Can you help "me", Ilona?

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Re: Can you help "me", Ilona?

Postby Ilona » Fri Nov 02, 2012 9:04 am

Good stuff Riktam.

Lets look closer at what is here. What is real? As in what does not disappear when you no longer believe in it.
Can you describe what is experienced?
Is there an experiencer?

Write what you see, what is already obvious.
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Re: Can you help "me", Ilona?

Postby Riktam » Fri Nov 02, 2012 2:43 pm

Beloved Ilona,

Another blissful day, yesterday. Many feelings like ease, peace, joy, gratefulness, oneness, compassion, tearing...

What does not disappear when I no longer believe in it?
In a plain investigation, solid things (and liquid and gaseous also) does not disappear.
There is a feeling that in a deeper investigation even things can be questioned, but I don't think your question intends to lead so philosophically. Would this smell of a rose be here if no nose is here to smell it? I don't know.
So, lets go simple.
Thoughts, including the idea of "me" are very volatile and they don't resist to a non-involved looking. Maybe feelings are the same. So for the above criteria they must not be real.
Without thoughts everything becomes quiet and peaceful, even a thunder.

If the experience is described then it loses its purity, it becomes a thought. It's not real, present, anymore.

There is a consciousness that witnesses experiences and doesn't get involved with them. Otherwise experiences wouldn't exist. That is the experiencer.

Love.
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Re: Can you help "me", Ilona?

Postby Ilona » Fri Nov 02, 2012 3:06 pm

cool, so consciousness is the experiencer, is that consciousness you?

can you see that experience is still experience, described or not. only if attention goes to description it takes away the pure seeing of what is and all experience goes into the background, while thoughts about it are noticed in the foreground. but description of experience is also experience. it is not separate. it's only when it is taken seriously and believed it becomes heavy and produces more and more thoughts about what is. thoughts are meant to be noticed. not believed.

what do you see there?
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Re: Can you help "me", Ilona?

Postby Riktam » Fri Nov 02, 2012 4:12 pm

cool, so consciousness is the experiencer, is that consciousness you?
Ilona, I experienced the sense of pure consciousness several times and I told you before.
All spiritual teachers tell every day that I'm pure consciousness.
But one has to be very careful to declare that statement because we are talking about the most sacred truth, the mystery of life itself, I cannot say it with levity, I have to see definitively that state without any shade of doubts before declaring it.
can you see that experience is still experience, described or not. only if attention goes to description it takes away the pure seeing of what is and all experience goes into the background, while thoughts about it are noticed in the foreground.
That's exactly what I meant.
but description of experience is also experience. it is not separate.
I've not considered it before. As a matter of fact, I was fighting the drifting of the pure experiencing. Since last Wednesday when I do mentally the exercise I can see also descriptions from the outside and I think this finding will help me a lot.
it's only when it is taken seriously and believed it becomes heavy and produces more and more thoughts about what is. thoughts are meant to be noticed. not believed.
what do you see there?
Yes, you're right. I see what you are pointing to and maybe i have to persist practicing this noticing to bring that to my daily life, to absorb it.
Anything else can help me?

Thank you.
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Re: Can you help "me", Ilona?

Postby Ilona » Fri Nov 02, 2012 4:32 pm

Is there a you that needs help? :)
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Re: Can you help "me", Ilona?

Postby Riktam » Fri Nov 02, 2012 6:42 pm

Ilona, when I write in English sometimes there's more formality than I really want.

The question that originally appeared in my mind before writing was:

- What else?

- What comes next?

Love.
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Re: Can you help "me", Ilona?

Postby Ilona » Fri Nov 02, 2012 7:00 pm

:) nothing else. Just this.
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Re: Can you help "me", Ilona?

Postby Riktam » Sat Nov 03, 2012 12:25 am

I'm confused.
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Re: Can you help "me", Ilona?

Postby Ilona » Sat Nov 03, 2012 7:30 am

What is not clear? What needs to be understood?
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Re: Can you help "me", Ilona?

Postby Riktam » Sat Nov 03, 2012 4:23 pm

Ilona,

Concepts were all understood.

The problem was:

Thinking as an "I" was still inadvertently happening;
Believing in thoughts was still happening;
Anxiety was still happening;
Suffering was still happening;
Release was not happening.
The two blissful days were yet in the past.

That's why the question: "What's next?".

==========================================================

After reading your last reply in a pad, while waiting in a car wash, then a thought came:

All that will continue happening, but they are not happening to "me" because there is not a "me", right?

So some release happened.
But it's fresh now. Less than an hour, so far.

Doubts would be the worst thing, right?
And they may continue to come.
And forgetting may also.

=========================================================

See what I mean?

Love.
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Re: Can you help "me", Ilona?

Postby Ilona » Sat Nov 03, 2012 4:48 pm

are doubt happening to a me? are they your doubts?

doubts are actually what makes you see what is with fresh eyes. as zen proverb says: the bigger the doubt, the bigger the awakening. so treat them as welcome friends, they are coming for a visit to show you where else you can look to find more clarity.

same with fear, resistance, frustration, open up to them. everything that arises comes up for a reason and sometimes remembering to be open helps. other times there is only openness. it's all like breathing- happens in waves- in and out. up and down. nothing is wrong. and as soon as you notice the shoulds and shouldnt's see if the opposite is true.

looking back into memory for a nice peaceful state takes one away from experiencing peace now. it's allways here underneath all thinking.

and yes, life does not change, just a view changes. everything keeps happening on their own as before. seeing that there is no i, me to which stuff happens, is freedom to experience whatever comes.

can you say that shift has happened? is it still happening?

much love.
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Re: Can you help "me", Ilona?

Postby Riktam » Sat Nov 03, 2012 9:35 pm

Ilona,

Very beautiful and wise words, thank you.
are doubt happening to a me? are they your doubts?
Doubts are acting like those little red devils that climb on one's shoulder and whisper at his ears. :)
They are perceived, not formulated.
They are more like resistance.
Let's welcome them, so?

Yes, there is yet the perception that the more feelings are resisted, the more painful the process is.
can you say that shift has happened? is it still happening?
There is resistance also to say it.
Welcome it?
Deal with it?
Investigate more?

Love.
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Re: Can you help "me", Ilona?

Postby Riktam » Sat Nov 03, 2012 9:47 pm

Ilona, there is a shift, yes, but subtle.
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Re: Can you help "me", Ilona?

Postby Riktam » Sun Nov 04, 2012 5:26 am

Ilona,

When I say "I" below, I mean this mind, no other word to communicate it.

I've dealt the entire day and the evening with all we wrote each other and I've read also some entire processes of guidance in the forum.

I found many statements that helped me, but the following two were very significant:

At LU's FB's page, I found:
Awakening from the story of self does not mean that all of a sudden all of your problems are going to vanish — that there will suddenly be no more tough emotions or challenging situations. This is not about getting away from difficulty, pain, and suffering. Not at all. These are, and will remain, part of the drama of living a human life. So please don’t consider difficult feelings and overwhelming thoughts as a sign that you’re never going to get this, or you’re doing things wrong.
... and in your reply of yesterday I found:
but description of experience is also experience. it is not separate
There was misunderstanding due to the ideas I had things should be when going forward in this process, mainly for beliefs and misunderstandings of what I read elsewhere.

Even after seeing that the "I" is only a label I continued sometimes thinking as an "I", and dreaming, and thinking it should not be that. But this is also part of experience, and I was fighting experience and thinking something was missing.

When imagination happens, OK, what is imagined is not real. But imagination itself is real, its happening here and now and is being experienced also. Not necessary fighting it.

Now I have a deeper understanding and there are no questions and doubts at this moment.
So everything is experience itself happening.

It's Sunday 01:20 a.m. here, and I'm going to bed... in peace!

Thank you.

Riktam.
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Re: Can you help "me", Ilona?

Postby Ilona » Sun Nov 04, 2012 9:20 am

:) so happy to hear that you found peace. Being at peace with what is is freedom from fighting in imaginary war.

How is your day?
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