Would like help to investigate deeper

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Re: Would like help to investigate deeper

Postby s-p-a-c-e » Thu Dec 20, 2012 12:10 pm

Hey Pete,
Thank you John :).
Well, at the moment I'm just trying to deal with some stuff so I'll walk through it and share:
There is some pain in the body and anxiety about something going on at work. Lots of unworthiness comes up when put in certain situations with others and I'm the center of attention.

Looking at direct experience right now is hard as the mind wants to push this away, fix it, obtain relief.
So... sensations are happening, images come up and then a tightening sensation. A sense of me... image of body seen/felt.. looking for sense of awareness, can't find a fixed point of awareness, there is just awareness happening. Looking at pain in the lower back and notice that pain in the forehead goes away, look at pain in the forehead and notice that the pain in lower back goes away. :)

As I'm looking at all this, the more calm the body becomes. The problem at work seems to fade away. If I bring the situation at work to mind, it can become very real again and thought says "I've got a problem and I need to fix it!". Instead of fighting the situation I go into the body sensations and kind of 'give myself up' to the perceived attack of others looking at / judging me. It becomes like an intense soup of images and sensations. So experiencing continues...

It seems like "I'm" not there yet because these thoughts/beliefs keep coming up. What if there is no me in any shape or form, who is there to get anything? So unworthiness sensation comes up, but there is no me that IS unworthy. Hmm.. how could anything BE unworthy... don't even know what that means.
Anyway, thanks for listening.
Pete, what I'm going to share with you is outside the scope of our inquiry, so for the moment, let's pretend identification happens and there's a self called "Pete". :)

As you point out, the "attack" of being judged is perceived and this is a reflection of your relationship with yourself. It has nothing to do with others, but they are showing you how you treat yourself. Now, that is a fiction, but if there is a truth in it for you, use it.

Everyone seems to have a core issue of this nature: not good enough, not successful enough, a failure, not existing etc, etc. It's an aspect of the social-conditioning, is a fiction, but still, believed in fictions do seem real. In our inquiry, we're seeing that there never was anyone to be "unworthy".

Now, you can look at this sense of unworthiness directly eye to eye. When it next comes up, rather than push it away and judge it (see how this works!), do the opposite and metaphorically throw your arms around it and send it as much love as you can bear - and sit with the sensation receiving love and breathe gently through it.

You can do this at anytime.

Essentially, this "unworthiness" reaction is reacting not against the judgement of others, but that it is exposing how you feel about yourself to yourself. And most of the time, we've spent years trying to get away from the idea that we're unworthy or a failure - no matter how much it was drummed into us as kids - so the last thing we want is to have this pushed in front of our own faces.

Again, this is all the fiction of the self, some of it laid down in conditioning.

SO...GETTING BACK TO OUR INQUIRY :)

Notice what the "unworthiness" is made up of in direct experience - probably a mix of feelings/emotions and thoughts/belief-thoughts.

Look to see that feelings and thoughts show up to no-one. If you sense pockets of "Pete" in there, nod, acknowledge it and see the fiction of it in a gentle way.

Conditioning continues after seeing through the separate self which is why we have Facebook groups exploring these aspects to work through.

That's all for now, but speak soon.

With warmest wishes,
John
"The more he looked inside, the more Piglet wasn't there." - A.A.Milne

Author, The Faun's Apprentice - see on Amazon:
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Fauns-Apprenti ... B01AR2B63U

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Re: Would like help to investigate deeper

Postby Pete » Thu Dec 20, 2012 1:07 pm

Hi John,
As you point out, the "attack" of being judged is perceived and this is a reflection of your relationship with yourself. It has nothing to do with others, but they are showing you how you treat yourself. Now, that is a fiction, but if there is a truth in it for you, use it.
So 'your relationship' is a thought and 'with yourself' is a thought- still all thoughts/energy interacting right? The 'belief' (whatever that is) is what gives it the intensity.
Everyone seems to have a core issue of this nature: not good enough, not successful enough, a failure, not existing etc, etc. It's an aspect of the social-conditioning, is a fiction, but still, believed in fictions do seem real. In our inquiry, we're seeing that there never was anyone to be "unworthy".
Thank you. :)
Now, you can look at this sense of unworthiness directly eye to eye. When it next comes up, rather than push it away and judge it (see how this works!), do the opposite and metaphorically throw your arms around it and send it as much love as you can bear - and sit with the sensation receiving love and breathe gently through it.
Thanks, I will try this. I have a 'big' meeting today and will try it in 'action' :).
Again, this is all the fiction of the self, some of it laid down in conditioning.
Right, all believed in stories.
Notice what the "unworthiness" is made up of in direct experience - probably a mix of feelings/emotions and thoughts/belief-thoughts.
Look to see that feelings and thoughts show up to no-one. If you sense pockets of "Pete" in there, nod, acknowledge it and see the fiction of it in a gentle way.
Yes, this is what I continued to do last night.. each time this would come up I'd look at it- images (others and myself, the situation, etc), sensations (tightness, constriction,etc), appearing to no-one. I also brought up the question a few times "what if there REALLY is no 'me' in any shape or form?" I can't find any reference point for the me.

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Re: Would like help to investigate deeper

Postby s-p-a-c-e » Thu Dec 20, 2012 2:02 pm

Hi Pete,
Hi John,
As you point out, the "attack" of being judged is perceived and this is a reflection of your relationship with yourself. It has nothing to do with others, but they are showing you how you treat yourself. Now, that is a fiction, but if there is a truth in it for you, use it.
So 'your relationship' is a thought and 'with yourself' is a thought- still all thoughts/energy interacting right? The 'belief' (whatever that is) is what gives it the intensity.
It's a fiction in which there's a lot of self-referential aspects e.g. self, parent, child...etc. All fiction, stories laid down in conditioning, some stories became generalised-thoughts (beliefs) etc, etc.
Notice what the "unworthiness" is made up of in direct experience - probably a mix of feelings/emotions and thoughts/belief-thoughts.
Look to see that feelings and thoughts show up to no-one. If you sense pockets of "Pete" in there, nod, acknowledge it and see the fiction of it in a gentle way.
Yes, this is what I continued to do last night.. each time this would come up I'd look at it- images (others and myself, the situation, etc), sensations (tightness, constriction,etc), appearing to no-one. I also brought up the question a few times "what if there REALLY is no 'me' in any shape or form?" I can't find any reference point for the me.
Cool. Yes, just awareness, magnificent awareness.

Have fun Pete! :)

Speak soon,
John
"The more he looked inside, the more Piglet wasn't there." - A.A.Milne

Author, The Faun's Apprentice - see on Amazon:
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Fauns-Apprenti ... B01AR2B63U

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Re: Would like help to investigate deeper

Postby Pete » Fri Dec 21, 2012 4:41 am

Thanks John,
I'm starting to sense more clearly that I've been looking for a description, a thing. All just IS period, no need to go any further.
I still haven't been noticing direct experience unless I stop and look but that is recurring through the day. I also like to look for a point of reference that the knowing / awareness is seeing FROM. Can't find it but it is MY knowing.... and just there I was knowing a thought/sensation of 'me' appear. This is just experience happening. Like you said, there is no experience or experiencer because there are no objects that can be found.
This is very simple and obvious, but when I heard people saying that before I didn't see how it could be.
Even as I type this, thoughts pop up that say 'I haven't found anything', [which is true :)], 'I still think I'm a me'- and yet there is as always experiencing of these thoughts.
So how is this happening? I/thought has not done anything, things just happen/appear. There seems to be a desire to see that is bringing this about though.
Right now there is clarity, or I guess that means that I am aware of my Self. But yet, most of today I was not. I feel somehow this will become deeper and more automatic...maybe, right? The mind doesn't like that..constriction felt :).
I will continue to notice direct experience whenever I remember to.

Thanks for all your help.

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Re: Would like help to investigate deeper

Postby s-p-a-c-e » Fri Dec 21, 2012 12:25 pm

Hi Pete,
Thanks John,
I'm starting to sense more clearly that I've been looking for a description, a thing. All just IS period, no need to go any further.
All just IS period. :) And further can happen. :)
I still haven't been noticing direct experience unless I stop and look but that is recurring through the day. I also like to look for a point of reference that the knowing / awareness is seeing FROM. Can't find it but it is MY knowing.... and just there I was knowing a thought/sensation of 'me' appear. This is just experience happening. Like you said, there is no experience or experiencer because there are no objects that can be found.
In awareness, they rise and fall away, rise and fall away, back to emptiness, form and formlessness in an infinite dance. And that includes light and dark - life.
This is very simple and obvious, but when I heard people saying that before I didn't see how it could be.
haha It is isn't it. So simple as to be over-looked by most trying to solve something which is simply here and now - and the seeing is it too. Lovely.
Even as I type this, thoughts pop up that say 'I haven't found anything', [which is true :)], 'I still think I'm a me'- and yet there is as always experiencing of these thoughts.
So how is this happening? I/thought has not done anything, things just happen/appear. There seems to be a desire to see that is bringing this about though.
Thoughts continue to appear in response to life - they are seen as not yours, only thoughts showing up. No ownership. Clouds might appear and drift by in awareness. There's no ownership, neither with thoughts. The body/mind is an intelligent organism continuing to do it's thing, but just not "Pete" as was thought to be.

When the separate self "Pete" is seen through, what is left?
Right now there is clarity, or I guess that means that I am aware of my Self. But yet, most of today I was not. I feel somehow this will become deeper and more automatic...maybe, right? The mind doesn't like that..constriction felt :).
Whether the attention is hooked by a thought/emotion or in awareness it's the same difference, and the experience will be different. The hooks un-hook quicker, there's likely less judgement - no judge, no victim.

Experiencing life, of life, aware of life.
I will continue to notice direct experience whenever I remember to.

Thanks for all your help.
It's a pleasure Pete.

From moment to moment, just take a minute, and start with a nice comfortable sigh breath, and settle in the awareness.

In direct experience, notice any layers of description and swipe it away. :) For example, say just the experience of sitting and the pressure of the seat, notice any element of naming "seat", "backside", "chair", "sitting" and look to go beyond to where there are no names for things.

Have a play...

Speak soon,
John
"The more he looked inside, the more Piglet wasn't there." - A.A.Milne

Author, The Faun's Apprentice - see on Amazon:
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Fauns-Apprenti ... B01AR2B63U

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Re: Would like help to investigate deeper

Postby Pete » Sat Dec 22, 2012 5:08 am

Yes John, I love to settle into the awareness and go beyond where there are no names for things. Had a very good experience with that today. I sort of want to stay in that experience but I know nothing is permanent. The attention can flow back and forth between being hooked and unhooked. I seem to unhook easier when I have time so I hope it becomes easier to do in any situation. I guess this is an evolving experience and we'll see where it leads.

Talk to you soon.

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Re: Would like help to investigate deeper

Postby s-p-a-c-e » Sat Dec 22, 2012 2:51 pm

Hi Pete,
Yes John, I love to settle into the awareness and go beyond where there are no names for things. Had a very good experience with that today. I sort of want to stay in that experience but I know nothing is permanent. The attention can flow back and forth between being hooked and unhooked. I seem to unhook easier when I have time so I hope it becomes easier to do in any situation. I guess this is an evolving experience and we'll see where it leads.
Wonderful - this is the dance of attention and awareness. As time goes on, the realisation that all this shows up to no-one becomes more and more the case and settles into a new balance, if you like.

So this "hooking" and "unhooking" is not a "problem", just what happens. The key here is to see beyond any shadow of a doubt, that the game is over for "Pete". :) And what pours in to fill that apparent absence is LIFE and the awareness and being of life.

In many respects, seeing that there is no "I" is the beginning - as you say - of a new experiencing of life.

On a scale of 0-100, with 100 being there is definitely a separate self called "Pete" running the show, the thinker and doer of my life, and 0 being that the notion of a separate self called "Pete" running the show is a complete fiction and that has been seen fully and completely - what number shows up on that scale?

WIth warm wishes,
John
"The more he looked inside, the more Piglet wasn't there." - A.A.Milne

Author, The Faun's Apprentice - see on Amazon:
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Fauns-Apprenti ... B01AR2B63U

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Re: Would like help to investigate deeper

Postby Pete » Sat Dec 22, 2012 3:43 pm

Hi John,
So this "hooking" and "unhooking" is not a "problem", just what happens. The key here is to see beyond any shadow of a doubt, that the game is over for "Pete". :) And what pours in to fill that apparent absence is LIFE and the awareness and being of life.
I think I know what you mean. So hooking into thought can happen and there is still a full awareness and being of life experienced at the same time? I'm seeing two different states right now with a definite preference for the unhooked state.
On a scale of 0-100, with 100 being there is definitely a separate self called "Pete" running the show, the thinker and doer of my life, and 0 being that the notion of a separate self called "Pete" running the show is a complete fiction and that has been seen fully and completely - what number shows up on that scale?
Well, I smile at the thought of "a separate self called Pete running the show", it sounds silly if that's any indication. If I look for the doer I don't find it, so 0, HOWEVER, 'it' keeps appearing and attention gets lost in it until "I" stop and look for it again. So there is experience of the doer where its feels like 100.
Thought is kind of nervous to say 0 because it doesn't know what's next!
Deep down I know it is 0... but it feels like a struggle sometimes (just this morning actually), thought says if no one is there why does it feel like it???

Talk soon,
Pete

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Re: Would like help to investigate deeper

Postby s-p-a-c-e » Sat Dec 22, 2012 3:53 pm

Hi Pete,
Hi John,
So this "hooking" and "unhooking" is not a "problem", just what happens. The key here is to see beyond any shadow of a doubt, that the game is over for "Pete". :) And what pours in to fill that apparent absence is LIFE and the awareness and being of life.
I think I know what you mean. So hooking into thought can happen and there is still a full awareness and being of life experienced at the same time? I'm seeing two different states right now with a definite preference for the unhooked state.
On a scale of 0-100, with 100 being there is definitely a separate self called "Pete" running the show, the thinker and doer of my life, and 0 being that the notion of a separate self called "Pete" running the show is a complete fiction and that has been seen fully and completely - what number shows up on that scale?
Well, I smile at the thought of "a separate self called Pete running the show", it sounds silly if that's any indication. If I look for the doer I don't find it, so 0, HOWEVER, 'it' keeps appearing and attention gets lost in it until "I" stop and look for it again. So there is experience of the doer where its feels like 100.
Thought is kind of nervous to say 0 because it doesn't know what's next!
Deep down I know it is 0... but it feels like a struggle sometimes (just this morning actually), thought says if no one is there why does it feel like it???

Talk soon,
Pete
It feels like it because it feels like it. :)

For god knows how many years, a feeling likely coalesced based upon early experiences, and even though that feeling will have shifted all the time, it's one we have called "home", "me", "I". :)

And so the familiarity - which is basic repetition over time - means that it feels like it. :) And that's ok.

We're just seeing the illusion and smiling - "hey, look, it really feels like it - and it's not. Well I never!" LOL :)

You see? :) A bit like a rainbow. It really, really, looks like it's a separate entity hanging in the air when it's really a happening based upon changing relationships - light, rain, eyes.

Best wishes,
John
"The more he looked inside, the more Piglet wasn't there." - A.A.Milne

Author, The Faun's Apprentice - see on Amazon:
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Fauns-Apprenti ... B01AR2B63U

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Re: Would like help to investigate deeper

Postby Pete » Sun Dec 23, 2012 10:24 pm

Thanks John.
We're just seeing the illusion and smiling - "hey, look, it really feels like it - and it's not. Well I never!" LOL :)
Funny, "I never" :)! Yep, I'd like the seeing to be deeper in experience and the smiling more often. It seems to be moving in that direction :).
You see? :) A bit like a rainbow. It really, really, looks like it's a separate entity hanging in the air when it's really a happening based upon changing relationships - light, rain, eyes.
I see.
Yes, it really, really, looks and feels like it. A quick way for me to see right now is to notice when there seems to be a me and ask 'from WHERE is this being seen?'. There is no individual point of reference from where the seeing is taking place. And as I read on another thread, if there is no individual point of reference, who is looking for the individual point of reference?? What comes to me now is that looking is looking :).
Went to an old folks home today; where there would have been more sadness and separating in the past, there was more connection and being in the moment. Same with looking at old pictures of family when they were younger, now just enjoying the experience... even if a sense of loss comes up I'd just look at that.

Talk soon,
Pete

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Re: Would like help to investigate deeper

Postby s-p-a-c-e » Mon Dec 24, 2012 1:21 am

Hi Pete,
You see? :) A bit like a rainbow. It really, really, looks like it's a separate entity hanging in the air when it's really a happening based upon changing relationships - light, rain, eyes.
I see.
Yes, it really, really, looks and feels like it. A quick way for me to see right now is to notice when there seems to be a me and ask 'from WHERE is this being seen?'. There is no individual point of reference from where the seeing is taking place. And as I read on another thread, if there is no individual point of reference, who is looking for the individual point of reference?? What comes to me now is that looking is looking :).
You may find the "I" subtly hides. Sometimes as the seer. As you mention, the "I" always has a sense of location with it, which when explored cannot be found. And we're left with a sense of self and a belief.

Seeing how that sensation and belief are empty of substance, the fixation is released.

It's good to look at the apparent location, and to see the emptiness of the apparent "seer", and also to see and feel what's left when there is no location to awareness.

When the lid/label is lifted, nothing is found.
Went to an old folks home today; where there would have been more sadness and separating in the past, there was more connection and being in the moment. Same with looking at old pictures of family when they were younger, now just enjoying the experience... even if a sense of loss comes up I'd just look at that.
Good. All this happens naturally and see the emptiness of any "I" to whom this is happening.

We're just finding any residual "I" and shaking it loose. :)

With best wishes,
John

p.s. if things get busy over Xmas, don't worry about posting daily. Mine will likely be a bit spaced out too. :)
"The more he looked inside, the more Piglet wasn't there." - A.A.Milne

Author, The Faun's Apprentice - see on Amazon:
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Fauns-Apprenti ... B01AR2B63U

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Re: Would like help to investigate deeper

Postby Pete » Mon Dec 24, 2012 3:07 am

Thanks John, will keep looking and reporting experience...:). Went to church tonight... there has been a lot of strong "I" thoughts in the past connected to the stories of religion, felt a twinge just there calling it 'stories'.
Anyway, my 15 and 17 year old girls want to watch a Christmas movie tonight so I won't pass that up! :).
Have a great holiday, talk to you soon.
Pete

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Re: Would like help to investigate deeper

Postby s-p-a-c-e » Mon Dec 24, 2012 12:58 pm

Thanks John, will keep looking and reporting experience...:). Went to church tonight... there has been a lot of strong "I" thoughts in the past connected to the stories of religion, felt a twinge just there calling it 'stories'.
Anyway, my 15 and 17 year old girls want to watch a Christmas movie tonight so I won't pass that up! :).
Have a great holiday, talk to you soon.
Pete
Stories are wonderful and sometimes contains great truths. It's the story of who and what we are that we're looking to see if it's empty, because the story says: I am real and true and have substance.

And then you look at the evidence. Ahem. :)

HAVE FUN OVER XMAS!!! :D

Warm wishes,
John
"The more he looked inside, the more Piglet wasn't there." - A.A.Milne

Author, The Faun's Apprentice - see on Amazon:
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Fauns-Apprenti ... B01AR2B63U

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Re: Would like help to investigate deeper

Postby Pete » Mon Dec 24, 2012 3:54 pm

Yes, thoughts/belief of a story of me still comes up. Its funny, you keep returning to the same point over and over and the thought that came up is "he doesn't think I'm there yet" :o! Wow, I get a clear sense of me that I can look at with that! :)
Thank you. I know that this is a manufactured story of me and it still can feel very real until I stop and look at it.
This morning when I woke up was looking at sensations and sounds to see if I could locate where they are with eyes closed... amazing that they cannot be located.

Have a great xmas as well!

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Re: Would like help to investigate deeper

Postby s-p-a-c-e » Mon Dec 24, 2012 5:02 pm

Hi Pete,
Yes, thoughts/belief of a story of me still comes up. Its funny, you keep returning to the same point over and over and the thought that came up is "he doesn't think I'm there yet" :o! Wow, I get a clear sense of me that I can look at with that! :)
Thank you. I know that this is a manufactured story of me and it still can feel very real until I stop and look at it.
This morning when I woke up was looking at sensations and sounds to see if I could locate where they are with eyes closed... amazing that they cannot be located.

Have a great xmas as well!
LOL! :) The "I" story is a sneaky critter. haha Likes to find places to hide. Well, it would, if it existed. ;)

So great - let the world come to you, see what is, see how stories are empty, and enjoy what's left - everything and nothing. :D

Best wishes,
John
"The more he looked inside, the more Piglet wasn't there." - A.A.Milne

Author, The Faun's Apprentice - see on Amazon:
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Fauns-Apprenti ... B01AR2B63U


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