Please help me see through the illusion

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cosmiK
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Re: Please help me see through the illusion

Postby cosmiK » Sun Oct 21, 2012 10:44 pm

This came as a surprise to me because many books I have read state "You are that", "That art thou", etc, etc. That's the reason why I was trying to conclude "if I'm not X... then I must be Y".
We are looking for the Truth... it will not be found in books, in words, in thoughts... it will not even be found in my words. My words seek to show you that your thoughts are just thoughts. My words seek to point you to the Truth that is always there, always present. You are used to going in to the thought-stream, in to the thinking-process, to find Truth, yet it cannot be... why?... because they are just thoughts. This you must understand, and by that I mean not accept what I just said, but observe thoughts and see that they are just thoughts, nothing more. The voice in your head is not "I", it is just thoughts.
That's the reason why I was trying to conclude "if I'm not X... then I must be Y". But here you are indirectly telling me "I am neither this nor that". I didn't expected this at all. Which means to say "I am neither my thought/feelings nor am I the one that is looking at them"
ahhh... so, more thoughts arise to say "I am neither my thought/feelings nor am I the one that is looking at them". is it clear that it is just a thought?

Thoughts are always claiming experience as "me" or "mine". A toddler claims a toy 'his', and a seeker claims "awareness" "pure consciousness" "that" "spirit" as "me" or "mine". They are just thoughts. This you must see for yourself.
Do you think its ok for me to spend a day or two to let this sink in Cosmik? I feel I need to spend some time with this new perspective.
Do what you feel is best for you my friend. I am here when you want to look at Truth, and SEE.

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Sanjay
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Re: Please help me see through the illusion

Postby Sanjay » Mon Oct 22, 2012 8:38 am

There's great happiness here for calling me your friend and I'm at the same time thankful and grateful for providing all this guidance.

I have created the following list of what thinking is to me.
Living out of thinking is dull, lifeless, repetitive, habit causing, unreal, second hand knowledge in comparison to direct experience where things are directly experienced and known, always in the past or future, judgmental, always comparing everything with memory, always labeling and referencing everything to an I center. The I center is just a thought which itself points only to other thoughts, sensations and images and to nothing that's really real out there.

I am looking into my direct experience a lot more than before because I find it more enjoyable now. Living from direct experience is real, concrete, vibrant, alive, firsthand experience and therefore undeniable, always in the moment, in the now, its a seamless flow of sights, sounds, sensations, smells, tastes and thoughts. Even if a thought of a Me arises in this, its story doesn't seem to have much of a hold on the mind because the experiential reality is so much more real in comparison that the Me thought / sensation seems to loose much of its solidity.

Am I doing ok Cosmik. Please correct me if I am going astray.

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cosmiK
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Re: Please help me see through the illusion

Postby cosmiK » Mon Oct 22, 2012 9:12 pm

Sanjay,
I have created the following list of what thinking is to me.
Living out of thinking is dull, lifeless, repetitive, habit causing, unreal, second hand knowledge in comparison to direct experience where things are directly experienced and known, always in the past or future, judgmental, always comparing everything with memory, always labeling and referencing everything to an I center. The I center is just a thought which itself points only to other thoughts, sensations and images and to nothing that's really real out there.
It's nice to reflect on thoughts, and your reflections about it are insightful and I'm sure will be helpful, but what is more important is to see this Truth directly. So.. what is creating the list and reflecting on thoughts?
I am looking into my direct experience a lot more than before because I find it more enjoyable now.
What is looking in to direct experience? What is finding it more enjoyable?
. Living from direct experience is real, concrete, vibrant, alive, firsthand experience and therefore undeniable, always in the moment, in the now,
What is living from direct experience? Is there something separate that lives or is there just that flow?
Even if a thought of a Me arises in this, its story doesn't seem to have much of a hold on the mind because the experiential reality is so much more real in comparison that the Me thought / sensation seems to loose much of its solidity.
Good reflection Sanjay, but there still seems to be an "I" center here as reflected in your writing. Look right at it.

Is there a separate self anywhere in any form?

Is there an "inner" and "outer"? if so, where is this dividing line?

Is there any separation whatsoever? If so, where is it? LOOK DEEPLY AT IT.

Is there anything experiencing?
Am I doing ok Cosmik. Please correct me if I am going astray.
To check if you are going in the correct direction, just ask yourself, have you seen through the illusion of the separate self? Is there a separate self? Is there a YOU? Is there an "I" / "me" or "mine"?

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Re: Please help me see through the illusion

Postby cosmiK » Thu Oct 25, 2012 3:55 am

Everything alright Sanjay? Just checking in.

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Re: Please help me see through the illusion

Postby Sanjay » Thu Oct 25, 2012 7:42 am

Everything alright Sanjay? Just checking in.
Thanks a ton for checking the status with me. My parents had come over during the weekend and I was kind of busy taking them out and such. They left today morning so here I am : )

I have continue the inquiry whenever I could manage to find the time. So following are some of the things I have noticed. I'm not sure whether these are getting me anywhere. Yes its seems I'm using the "I" word quite liberally knowing quite well that its a necessary evil for sensible communication. Full stop : )

When I relax and take notice of the present experience, initially there seems to be a me doing the breathing, typing, moving the attention around. And suddenly the experience somehow takes over and somehow I am the breathing itself, the typing itself. I don't know how else to put it.
Wow substituting the word awareness with experience has made a very huge difference. It seems very difficult for me to do a 180 degree turn and look at Awareness. It also feels hard to pin it down or notice it. But the word experience sounds mundane and intimate. Makes me feel one with whatever it is that I am experiencing.
Sanjay... words are words... regardless of any words... there is an experiencing that is always occurring... like the experiencing of this sentence being read and read and read and read. can you see that as you read this sentence (now read it very slowly) that there is no separate reader or experiencer or seer, but just an experience of reading the sentence? if whatever experience arises + though pops up to say "i feel the experiencer", can you see that this is just another experience... so basically... there is NO experience-er apart from the Experience. Carry this simple question throughout your whole day:
- is there an experience-er apart from the Experience? or is that also just Experience...so.... really... there is ONLY this Experiencing.
Within the experiencing there is no separate sanjay, there's just an experience of experiencing for the sake of experiencing itself. Is that so because experiencing by default carries with it a SEAL OF REALITY STAMPED ON IT which the thought story lacks ? And during that time if a thought pops up and says "I am experiencing so and so", these thoughts lack the pull to engage in a story. Its only when there is a moment of unawareness thoughts take over and the attention gets caught in a story until its seen that its just a thought story after all.

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cosmiK
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Re: Please help me see through the illusion

Postby cosmiK » Thu Oct 25, 2012 7:57 am

When I relax and take notice of the present experience,
Is there a You relaxing? Check these subtle mechanics that we assume to be done by a self.
initially there seems to be a me doing the breathing, typing, moving the attention around. And suddenly the experience somehow takes over and somehow I am the breathing itself, the typing itself. I don't know how else to put it
At these times Sanjay, don't settle for a "seems". Is there a separate self or I there? This is where you need to look deep and see through any assumptions. There is an activity, then there is a thought that says "I am doing this" or "it seems like there is a me doing that". Thoughts always come after.
Within the experiencing there is no separate sanjay, there's just an experience of experiencing for the sake of experiencing itself. Is that so because experiencing by default carries with it a SEAL OF REALITY STAMPED ON IT which the thought story lacks ? And during that time if a thought pops up and says "I am experiencing so and so", these thoughts lack the pull to engage in a story. Its only when there is a moment of unawareness thoughts take over and the attention gets caught in a story until its seen that its just a thought story after all.
So who or what notices experiencing? Does anyone or anything get caught up In a story?

Also I gave you several pointers and questions previously. Please answer those fully (not just mentally, only from thorough investigation and Looking) when time permits.

Look forward to the next

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Sanjay
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Re: Please help me see through the illusion

Postby Sanjay » Fri Oct 26, 2012 6:43 am

Dear Cosmik, it was quite a busy day at work yesterday. I am having my hands full today as well. Please let me get back to you tomorrow with the answers. I'll stick to the inquiry whenever I get free time.

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Re: Please help me see through the illusion

Postby cosmiK » Fri Oct 26, 2012 7:04 am

Sanjay. No worries. Look forward to your report based on all those inquiries when time permits. Hope you are well.

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Re: Please help me see through the illusion

Postby Sanjay » Sun Oct 28, 2012 6:42 am

I'm doing fine Cosmik. And I'm sorry for the delayed response. Its just that my hands were quite full work wise during the past three days. Thank you for your concern : )

I have been looking into my experience a lot. But as I had mentioned to you in my very first post, I have never being very bright (quick at grasping things). It usually takes quite a long time for any new idea to sink into my head. Its a very tough nut : )
When I relax and take notice of the present experience,
Is there a You relaxing? Check these subtle mechanics that we assume to be done by a self.
As a response to previous thoughts, a decision arose to relax and take notice of the present experience and the body mind followed suit. There was a sense of "I" doubtlessly present which claimed that I was the one who had decided to relax. At the same time there was also a sensing of the really real present experience that was happening without a "ME" at the steering controls. Seeing this enabled me to look through the sense of "I" although it was very much present. Being able to look through / look past the sense of "I" is a very freeing experience and it is happening a lot more frequently now.
initially there seems to be a me doing the breathing, typing, moving the attention around. And suddenly the experience somehow takes over and somehow I am the breathing itself, the typing itself. I don't know how else to put it
At these times Sanjay, don't settle for a "seems". Is there a separate self or I there? This is where you need to look deep and see through any assumptions. There is an activity, then there is a thought that says "I am doing this" or "it seems like there is a me doing that". Thoughts always come after.
Well, normally its feels like "I" am present somewhere inside the head looking at the breathing, or typing, walking, etc. But when the experience take over there is only breathing, typing, seeing, walking going on. There is somehow a merging with the experience. Is there a separate self or an "I" there? The commentary is still going on in the background and the "I / ME" words do come up just like before. If the attention is not kept vigilant it falls in the identification trap again. But the frequency is reducing steadily.

Yes, thoughts always come after the experience has passed. I guess it does that for the sake of saving the memory in its "I did it" filing cabinet. But it feels like a unnecessary overlay / commentary about present happenings. When I look past the sense of "I", the live commentary seems to loose its grip on the mind and life seems to just flow from moment to moment.
Within the experiencing there is no separate sanjay, there's just an experience of experiencing for the sake of experiencing itself. Is that so because experiencing by default carries with it a SEAL OF REALITY

STAMPED ON IT which the thought story lacks ? And during that time if a thought pops up and says "I am experiencing so and so", these thoughts lack the pull to engage in a story. Its only when there is a moment of unawareness thoughts take over and the attention gets caught in a story until its seen that its just a thought story after all.
So who or what notices experiencing? Does anyone or anything get caught up In a story?
Noticing, looking, hearing, feeling, etc are present experiences happening all the time. The "I" thought appears every now and then and disappears just like every other thoughts that appear and disappear. But this particular thought (the "I" thought) is quite persistent and reappears often only because the social language makes it so.
Also I gave you several pointers and questions previously. Please answer those fully (not just mentally, only from thorough investigation and Looking) when time permits.
Thanks a lot for those pointers Cosmik ! They were very helpful. I'll answer your questions in a separate post.

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Re: Please help me see through the illusion

Postby Sanjay » Mon Oct 29, 2012 6:19 am


I have created the following list of what thinking is to me.

Living out of thinking is dull, lifeless, repetitive, habit causing, unreal, second hand knowledge in comparison to direct experience where things are directly experienced and known, always in the past or future, judgmental, always comparing everything with memory, always labeling and referencing everything to an I center. The I center is just a thought which itself points only to other thoughts, sensations and images and to nothing that's really real out there.
It's nice to reflect on thoughts, and your reflections about it are insightful and I'm sure will be helpful, but what is more important is to see this Truth directly. So.. what is creating the list and reflecting on thoughts?
The answer to this question is obvious. No one created the list or reflected on the thoughts. A desire to create the list arose in the moment, movements happened, the list got typed. They were simply happenings out of life itself just like the wind blows and the leaves fall. But there's great opposition arising when I try to state it in that manner. It very much feels like it is I who sat down and thought about how to put my experience of thinking and direct experience into words. The decision arose after considering several other ways of stating the same thing. Though I am absolutely convinced that there is no "ME" in here and things are simply happening the mind keeps saying but this but that : (
I am looking into my direct experience a lot more than before because I find it more enjoyable now.
What is looking in to direct experience? What is finding it more enjoyable?
Looking happens all the time regardless of whether I am there or not. Enjoyable sensations arose out of direct experiencing and thoughts were there to take a snap shot of the experience by stating "I find it more enjoyable now".

Living from direct experience is real, concrete, vibrant, alive, firsthand experience and therefore undeniable, always in the moment, in the now,
What is living from direct experience? Is there something separate that lives or is there just that flow?
Direct experience is a happening just like seeing is a happening. There is no one doing it. Even if an experiencer seemingly appears within experience, the appearance is also an experience. So there is no experiencer apart from the experience in the moment. Experience is all there is.

Even if a thought of a Me arises in this, its story doesn't seem to have much of a hold on the mind because the experiential reality is so much more real in comparison that the Me thought / sensation seems to loose much of its solidity.
Good reflection Sanjay, but there still seems to be an "I" center here as reflected in your writing. Look right at it.

Is there a separate self anywhere in any form?

Is there an "inner" and "outer"? if so, where is this dividing line?

Is there any separation whatsoever? If so, where is it? LOOK DEEPLY AT IT.

Is there anything experiencing?
No there is no separate self anywhere. But knowing this hasn't caused the sense of separation to disappear.

The distinction between inner and outer are made in thoughts. Space may appear to be divided but the fact remains. Nothing can touch and nothing can divide space ever.

The "I" thought is the cause of all appearances of separation. But the "I" thought is just a fiction, a thought and so it cannot really cause any separation unless its believed to be true.

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Re: Please help me see through the illusion

Postby Sanjay » Mon Oct 29, 2012 7:51 am

So then let this be your exercise. Pick a few objects. Look at them.
Is there a separate seer?
Is there a separate experience-er?
or are you just separating vision and some other sensation... perhaps the sensation of feeling ('body' / 'head')?
find this 'sense of separation' you speak of... drop the label "sense of separation" and see if there is ANY separation in Experience?

Do you see that no matter what you say about seeing, there is no ACTUAL separation apart from your conceptualization of it?
It is clear to me that there is no separation between experience and seeing. The experience of seeing cannot be separated from the seeing. But as per the exercise you have suggested me to do, I am not able to apply the above understanding towards everyday objects. So I need a clarification from you regarding your question about whether there is an actual separation apart from my conceptualization of it.

When I look at objects such as the computer screen, the flower pot, the tables and the chairs, they are all actually separate with respect to each other. And this body being one more separate object among these other obviously separate objects. So I am not able to understand how they are in reality actually not separate and only appear to be separate because of the concept I have about them. Could you please explain this a bit more clearly.
But the conviction that I do not exist is still not 100%. How do I get to the 100%. Do I continue to keep looking, feeling, hearing into direct experience until the conviction that there is no ME in direct experience is hammered in permanently? How do I experience this from a gut level?
How do you get to where you already are Sanjay?
WHO is going WHERE?
Looking is happening, seeing is happening, feeling is happening, hearing is happening, convictions of this and that are happening... all without a "me" :)
Just Simply See Sanjay... there is no Sanjay in any of this :)
After the "I" is seen through, seeing, hearing, smelling, convictions, thoughts and actions continue to happen just like it is happening right now and life goes on from moment to moment. There's no "ME" and everything else goes on as usual, Is that all there is to it? Thanks a lot for the clarifications Cosmik.

There was no need to get rid of the Santa belief. The belief fell away quite naturally. No struggle with it at all. But with the "ME" idea that's not the case. There's great resistance to the very idea that there's no "ME". The "ME" feels as though it is a contracted uneasy sensation in the body and mind. But the contracted feeling is just a feeling. So a feeling can't be "ME". So where is this resistance coming from? There's no one doing the resisting. The resistance is also happening all by itself and thoughts claim it as "I am feeling great resistance".

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Re: Please help me see through the illusion

Postby Sanjay » Mon Oct 29, 2012 7:57 am

I had to split my replies into three separate posts because the question and responses were from three different posts. I hope I haven't made it cumbersome for you to go through. Sorry about that.

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Re: Please help me see through the illusion

Postby cosmiK » Mon Oct 29, 2012 5:59 pm

I'm on the road now so can't respond to all your responses, but I did read them... Here is my response. I'm not sure if I will reply to all of what you said before when I get home or not, I will decide then. However... From what I gather this is what came up:

///// As a fun way to look at things: In reference to separate objects. When you watch tv Sanjay, or play a 3d video game... Are there separate objects? Now what if you played a 3d game called Life which was not just visual but also included 4 other sensations and thoughts... Now are there separate objects? Perception is tricky, yet it is very simple. Anyway, that is a little fun to ponder, yet, this Awakening is priority. /////

Thanks for your responses to all questions. Great clarity and analysis. Yet, in order for seeing to occur, for that shift, for that awakening you have to take it deeper. Direct, Simple.

You are still identified with thinking. Is the voice in head You? Is it Sanjay?

You are also noticing a fluctuation between SEEing and identification. That is because you are identified with this as a gradual process, like some linear thing, or some puzzle to solve. This may be a tendency for you as you seem very analytical and logical, which is fine, but this Seeing is much simpler than all of that. The fact that you are experiencing more tension and resistance clearly shows you that habitual tendencies are being challenged. Look deeply Sanjay. Instead of thinking about this as some puzzle to solve, instead of trying to figure something out... Just look deeply to find this self. You are taking the long way and avoiding this simple Truth. You say you are a hard nut to crack...fuck the cracking... Just look right at the core. It is Empty. There is no You. Don't go in circles. Look in the middle. It is Empty. If you follow the line of the circle, it will take you in circles, forever. Samsara. Step inside, look behind... empty.

Thoughts arise. Is that I/me?

Sensations shift and arise... Is that You?

There is a sense of being... Is that self?

Look behind experience, be direct... Is there a You?

Drop labels... Look behind... Anything? Anyone?

Face this directly.

Ask yourself... Is this a pet project you want to drag along... Or is Awakening your priority?
Is freedom an afterthought, or is the most important thing?
Be honest.

With Love.

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Re: Please help me see through the illusion

Postby Sanjay » Tue Oct 30, 2012 9:24 am

Thanks for your responses to all questions. Great clarity and analysis. Yet, in order for seeing to occur, for that shift, for that awakening you have to take it deeper. Direct, Simple.
Actually you are spending your time for my benefit expecting nothing in return. I can never ask for more. There's gratitude felt here.

I am spending all of my free time looking and inquiring. My eagerness is in my way I guess.
You are still identified with thinking. Is the voice in head You? Is it Sanjay?
Yes identification with thinking is happening. The voice in the head says it is ME, and it spins stories based on ME and takes the attention for a ride. And suddenly awareness dawns and the identification with the voice is questioned - is this voice ME. It is once again seen that thinking is a happening and therefore the identification is dropped. There is awareness of a subtle efforting here during the questioning process which conjures up a sense of ME.
You are also noticing a fluctuation between SEEing and identification. That is because you are identified with this as a gradual process, like some linear thing, or some puzzle to solve. This may be a tendency for you as you seem very analytical and logical, which is fine, but this Seeing is much simpler than all of that. The fact that you are experiencing more tension and resistance clearly shows you that habitual tendencies are being challenged.
I'm glad to know that the tension and resistance are arising only because habitual tendencies are being challenged.
Look deeply Sanjay. Instead of thinking about this as some puzzle to solve, instead of trying to figure something out... Just look deeply to find this self. You are taking the long way and avoiding this simple Truth. You say you are a hard nut to crack...fuck the cracking... Just look right at the core. It is Empty. There is no You. Don't go in circles. Look in the middle. It is Empty. If you follow the line of the circle, it will take you in circles, forever. Samsara. Step inside, look behind... empty.
Ok so I'm looking directly into my present experience. There's absolutely no ME in seeing, hearing, sensing, etc. Thoughts and feeling alone are responsible for causing this story of ME appear to be ME. When this illusion is questioned its understood there is no ME in them. The apparent questioner is also questioned and dropped as not ME. The good thing is I only need to put effort into this initially. But later the questioning process takes over automatically and more frequently all by itself without requiring any effort.
Thoughts arise. Is that I/me?

Sensations shift and arise... Is that You?

There is a sense of being... Is that self?

Look behind experience, be direct... Is there a You?

Drop labels... Look behind... Anything? Anyone?

Face this directly.
No, there's definitely no ME present in any of the above mentioned experiences.


Ask yourself... Is this a pet project you want to drag along... Or is Awakening your priority?
Is freedom an afterthought, or is the most important thing?
Be honest.
Awakening is my highest priority. In fact it has been the most important thing to me for a long time. Existence willing, I would like to end it now. I do not want to drag this along. Thank you Cosmik.

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Re: Please help me see through the illusion

Postby cosmiK » Tue Oct 30, 2012 8:54 pm

Hey Sanjay,
Yes identification with thinking is happening. The voice in the head says it is ME, and it spins stories based on ME and takes the attention for a ride. And suddenly awareness dawns and the identification with the voice is questioned - is this voice ME. It is once again seen that thinking is a happening and therefore the identification is dropped. There is awareness of a subtle efforting here during the questioning process which conjures up a sense of ME.
So yes, thoughts arise about all sorts of things including many with "me..." and "I am...". Those thoughts will continue to arise, and they arise to noone, and there is noone thinking them.

Regardless of 'identification' or 'awareness dawning'... look deeply and find if there is EVER a self.

Who or what drops identification?

Deconstruct this 'efforting'.. is it perhaps some sensations and a thought "efforting"? If there anyone efforting?

Even if a 'sense of me' arises, it arises just as any other arising arises in this, here & now. No matter what is going on, arising, felt, there is no center, which anything comes from, or which anything arises to. CHECK. is there a center? or is the assumption of a center also another self-referencing loop, just like a "I/me" is. CHECK and LOOK Deeply.
Ok so I'm looking directly into my present experience. There's absolutely no ME in seeing, hearing, sensing, etc. Thoughts and feeling alone are responsible for causing this story of ME appear to be ME. When this illusion is questioned its understood there is no ME in them. The apparent questioner is also questioned and dropped as not ME. The good thing is I only need to put effort into this initially. But later the questioning process takes over automatically and more frequently all by itself without requiring any effort.
Is there a ME looking for a non-existent ME? :)

Even if the illusion is not questioned, is there ever a ME?

Was there ever an "I" that efforts? Is there an "I" efforting now?

It seems you assume that there was an "I" doing it before... and now it's becoming automatic...
is it possible that all of it was always just happening, but there were some thoughts describe it differently. LOOK Deeply in to this.
Is there EVER a self?
Is there EVER a doer?
Is there EVER a thinker?

Even when it was assumed that the questioning process was effortful before, and automatic now... was there ever any such thing? Is it possible that it was just happening as it is right here, right now. Look Deeply in to this possibility.
No, there's definitely no ME present in any of the above mentioned experiences.
Is there anyone or anything that notices the lack of a ME?

Is there a ME that is doing all of this looking?

Is there a Sanjay that is going through this process?
Awakening is my highest priority. In fact it has been the most important thing to me for a long time. Existence willing, I would like to end it now. I do not want to drag this along. Thank you Cosmik.
Is this anything more than a story Sanjay?

LOOK Deeply... whose priority? important for who for a long time? Who would like what to end? Is there anything to end? Who does not want to drag this along.

LOOK Deeply... use all of this. Is there anyone or anything going through this Liberation Unleashed process? Is there anyone looking deeply?

with Love.


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