There is no "I" is understood but only intellectually -help!

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Audra
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Re: There is no "I" is understood but only intellectually -h

Postby Audra » Sun Sep 09, 2012 1:04 pm

“You cannot get rid of unicorn, where will you find it? Also, where will you "get rid of it to"...where to put the damn thing?”
Ha ha, you are funny again. So true!
Who is getting rid of "I"?
“I” was trying to do it, but I would never be able to achieve that.
"I" is like one wave looking at the other waves, telling the other waves IT is the ocean. This is silly, just because it can make the statement doesn't make the statement true.
Ah, I see, so that analogy that many use is not true at all. “I” is not a wave or the ocean, because there is no “I”. Of course! I love this teaching. Thinking that “I” is a wave that one day will realize that “I” is the ocean is a nonsense. It will be seen that there is no “I”. “I” is not and will never be the ‘ocean’. It is so freeing to see this, to know this because there is nothing left for the “I” to do. This “I” will never see or become anything.
“What the hell are you expecting to find? Work with this. How can you find "non-unicorn" in reality?
Yes, “I” cannot find no-self in reality, just like I cannot find non-Unicorn in reality.
“Do you think that awareness that is black and silent needs to change or is going to go somewhere?”
No, it just is totally unaffected by the “I” and thinking.
“Do you think that thought can insert a no-self for you to see so you can tip over? Who is thinking that?”
No, this would never happen. “I” was thinking that.
“Try changing your language around to reflect what you are uncovering. Say "body has tension. Frustration present in the body. There is thinking. There is a twitch in the foot." Drop I, me, self labels for a while.”
Yes, everything appears not so personal with a change of language. I have seen the benefit of it today:
Observing of the body is happening, looking through these eyes is happening, there is a feeling that emptiness is looking, body is in that field of nothing. Body is used to experience.
Thoughts come up, thinking is happening, there is awareness of thoughts, they still appear more personal than the body, but are being observed too.
Yes, changing of the language from now on.
“Go about your work in a relaxed way. Breathe, be nice to yourself. Note what comes up around the "I" from that.”
When this body woke up in the morning, there was a total blank of “me”, but there was awareness. Something was looking for a thought to remember “my” role. This took some seconds to remember. Then this body fell asleep again, and when it woke up, the same thing again. There was confusion, looking for this person it supposed to be. Then there was remembering of the name and circumstances, the role that is played through this body. Like a quick check and grab and then “I” knows what to do and what to be.

Then many times today, there was this great feeling of love and joy that would come over, just like yesterday. It was just there. Moments of bliss. “I” was not grabbing on to it. No-self is not about moments of bliss. Yet, it is so loving and freeing.

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SeeEye
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Re: There is no "I" is understood but only intellectually -h

Postby SeeEye » Sun Sep 09, 2012 4:57 pm

Then many times today, there was this great feeling of love and joy that would come over, just like yesterday. It was just there. Moments of bliss. “I” was not grabbing on to it. No-self is not about moments of bliss. Yet, it is so loving and freeing.
So....what is "I"?

When you say "I"...what does this refer to?

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Audra
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Re: There is no "I" is understood but only intellectually -h

Postby Audra » Mon Sep 10, 2012 7:16 am

“When you say "I"...what does this refer to?”
“I” refers to a thought. “I” is a primary thought that claims all other concepts as “Mine” and then “the Self” is formed. “I” claims this body as “My body” and thoughts as “My thoughts”. It’s a habit.
It is so hard to unbelieve it all.
This mind is frustrated; it feels it is right at the gate, but… There is a feeling of guilt and not wanting to disappoint you because the truth is not being SEEN yet. The SEEING is there and then not there, not quite, not quite…
No, I don’t expect a big splash anymore. There is nothing “I” can do, but it is fighting to the last bit. It’s a control thing.
When the body relaxes, then it’s just being, but once the body is busy doing things, then whatever is happening feels like ‘my’ happening. I see it cannot be “My” happening, but… separation is present.
It’s like, “I” worked so hard all life to get somewhere and now it’s all for nothing because everything was happening by itself anyway. So much suffering for nothing. So much hard work to maintain this “I”, to perfect this Self-image. My-Self has just started liking itself and now it is not real?
So everything would have happened the same way anyway without all that suffering and searching and becoming. It’s so sad sad sad. Must let it all go, “I” was never a master of it, but need to unbelieve this totally.
“So....what is "I"?
“I” is a thought. “I” is a thought. It’s a thought. What is the point to keep saying “I” is a thought? Maybe this repetitive saying will convince the mind, re-condition it.
This mind understands that “I” is not doing anything, everything that forms this “Self” is a thought. The knowing is not so clear that it could be said there is no “Me” experientially. It’s empty, it’s just like this, just nothing, and something is not satisfied. You said once before: you will know when it happens. The complete knowing is not here yet.
This mind is acting like a stuburn child.

Thanking you for your patience.

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Audra
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Re: There is no "I" is understood but only intellectually -h

Postby Audra » Mon Sep 10, 2012 11:17 am

Evening observations:

Now this body is sitting on the couch and watching TV, there is watching, empty watching. Eyes look around the room and there is only a very subtle feeling that I am doing it, very subtle claiming of ownership. Mostly just emptiness looking, watching.

This is different from my post to you a couple of hours ago.
Is this ‘in and out’ real? Can it happen this way? There is seeing, then identifying, then there is seeing again and back to identifying again (which causes the feelings an doubts as described in the earlier post).

Now everything is just fine, relaxation, ah.

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SeeEye
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Re: There is no "I" is understood but only intellectually -h

Postby SeeEye » Mon Sep 10, 2012 1:44 pm

This mind is frustrated; it feels it is right at the gate, but… There is a feeling of guilt and not wanting to disappoint you because the truth is not being SEEN yet.
This body here is not disappointed, it is happy that changes are brewing.
The SEEING is there and then not there, not quite, not quite…
No, I don’t expect a big splash anymore. There is nothing “I” can do, but it is fighting to the last bit. It’s a control thing.
I bet it's starting to feel odd saying poppycock like that. On the one hand it is such serious business, having an "I" and owning that strife, and on the other hand it's just words and letters and sounds sayhahdfhaueakjdkjfadkjw dlfadh29333hf

What can control not seeing what is already there, what has always been there?

You are not surprised when you open the refrigerator and see the milk in there....it's always been in there. Nothing to cry over, even if it's spilled.
So much suffering for nothing. So much hard work to maintain this “I”, to perfect this Self-image. My-Self has just started liking itself and now it is not real?
So everything would have happened the same way anyway without all that suffering and searching and becoming. It’s so sad sad sad. Must let it all go, “I” was never a master of it, but need to unbelieve this totally.
Some things require work and effort, but maybe this is not the same as the struggle, the desperate squeezing of the steering wheel...not much is needed to turn the wheel.
It’s empty, it’s just like this, just nothing, and something is not satisfied.
It was helpful for me to go out for a walk or do things, to change the scenery and context just to accommodate the work.
This is different from my post to you a couple of hours ago.
Is this ‘in and out’ real? Can it happen this way? There is seeing, then identifying, then there is seeing again and back to identifying again (which causes the feelings an doubts as described in the earlier post).
One can find the damnedest things in Fartsville. You were hoping your seeing would happen in SuperEnlightenmentLand where the angels ring the gong and hand you the no-self certificate?

Your knowing is your experience, so me talking about "what is what" will not help at this point.

Let me know what's happening now, and we'll go from there.

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Audra
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Re: There is no "I" is understood but only intellectually -h

Postby Audra » Tue Sep 11, 2012 2:10 pm

“I bet it's starting to feel odd saying poppycock like that. On the one hand it is such serious business, having an "I" and owning that strife, and on the other hand it's just words and letters and sounds sayhahdfhaueakjdkjfadkjw dlfadh29333hf”
Gosh, this was needed – thank you! Especially when you said: “I bet it's starting to feel odd saying poppycock like that”. When I have read it last night, a feeling of shame and embarrassment arose. Then I went to sleep.
In the morning, a new life began…

For the first time, there is a knowing what ‘a flow of life’ means.

The body was driving to work in the morning and thoughts were appearing and disappearing. For the first time there was seeing that they are not connected, they are not a continuous string, but clearly, one comes up, then disappears, then another comes up and disappears, and so on, a very quick process: pop, pop, pop, pop….

Then at some point during the day, the feeling of ‘all is good’ arose, not indifference, but more like acceptance of what is. Then a seeing that life is just a flow, everything is just flowing as one whole flow.
The feeling that everything is perfection and bliss is not shared here, but this is where the deepening of the seeing comes in.

No fireworks, no Samadhi, no big encompassing love, no sudden loving of everyone. “I” did not become ONE with everything (as previously expected). “I” cannot become anything ever. There is just a flow of life with everything appearing in it. It is not about becoming ONE (the biggest lie that can be told), it IS just one flow. This is just a subtle seeing, only the beginning. It is so sweet…
At the same time, not everything that appears in that flow is liked or pleasant. For example, certain people are preferred over others just like yesterday. This body has the same preferences for food. In that sense, nothing changes, but they are not personal.

It is not like there is absolutely no grasping left of this Self concept. It cannot be said that Self or “Me” is already seen in the same category as Santa or Unicorn, however, there is seeing… some sort of observing of that Self as appearance only in that one flow of life.

I want to make it clear than Nothing Big has happened today. Nothing really happened.
It is NOT an event. This mind finally gets what this phrase really means - It is NOT an event!
“One can find the damnedest things in Fartsville. You were hoping your seeing would happen in SuperEnlightenmentLand where the angels ring the gong and hand you the no-self certificate?”
There used to be a belief that I am a wave in the ocean and if I look for myself, I will realize I am the ocean. How exciting that would be, some sort of a big splash would happen (I don’t know, maybe a whale would come along and hit me with its tail hard enough) and there I would be as big as the ocean. Me! Me the ocean! Vast, all loving, with everything appearing in ME. Moreover, this world would then appear like a complete illusion: the tree will not be a tree anymore, it will be something else that looks like a tree, but definitely not a tree. Most importantly, “I” will not give a shit about anything, but at the same time (and clearly hypocritically), “I” will be able to just love and enjoy everything like there is no tomorrow!

There is so much deleting to do on my Ipod!

I do not know your real name, I do not know who or what you are (in body/mind), country you live in, but there is so much love for you! There is so much appreciation here for your guidance. What an expression of love this guidance is. You just know what to say always, you are direct, strict, loving, there is no bull shitting, pure honesty. I can see there is a preference for a nickname and I honor that, and I say thank you, SeeEye.

So what now??? It is a subtle seeing, so the deepening process is to unfold as you said in one of our conversations before. Definitely deepening and ‘cleaning up’ process. I’m not sure of what, I don’t know how this will unfold, everything is just a Mystery.

In the meantime, back to work tomorrow (chop wood carry water). Goodnight.

Lots of love!

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Re: There is no "I" is understood but only intellectually -h

Postby SeeEye » Tue Sep 11, 2012 2:48 pm

Wonderful! Happy to share this with you.

So what is "I"? Explain to me what it is.

There are some final questions, and also some areas people who have seen can interact with each other, once we get to that point.

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Audra
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Re: There is no "I" is understood but only intellectually -h

Postby Audra » Wed Sep 12, 2012 2:54 pm

“I” is a phantom: everyone talks about it, but nobody can find it.
“I” is No thing, just a word representing an idea. “I” can be and usually is used in communication because it provides some reference point. However, when “I” is taken beyond this practicality and there is a belief that “I” exists in reality as a thing, then the happenings in the flow of life that are observed and felt through this body/mind are perceived as personal and belonging to the “I”.
Example:
When a thought comes “I am breathing”, it is automatically, but falsely believed that it is “I” that is breathing, instead of seeing “I” as a word for practical communication only and understanding that it is the Body that is breathing. “I” is not doing anything at all ever because it is a thought.

Claims are made such as “I am a woman”, “I am clever”, “I love”, “I do not like”, “I breath”, “I read” and so on. “I” assumes solidity and is falsely seen as part of physical reality. “I” is then mistakenly perceived as Something that is able to be, think, decide and direct. It is believed that “I” has different characteristics and qualities and a combination of them is called “Self”. In other words, “I” is a director of the entity called “Self”. This “Self” is seen as something very much alive and unique and “I” has a power to change its qualities.
Of course, this is not possible because when this assumption is investigated, the only conclusion that can be made is that “I” cannot do anything, not even a miniscule blink, not the smallest of breaths because it is not a thing, it is nowhere to be found, it is just an idea. It does not have a magical power to make you blink or breath. In reality, blinking is happening, breathing is happening and so on…

Once it is seen that “I” is a thought only and it is seen how the “Self” is created, then “I” is no longer believed in as a thing that exist in reality with its abilities and powers. The concept “I” remains and is useful in communication to refer to certain occurrences in a particular body/mind.

Much can be written here about this “I”, many ways of putting sentences together, the use of various words to express this idea, books have been written about this one-letter word. In short, “I” is a thought and as such, it does not have any physical qualities or powers.

Much love

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SeeEye
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Re: There is no "I" is understood but only intellectually -h

Postby SeeEye » Wed Sep 12, 2012 3:25 pm

Do you have any doubts about this, or are you fully cooked?

Let me know when you are ready for the final questions.

CI

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Audra
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Re: There is no "I" is understood but only intellectually -h

Postby Audra » Thu Sep 13, 2012 1:46 pm

“Do you have any doubts about this, or are you fully cooked?”
There are no doubts about the accuracy of what I have written about the “I” yesterday. I can never be convinced otherwise. Therefore, the belief in the “I” as a powerful director fell away. What fell away with that is the seeking. It is a huge relief. There is an absolute trust in the unfolding process without any belief that “I” can do anything about it. Thus in this sense, the “I” is “fully cooked”, but the seeing is just beginning to unfold. There is trust in this unfolding that is happening by itself. There was no big shift, yet subtle shifting is happening. There is relaxation and allowance. It is also known here that this is only the beginning.
“Let me know when you are ready for the final questions.”
I do not know if I am ready because there is nobody to be ready. Therefore, shoot the next question and we will see what response arises here. Without a belief that “I” will have the answer, there is just mystery. I do not know anything. Yet, when I look into your questions, further clarity seems to reveal itself.

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SeeEye
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Re: There is no "I" is understood but only intellectually -h

Postby SeeEye » Thu Sep 13, 2012 3:18 pm

Hi Audra,

Nice work, although no one to take credit for it : ) These are the final questions that are given. It is possible that others may also have a question for you.



1) Is there a 'me', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever? how about self, is there anything that is separate from everything else?



2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works.



3) How does it feel to see this? describe in detail.



4) How would you describe it to somebody who has never heard about this illusion but is curious about it.



5) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look? was there a specific moment when seeing happened or was it gradual? what exactly happened?

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Audra
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Re: There is no "I" is understood but only intellectually -h

Postby Audra » Sat Sep 15, 2012 2:42 am

I have written a lot, so I will post the answers to your five questions as separate posts.
1) Is there a 'me', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever? how about self, is there anything that is separate from everything else?
There is no “Me” anywhere, in any way, shape or form and never was. There was a belief in concepts “Me”, “I”, “Self”, but with your guidance and direct looking into these concepts, the belief fell away.
With elimination of a belief in “Self”, there is no reference point from which things are seen as outside of “Me” world. Therefore, everything just IS. At the same time, this body/mind is different from all other bodies out there, it displays unique mannerisms, has its own preferences and dislikes. However, these peculiarities do not belong to the entity called “Self”. This body/mind is a vehicle for the seeing and experiencing. Although different things are experienced through various bodies, they are not separated by the belief that the experiences belong to somebody. One could say that experiencing is happening as different appearances. Thus, there is no separation, but there are many appearances that are different from each other just as before. This is really difficult to talk about!!! Language is so limited.
2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works.
When body/mind is very young (a child is very small), it starts hearing words such as “I” and “You”. The mind starts formulating reference points. “I” means this body. “You” means that body. At first, it is merely a language, just a way of conveying a message, expressing feelings. Then the mind is conditioned to believe that this “I” has unique qualities and can make choices trough phrases such as: you must behave, you must eat, you are good, you are bad, what a clever child, what a silly child and so on. This young mind starts collecting qualities, preferences, likes and dislikes and attributes those to this “I”. Over time, more and more particulars are collected and the package is claimed to belong to the separate entity that gets a name “Self”. “I” is believed to be a separate collector of various particularities and a director of the entity called “Self”. This “Self” is seen as a unique package that needs to be protected and perfected and “I” is seen as having a power to change the qualities of the package: take some out and acquire new ones. The game starts: mind believes that “I” has power. This belief is not questioned because everybody has the same belief until something just does not glue together, something seems wrong, but you cannot put your finger on it. The seeking to find your “true-self” starts and so it goes on and on in circles. Why? Because it is believed that “I” is the one looking for the self, when in fact it is not capable of doing one single thing. It is not the “I” that is searching. It is not the “Self” that is seeking to perfect itself, be it through enlightenment, career, money, love, happiness, adventure or whatever. In truth, there is just experiencing of the seeking (but mind believes that “I” is seeking), but “I” cannot seek for Self – it is a thought. It is not even Life (or you can call it Consciousness or Awareness) that is experiencing something, because then you mistakenly believe that Life too is a separate thing that is able to have the experience. It is not a thing that experiences. Experiencing just IS. Awareness just IS. Life just IS. Awareness is not seeking anything. Nothing and nobody is seeking. This is why mind is never satisfied – it is looking for the Self and can never find it. You can never find the Self you are looking for because it does not exist. The relief is in unbelieving that Self exists in reality as some entity with power to do.
In a life of any body/mind organism, there are times when happiness is felt and when suffering is felt. These feelings are real. The Self was never there to experience those feelings because Self is a construct of thoughts and not capable of feeling or experiencing anything. Yet, the experiencing of feelings is happening. There is just experiencing, just loving, just suffering, just reading, all without you.

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Audra
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Re: There is no "I" is understood but only intellectually -h

Postby Audra » Sat Sep 15, 2012 2:49 am

I am continuing from previous post:
3) How does it feel to see this? describe in detail.
No fireworks, no ecstasy, no all-encompassing bliss. It is like taking a heavy load of your shoulders. There is a feeling of lightness. The need to defend the Self is falling away. Seeking enlightenment falls away. It feels like the beginning of seeing. There is openness and trust in unfolding that is happening by itself, with no “me” to have to do it. Sweet relief, calm joy, gentle love and simplicity. Deep appreciation for your guidance is felt here.
4) How would you describe it to somebody who has never heard about this illusion but is curious about it.
I would say, let’s talk about Santa.
There is an old man with a long white beard called Santa and he lives in the North Pole. All year round, he makes toys and just in one day once every year, he delivers those toys to all kids around the world. Do you believe me? No? Why not? You believed it once, didn’t you? So what happened? It is different for everyone, but one day (or gradually over time), you saw that Santa was no longer real, yet you happily allow him to remain as a beautiful concept/idea in your mind.
Now, what if I told you that what you think that You are is the same and as illusory as Santa, the only difference is that you still believe it. Are you curious? Want to play with me for a minute? Ok, let’s start:

- Where is the real Santa? Not your neighbor dressed in Santa clothes, but the Real Santa.
- Nowhere, it does not exist.
- Why not?
- Because Santa is a concept, a great and fun idea.
- Is Santa also a word/name/label for the concept it represents?
- Yes, Santa is also a word.
- So we agree that: Santa = a word = name/label representing a concept (a great and fun idea).
- Ok, now show me where is “Me”?
- Well, I am this body and this brain with all its knowledge and thoughts, so Me is here all this.
- Let’s break this down. First, show me the knowledge.
- I cannot show you knowledge because it is not a thing.
- So what is knowledge?
- A combination of thoughts, concepts, ideas that are mine.
- Now show me where is “me” in the body.
- “Me” is this body. It is mine, just like my knowledge.
- I see the body, you are showing me the body, but I asked you to show me this “Me” either in this body or in the knowledge, in thoughts.
- Well, “Me” is a word I use to show that this body and its thoughts and knowledge are all Me. “Me” represents those.
- You said “Me” is a word you use. What is “a word”? What does it represent?
- A word describes a thing, gives it a name/label. Words represent concepts, things and actions. Words are used in communication to express meaning.
- Is “word” a thing in itself? Does it exist in reality?
- No, words are labels that represent concepts, things and actions.
- You said before that “Me” is a word. Therefore, “Me” = a word = a name/label that represents concepts, things and actions.
- Agree.
- Back to original question: where is “Me”, show me.
- Nowhere, it does not exist in reality, it is a word and a concept for what I am.
- Where is Santa?
- Nowhere, it does not exist in reality.
- What is Santa? Remember and repeat what you said before.
- Santa is a concept, a great and fun idea.
- Do you agree that: “Me” = a word = a name/label that represents concepts, things and actions = Santa = a word = a name/label representing a concept (a great and fun idea).
- Logical, accept for the part that says ‘a great and fun idea’ because I am miserable!
- Did I not tell you that what you think that you are is just like Santa – an idea/concept. The only difference is that you still believe it. Now you have to SEE it for yourself, to unbelieve it, just like Santa was unbelieved. How can a concept/a thought “Me” have any ability to possess or direct other concepts? It does not have power in itself. Cook in this until it is SEEN that there is no “ME” is reality! It is only an idea. Then let the concept “ME” be like you let “Santa” be, it will not disturb you. It is a great and fund idea!

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Audra
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Re: There is no "I" is understood but only intellectually -h

Postby Audra » Sat Sep 15, 2012 2:52 am

Continuing from previous post:
5) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look? was there a specific moment when seeing happened or was it gradual? what exactly happened?
It was gradual. No sudden falling into anything. We have been conversing for about one week when suddenly you made two things very clear:

1. The ocean analogy that I have picked up from many other teachings and that was not explained properly, was seen as false. I used to believe that I am a wave in the ocean looking for myself and that one day I will realize I am the ocean, I will find the Self. You made it clear, that realization is NOT realizing that you are something, like the ocean; realization is to see that there is NO you (no Self) in any way or form. Your Fartsville analogy and exercise helped to see this truth. Loved it!

2. After it was seen that “Self” is an idea, the mind was still holding onto it and waiting for something to happened. I said something that was not making sense even to me anymore. Then you said: “I bet it's starting to feel odd saying poppycock like that. On the one hand it is such serious business, having an "I" and owning that strife, and on the other hand it's just words and letters and sounds sayhahdfhaueakjdkjfadkjw dlfadh29333hf”
As I told you before, a feeling of shame and embarrassment arose; I thought this person gives me so much time to guide me and I am like a stubborn child holding on to ideas as real. Then on the next day a new life began. “Self” was unbelieved. For the first time, there was a knowing what ‘a flow of life’ means. Thoughts were seen as distinct appearances, not continuous. It felt like a new beginning. There was no feeling that everything is perfection and bliss, but there was knowing that unfolding is happening and seeing is deepening all by itself, without “me” as a director, and it will be unfolding by itself. It was always like that, but I believed in the illusion of a powerful Me. The seeker was no more.

Nothing Big has happened. Nothing really happened. It was NOT an event. I don’t know how this will unfold, everything is just a Mystery and it is ok, there is acceptance and trust in that. Gentle loving.

So here are my answers to all your five questions, it took a few hours to write this down, to re-read it, so that I don’t confuse anyone with words, people give words much power.

Thank you so much, my dear friend. So grateful to you. Much love!

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Re: There is no "I" is understood but only intellectually -h

Postby SeeEye » Sun Sep 16, 2012 4:12 pm

Hi Audra,

Glad you have seen this for yourself.

There is another section of the forum, and a Facebook group for people who are interested in guiding others, aftercare, etc.

I can't send you a PM because you have that disabled.

http://www.facebook.com/groups/247540335283827/

Message the admin or Ilona on Facebook tell her your LU name, that you went through.


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