through the illusion and not stopping to see through the illusion are all the same, just thought arising in all it's forms and permutations. Very tricky. And making an effort to stop and see through the illusion is just "efforting" arising. And blanking out is just "blanking out" arising, to no one. Just noticing and not noticing the gyrations of the mind arising.

Applying this to my "addiction" to reading bad economic news on the computer. It is noticed that there is a daily movement to the computer, an arising sense of urgency to get to the computer. So there is a sense of urgency arising and the action of repetitiveness arising that I have labeled "addiction" and claimed the experience. And of course once the news is accessed there are many thoughts and emotions that arise to be claimed by an "I'.

Working through this is taking me into some serious spaciousness.
Is there a you that stops to look? How does that work
No there is no one stopping to look, or to effort. Stopping is happening. Looking is happening. Effort is just happening. It has to be that way since there is no one there to effort. The word effort is just a label for the experience. And an "I" was created to claim the experience of effort. There is noticing or not noticing but no one there to notice or not notice.

Stopping to be with this spaciousness is occurring.....

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A Frog in Hot Water...Please Cook Until Well Done

Postby Ilona » Sun Nov 27, 2011 2:55 pm

Ahaha! Right here.

Sooo, is there a separate entity me to which life happens?
Was there ever?
How does it feel to recognise that?
Truth realized will set you free.
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