Please help me see through the illusion

This is a read-only part of the forum. All threads where seeing happens are stored here and come from this forum, the Facebook guiding area and various LU blogs. The complete list, sorted by guide, contains all links. The archives include threads of those that came to LU already seeing as well.
User avatar
Sanjay
Posts: 22
Joined: Tue Oct 16, 2012 1:13 pm

Re: Please help me see through the illusion

Postby Sanjay » Wed Oct 31, 2012 4:47 pm

Dear Cosmik, feel trapped in a hall of mirrors : (

I'll respond to your post tomorrow.

User avatar
cosmiK
Posts: 1013
Joined: Mon Aug 27, 2012 9:15 pm

Re: Please help me see through the illusion

Postby cosmiK » Wed Oct 31, 2012 5:05 pm

Take your time Sanjay. Respond fully after you've Looked Deeply.

Whatever experience, including the one you just described... Is it happening to anyone/anybody? Stare deeply right at any assumption, as well as the assumption that there is some thing staring.

User avatar
Sanjay
Posts: 22
Joined: Tue Oct 16, 2012 1:13 pm

Re: Please help me see through the illusion

Postby Sanjay » Thu Nov 01, 2012 9:47 am

Dear Cosmik,

Good news ! I guess I've seen through the illusion, or to be more realistic, the seeing is happening : )

Yesterday after several attempts, I got pretty frustrated with my inability to make sense out of all this stuff. So I sent a post to you stating the following :
Dear Cosmik, feel trapped in a hall of mirrors : (

I'll respond to your post tomorrow.
Immediately after posting the above message, I came across the following post by Pathfinder
Do you find it interesting that this "I" that you've spent your entire life believing in is so hard to find? To pin down?
I read this sentence and I was all set to read the subsequent paragraphs. But a feeling at the back of my mind told me that there is something quite potent in that message. So I decided to read it once more.

This message hit me hard. It sounded very true. So I said to myself, yes I do find the "I" hard to find or pin down. It felt really strange to me that I really did have difficulty finding it. It didn't make sense. So the question arose, if I am so much convinced that I really do exist, then why do I have so much difficulty in locating it.

So I immediately decided to look for the "I" once again.

Am "I" in the body? Where exactly am I in the body?

Am "I" in the thoughts? Out of the many thoughts that are appearing & disappearing which one of them thoughts is exactly me? How can I be one of the thoughts? And they also keep on arising one after another unpredictably.

Am "I" present as and in my feelings? Feelings are not there all the time. They are there for a while and they pass and a little later some other feeling takes over. How can I be a feeling that is present at one time and not present at another?

Am "I" the attention? Attention happens whether I am paying attention or not. It is not my attention.

And so the answer is yes, there's no "Me" anywhere. I looked at all the familiar places and I couldn't really point a finger at it and say this is "Me". I could only assume it is here or there, etc. Really strange. To think, all my life has been going on like this. Really very strange this thing called life.

What happened after that was, I sensed the thinking had stopped, a great sense of excitement, and an almost painful happiness arose. A little later thinking resumed, in every way normal as usual but without an I at its core. There were the usual I and Me thoughts popping up here and there, but they were not sticky, they were just flowing along just like all the other thoughts were flowing. Everything else was happening as per usual and yet something has changed. I see now that's the answer to the help I had come asking Liberation Unleashed - The meaning of seeing through the illusion. The hall of mirrors is still intact but the context of the reflection has gone the way of the dinosaurs and so the reflection has disappeared with it.

Today morning I woke up with the sense of living the same old lie, the same old story, but the sense of knowing, of having seen what's essential is present. I guess I just have to let it unfold in real life as it will.

I thank you Cosmik, right from the bottom of my heart. I cannot express with words the gratitude I feel towards you for being such a nice and friendly guide and for sharing all those wonderful insights with me. They all make perfect sense to me now : )

And I also thank Pathfinder for indirectly causing the shift to occur.

User avatar
cosmiK
Posts: 1013
Joined: Mon Aug 27, 2012 9:15 pm

Re: Please help me see through the illusion

Postby cosmiK » Thu Nov 01, 2012 6:23 pm

Sanjay,

there is great clarity there :) Let us finish this process. I have a few clarifying questions first:
And so the answer is yes, there's no "Me" anywhere. I looked at all the familiar places and I couldn't really point a finger at it and say this is "Me". I could only assume it is here or there, etc. Really strange. To think, all my life has been going on like this. Really very strange this thing called life.
Yes... there is no such thing anywhere.
Was there EVER a "you" looking for a "you"?
What happened after that was, I sensed the thinking had stopped, a great sense of excitement, and an almost painful happiness arose. A little later thinking resumed, in every way normal as usual but without an I at its core. There were the usual I and Me thoughts popping up here and there, but they were not sticky, they were just flowing along just like all the other thoughts were flowing. Everything else was happening as per usual and yet something has changed. I see now that's the answer to the help I had come asking Liberation Unleashed - The meaning of seeing through the illusion. The hall of mirrors is still intact but the context of the reflection has gone the way of the dinosaurs and so the reflection has disappeared with it.
Yes Sanjay, thoughts can arise, sensations can arise, feelings can arise, emotions can arise, dinosaurs can arise... anything may arise... yet they are in complete freedom... they arise to noone... they come from noone... they arise to no-thing, and they come from no-thing...

is there a center from which anything arises?
is there a center from which anything comes from?
Today morning I woke up with the sense of living the same old lie, the same old story, but the sense of knowing, of having seen what's essential is present. I guess I just have to let it unfold in real life as it will.
anything may arise, including stories, a sense of living a lie, emotions, thoughts, knowing, etc etc.... yet does it ever matter? does it ever arise to anyone? does it ever effect anyone? does it EVER have any power over You? Is there a You that can be harmed or bothered?


in Experience, is there anything personal?
in what arises, is anything ever Yours?


is there anything missing in this moment?

--


So Sanjay, are there any more doubts and any further investigation regarding the illusion of separation/self?

with Love.

User avatar
Sanjay
Posts: 22
Joined: Tue Oct 16, 2012 1:13 pm

Re: Please help me see through the illusion

Postby Sanjay » Fri Nov 02, 2012 5:56 pm

Dear Cosmik,

Sanjay,

There is great clarity there :) Let us finish this process. I have a few clarifying questions first:
And so the answer is yes, there's no "Me" anywhere. I looked at all the familiar places and I couldn't really point a finger at it and say this is "Me". I could only assume it is here or there, etc. Really strange. To think, all my life has been going on like this. Really very strange this thing called life.
Yes... there is no such thing anywhere.
Was there EVER a "you" looking for a "you"?
I can't believe I'm actually able to say this. But its very true. There never was a "Me" looking for a "Me". And you know what, it made me chuckle when I typed it. If I'm not able to find my self right now within this present moment, then thankfully, it means I can never find myself in any other present moment. There never ever was a "Me" - even when I completely believed otherwise.
What happened after that was, I sensed the thinking had stopped, a great sense of excitement, and an almost painful happiness arose. A little later thinking resumed, in every way normal as usual but without an I at its core. There were the usual I and Me thoughts popping up here and there, but they were not sticky, they were just flowing along just like all the other thoughts were flowing. Everything else was happening as per usual and yet something has changed. I see now that's the answer to the help I had come asking Liberation Unleashed - The meaning of seeing through the illusion. The hall of mirrors is still intact but the context of the reflection has gone the way of the dinosaurs and so the reflection has disappeared with it.
Yes Sanjay, thoughts can arise, sensations can arise, feelings can arise, emotions can arise, dinosaurs can arise... anything may arise... yet they are in complete freedom... they arise to noone... they come from noone... they arise to no-thing, and they come from no-thing...

is there a center from which anything arises?
is there a center from which anything comes from?
Yes, experiences arise from nowhere to no one and to no thing. Everything exists, only I am not. The center was always only an assumption.
Today morning I woke up with the sense of living the same old lie, the same old story, but the sense of knowing, of having seen what's essential is present. I guess I just have to let it unfold in real life as it will.
anything may arise, including stories, a sense of living a lie, emotions, thoughts, knowing, etc etc.... yet does it ever matter? does it ever arise to anyone? does it ever effect anyone? does it EVER have any power over You? Is there a You that can be harmed or bothered?

in Experience, is there anything personal?
in what arises, is anything ever Yours?

is there anything missing in this moment?

So Sanjay, are there any more doubts and any further investigation regarding the illusion of separation/self?

with Love.
Yes they keep arising in the same way they have always arisen before. But they don't sweep me off my feet. Experience simply happens and there's no person to claim any of it as mine. Every now and then, the "I" does seem to come back through the back door. But it disappears by itself as soon as it is noticed. Frankly I'm not sure whether there is anything missing in this moment. There is presence, existence.

I have just one more question to ask you Cosmik. Supposing I need some more clarification later on after this thread is closed, would it be possible for me to get in touch with you ? Thanks for everything : )

User avatar
cosmiK
Posts: 1013
Joined: Mon Aug 27, 2012 9:15 pm

Re: Please help me see through the illusion

Postby cosmiK » Fri Nov 02, 2012 6:36 pm

Sanjay,

Awesome :)

If there are no more doubts, are you ready for the final questions?

These questions are reviewed by other guides, and if clarification questions are required, I will post them. If not you will be confirmed :) upon confirmation you will have access to our post-gate Facebook groups where you can discuss/inquire/investigate and play further, and I will be able to interact with you in those groups as well... So I'm not going anywhere, and you'll have access to many more amazing people as well.

And yes, "I" thoughts may come and go, but its just a thought habit, it means nothing, it's just a thought.

So, ready for the final Qs?

User avatar
Sanjay
Posts: 22
Joined: Tue Oct 16, 2012 1:13 pm

Re: Please help me see through the illusion

Postby Sanjay » Fri Nov 02, 2012 6:58 pm

It's good to know that we can continue to discuss about these things.

I'm ready for the final Qs Cosmik.

User avatar
cosmiK
Posts: 1013
Joined: Mon Aug 27, 2012 9:15 pm

Re: Please help me see through the illusion

Postby cosmiK » Fri Nov 02, 2012 8:00 pm

Here ya go Sanjay,

Please answer in detail, each question, honestly and earnestly, and refer to direct experience. If the questions requires analysis and speculation, start with direct experience, here and now first, then let thoughts flow.


1) Is there a 'me' or 'you' or 'I' , at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever? Will there ever be?



1.5) When you say "I", what in Experience are you referring to?



2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works.



3) How does it FEEL to see this? describe in detail.



4) How would you describe it to somebody who has never heard about this illusion but is curious about it.



5) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look? was there a specific moment when seeing happened or was it gradual? what exactly happened?



6) describe the difference before seeing, at the moment of seeing, and after seeing? describe the key difference?



7) in what ways has thing changed your life? what impact will this have on your life?



8) what if i told you LU was a persuasion cult and we have just got you to believe that "there is no self". How would you respond?



9) do you have any comments about my guiding, what you feel was effective, and what was not so effective, and why?

User avatar
Sanjay
Posts: 22
Joined: Tue Oct 16, 2012 1:13 pm

Re: Please help me see through the illusion

Postby Sanjay » Sun Nov 04, 2012 7:07 am

Dear Cosmik,
1) Is there a 'me' or 'you' or 'I' , at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever? Will there ever be?
I looked into every nook and cranny and could only find the idea of "Me, I couldn't locate the "Me" itself". So it's quite obvious that if I cannot find it now, I can never ever find it in the now. But It does appear to show up every now and then and it does grab the attention. But it melts down and disappears when it's seen / noticed.
1.5) When you say "I", what in Experience are you referring to?
I was referring to thoughts, ideas, feelings, awareness and stories about me. Now it is seen as a social need. A necessary evil.
2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works.
Its a social thing this "I". Useful for relating with others in society. Whenever we speak to people, there is a need for us to use our name frequently. The words I/Me are used very generously, repetitively, habitually. And we innocently grab the idea and believe the idea - that it is what / who "I" am. And everyone are sailing in the same boat too and so we all help each other to solidify the idea, the illusion of the self. All our goals, dreams, beliefs and fears are built on this foundation that exists only as a belief, as an idea in the mind. Once the illusion is seen through, the content of thoughts, what they point to, what those thoughts mean, all these preoccupations, daydreams and fears are more easily recognized as imagined mind stuff.
3) How does it FEEL to see this? describe in detail.
First and foremost, its relief I feel. And everything in experience feels intimate. Because the focus is on reality everything is more vivid, present and alive. Desires and fears are understood to be mental stuffs. Relating with people, performing everyday chores is somehow not boring.
4) How would you describe it to somebody who has never heard about this illusion but is curious about it.
The illusion is more like a belief, a viewpoint or a perspective. It reminds me of the following picture.

Image

If you happen to show it to a few people, some of them may see a young girl and some may see an old lady. Once the mind is convinced that the picture is that of a young girl, it is very difficult to spot the old lady or vice versa. Put the two people with opposing views together and watch the confusion it evokes. Its real fun to watch. But once you manage to spot it, it becomes very easy to see it from then on. Similarly there's this spinning picture of a ballerina.

Image

Is she spinning clockwise or anti-clockwise? It depends on your conviction. The self too is more like an illusion that's based on a mental viewpoint or a perspective. If you are convinced that there is a self then life is viewed from a mental and time based perspective. life is lived with the conviction that there is a person who has certain characteristics, goals, hopes and fears, who can strive, seek and enjoy or suffer from it. Once the illusion is see through the mental curtain sort of falls away and present reality shines forth just as it is.
5) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look? was there a specific moment when seeing happened or was it gradual? what exactly happened?
In the beginning I was convinced that I was awareness. For me this was the most stickiest idea of all. I was in fact holding onto that thought/feeling/idea that I am awareness. You made me understand that if I am not X (my thoughts) then it doesn't mean I am Y (awareness). This was a very keen thing on your part. It really set the ball rolling. You also made me understand that there is only experience. From this I understood then that there was no such thing as awareness in my experience other than the idea of it. Something clicked at that point itself because the "I" had lost the only thing it was holding onto. Later when I came across Pathfinder's post everything just fell in place. But my identification with awareness was so very strong, I couldn't have managed to see this if you hadn't made me understand that awareness is simply a word and not a part of my experience.
6) describe the difference before seeing, at the moment of seeing, and after seeing? describe the key difference?
Everything continues to be the same as before with one difference - the hero of the story is missing : ) So the story itself is gradually loosing its meaning, its grip. That's the key difference.
7) in what ways has thing changed your life? what impact will this have on your life?
Experiences are not taken too personally and therefore they take place without interference, involvement or judgements. So life can be expected to be more authentic, integrated and rooted in reality.
8) what if i told you LU was a persuasion cult and we have just got you to believe that "there is no self". How would you respond?
Please keep up the good work. I sincerely hope you can persuade a lot more people to join the persuasion cult.
9) do you have any comments about my guiding, what you feel was effective, and what was not so effective, and why?
When I came to Liberation Unleashed I arrived with vague ideas about what to expect. And I was also completely identified with the words sense of me, awareness, consciousness, etc. You very easily and quickly spotted what exactly I was identifying with / was holding onto. And it took just two of your posts to completely wipe out that identification off my head. I have explained this in my answer to question 5. So its pretty obvious that you are very passionate about providing guidance to people like me. You and everyone here at Liberation Unleashed are doing this work out of compassion without expecting anything in return. One cannot ask for more. All that I can say is I am extremely grateful. I couldn't have seen this without your help and guidance. Thank you Cosmik, thank you Liberation Unleashed : )

With love,
Sanjay

User avatar
cosmiK
Posts: 1013
Joined: Mon Aug 27, 2012 9:15 pm

Re: Please help me see through the illusion

Postby cosmiK » Sun Nov 04, 2012 7:18 am

Sanjay :)

Awesome. This will be out for review by other guides and I will contact you soon.

Keep looking in to your absence :)

User avatar
cosmiK
Posts: 1013
Joined: Mon Aug 27, 2012 9:15 pm

Re: Please help me see through the illusion

Postby cosmiK » Mon Nov 05, 2012 1:40 am

Good to go,

private messaged you the Facebook details :)

What a pleasure Sanjay,

much Love.

User avatar
Sanjay
Posts: 22
Joined: Tue Oct 16, 2012 1:13 pm

Re: Please help me see through the illusion

Postby Sanjay » Mon Nov 05, 2012 8:01 am

Keep looking in to your absence :)
That brought up a smile : )
Good to go,

private messaged you the Facebook details :)

What a pleasure Sanjay,

much Love.
The feeling is mutual Cosmik. I don't have a Facebook account yet. Need to create one. I'll add you to my account as soon as I create it.


Return to “ARCHIVES”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Google [Bot] and 2 guests