Anyone wants to chat?

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Andy
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Re: Anyone wants to chat?

Postby Andy » Sun Nov 04, 2012 12:20 pm

Crossing a gate implies a movement, a progression from point A ( through a gate ) to point B. Believing that there is a gate to cross is like believing that the LU investigation is a process leading to an attainment. It could be compared to dissolving a sugar cube in a cup of tea: I start off with a sugar cube ( a self ) which I then put it in a cup of tea until it dissolves ( no self ).

Rather than being a progression toward an accomplishment, the LU investigation is merely a seeing of reality. The sugar cube doesn't melt because there was never any sugar cube to start with.

I woke up in the middle of last night and had a typical stream of thoughts. I was able to see that there was a gap between the thought stream and a subsequent thought that claimed: "I conjured up these thoughts!" In other words, it was plain to me that the thoughts had arisen spontaneously and not at the command of an illusionary self. Noticing this gap was significant for me; it hadn't been seen before.

The looking continues ( all by itself ).

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Ilona
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Re: Anyone wants to chat?

Postby Ilona » Sun Nov 04, 2012 10:07 pm

You got it spot on- the looking is happening. The process is happening, mind is resolving confusion and is starting to see what is, not what fits it's expectations.

There is no sugar and no tea. Only what is happening now and is sensed through senses. The rest is story about it, also just happening by itself and is part of experience.

Are you in control of what is?
How does it feel to see that?


Sending love.
Truth realized will set you free.
http://ilonaciunaite.com/book

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Andy
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Re: Anyone wants to chat?

Postby Andy » Thu Nov 08, 2012 10:43 am

I woke up at 5 o'clock this morning and tried to get back to sleep. I failed. It struck me that even with something as important as getting a good night's sleep the self is completely impotent ( non-existent ).Surely, if there were an appropriate situation where the self could show itself, ride to the rescue and exercise some control, this is it. Nothing doing!I could see that when or whether I fell back to sleep was entirely under the control of pre-conscious processes and the environment ( the temperature and level of noise ).

Then the question arose of who is aware of this failure to fall back to sleep? Surely that is who I really am. It was as if the self ( concept ) was trying to hang on for dear life; that the self, having been booted out of the territory that it formerly inhabited ( apparently ), is now desperately trying claim that it is the 'ghost in the machine' ( or it's biological equivalent ); the silent but now impotent observer.

This, of course, is just another spontaneously arising thought.

How does it feel to see that there is no control? It feels like "I" can just watch "life happening", as you say. It takes a lot of the tension out of this body/mind; there is a 'going with the flow', rather than an intense sense that I need to be a better manipulator of life.

It seems as if the self ( concept ) has packed it's bags and is ready to leave home. At the moment though it seems to be hanging around for one last cup of tea.

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Re: Anyone wants to chat?

Postby Ilona » Thu Nov 08, 2012 12:33 pm

the self, having been booted out of the territory that it formerly inhabited ( apparently ), is now desperately trying claim that it is the 'ghost in the machine' ( or it's biological equivalent ); the silent but now impotent observer.
so there is a self that observes? or is observing happening effortlessly too? see if the observer is on the same shelf with breather.

i observe, i breathe, is it i that is observing?

getting close....
Truth realized will set you free.
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Andy
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Re: Anyone wants to chat?

Postby Andy » Sat Nov 10, 2012 11:11 am

Your questions just tore my notion of an observer-self to shreds. It's ridiculous to think of the observing function of this body/mind as being any part of a personal, separate, volitional self. Yes, it is happening effortlessly, just like breathing-"I" don't do observing any more than "I" do breathing.

I did wonder about the focusing aspect of observing: surely that is something that is controlled by "me"; surely "I" zero in on the objects that "I" want to? I quickly saw through that because it was obvious that focusing happens automatically according whether there is interest or not ( pre-concious conditioning ).

Yesterday "I" saw that I had had ( still have? ) a subtle notion that "I" was managing this process of trying to see that "I" don't exist; that I needed to knuckle down, work hard, and successfully complete this project of dropping the self illusion. This is obviously an absurd notion-like imagining that Winnie the Pooh can be sent on a mission to disprove the existence of Winnie the Pooh.

All this leaves "me" with the realisation that this body/mind can find no job for a self to do. All I have now is a powerful sense of an I, a sense that I have had all my life. It seems so radical to think that there is simply no one home here; that there is no 'ghost in the machine'; that there is just the 'machine'. These, of course, are just spontaneously occurring ( though highly charged ) thoughts. The fact is, I simply cannot find a 'ghost' in this 'machine'.

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Re: Anyone wants to chat?

Postby Ilona » Sun Nov 11, 2012 8:47 am

Great!
This is obviously an absurd notion-like imagining that Winnie the Pooh can be sent on a mission to disprove the existence of Winnie the Pooh.
well, all is possible in the story. And in the story of andy there is a chapter where andy finds out that what he thought was reality is a fictional story.

Ok, so there is no job for a self. Does it even exist?
The sense of aliveness, being is not going anywhere, it's the belief that this sense is in control of what is is drooping.

What does the word I point to?


Much love.
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Andy
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Re: Anyone wants to chat?

Postby Andy » Thu Nov 15, 2012 10:45 am

The word "I" points to a little man that lives inside my head, just behind my eyes. He sits on a black, leather, swivel chair, and has a little, tartan flask of tea, and a big stack of sandwiches next to him. He looks out on the world through my eyes, every minute of every day. He needs all those sandwiches to keep him going because he spends the whole time weighing up situations, and making lots of choices and decisions that he thinks will be in my best interests.

He gets quite tense sitting in his executive chair because if he gets any of his decisions wrong then that might cause a lot of inconvenience and suffering. If he knows what's good for him he should take up Tai Chi and learn to relax a bit more. This is all very difficult, of course, because the stakes are so high-just one wrong decision and who knows what problems that might ensue?

Recently though, when I try to find my little man, his seat is empty.

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Re: Anyone wants to chat?

Postby Ilona » Thu Nov 15, 2012 2:39 pm

haha, nice story. how about the chair, is it still there?
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Andy
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Re: Anyone wants to chat?

Postby Andy » Wed Nov 21, 2012 10:56 am

The momentum is building with this investigation. Things that I would have previously considered to have been done by "me" are now seen to be done automatically.

I needed some white, nail varnish to paint over some scratches on my car. I was in a charity shop yesterday and noticed a small, see-through container with some bottles of white, nail varnish on the counter. I immediately remembered that I needed a bottle and bought one. Previously, I would have congratulated myself on being so observant ( observation is not a strong point ), but this time it was blatantly obvious that there was no "me" involved in this at all. The noticing had happened by itself, by no one.

The other day, I was trying to think of a name for my little man in his little, executive chair. I soon realised that he already has a name; it's Andy. It's Andy who ( apparently ) weighs up situations and makes choices; it's Andy who is the goal-setter, legislator, and policy-maker of "my" life.

Where is Andy ( and his little chair )? They are only to be found in thoughts about "Andy". They are no more real than Winnie-the-Pooh and his pots of honey.

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Re: Anyone wants to chat?

Postby Ilona » Thu Nov 22, 2012 8:45 am

Very nice. Andy and his little chair :) how cute.

So can you say that shift has happened and are you ready for the final questions?
If not, what else is here that needs to be looked at?

Sending love.
Truth realized will set you free.
http://ilonaciunaite.com/book

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Andy
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Re: Anyone wants to chat?

Postby Andy » Sun Nov 25, 2012 11:44 am

I was expecting some kind of 'Aha!' moment but there hasn't been one. For such a significant shift in perception as seeing no self wouldn't there have to be a watershed; an event of seeing? I remember when you described your awakening on Buddha at the Gaspump: you hit the heel of your hand against your forehead to indicate ( it seemed to me ) that it was a big 'Aha!' moment for you.

For me it seems to be a gradual falling away of the belief in a self rather than it being an event.

When a child stops believing in Father Christmas I suspect that it's more of a gradual falling away of the belief too. Last Christmas they believed in him, this Christmas they don't, but they couldn't put their finger on one particular moment when the belief disappeared. Maybe seeing no self can be like that too?

Maybe I'm like someone who's numbers have come up on the lottery. He checks his ticket and sees that he has all 6 winning numbers but he has to keep checking and checking and checking to make sure that he really has won. Winning millions is so revolutionary for him that it takes time for the realisation to 'sink in'. It seems just too good to be true.

When I look, I can find no conscious controlling entity here. Everything "I" do, say and think is seen to be arising spontaneously. The ramifications of this for "my" life are radical and revolutionary; stunning and wonderful. It seems to need time to 'bake in'.

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Re: Anyone wants to chat?

Postby Ilona » Mon Nov 26, 2012 10:08 am

For me it was a tiny puff rather then huge awakening experience. The change on the surface seemed small, but the depth of it, the implications huge.

Mind keeps checking and it's all right. It will keep looking till it's clear and then checking drops. It may take months till it happens. So whatever the mind is doing is what needs to happen.

Tell me, how does it feel to see that I/ me/ self is illusion? Can you describe if there is any change in your daily life and interactions with others. Also, are there others?

Sending love.
Truth realized will set you free.
http://ilonaciunaite.com/book

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Andy
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Re: Anyone wants to chat?

Postby Andy » Sat Dec 01, 2012 10:49 am

I wonder if there is a difference between having no belief in a self ( which applies to me ) and experiencing/realising no self ( which applies to you )?

I haven't noticed any differences in my interactions with others. One friend said, last week, that there is a different energy about me and that I seem more relaxed, less insecure, and that I like myself more. As I'm in the middle of starting a new business, and as I have a bad cold I am feeling more tension now than I have in a long time, and so I struggle to recognise those changes ( if true ) myself.

Since starting on this investigation there has been a gradually increasing acceptance of life as it is rather than a fretting about how can "I" improve "my" life. There is a growing recognition that whatever happens occurs automatically, and that therefore there couldn't be anything happening other than what is actually happening. This is a great relief for me. I am relishing that relief.

When you say that you experienced a "tiny puff", you are referring to an event: a watershed moment. I haven't experienced that.





Ever since being guided by you I have noticed a gradual

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Re: Anyone wants to chat?

Postby Ilona » Sat Dec 01, 2012 1:08 pm

Hi Andy
I wonder if there is a difference between having no belief in a self ( which applies to me ) and experiencing/realizing no self ( which applies to you )?
how would you experience no self? can you experience something that isn't here? let's say there is no mickey mouse, how do you experience the absence of Mickey? how do you know that there is no mickey? what is the difference between belief that there is no mickey mouse and knowing that there is no mickey?
I have a bad cold I am feeling more tension now than I have in a long time
should the tension not be here? do you imagine, that once it's seen that self is fiction, the sensations and feelings become dull and no intensity would be felt ever? hmmm
When you say that you experienced a "tiny puff", you are referring to an event: a watershed moment. I haven't experienced that.
what is it that should happen? sometimes the shift is so subtle, that can only be noticed, when looked back. it may have happened already. all it is is a drop of belief. can be gradual, can be big aha, does not matter. question is, can you ever believe that there is this separate individual entity inside the bag of skin that is in charge of life of the back of skin, aka human animal.

:)
sending love.
Truth realized will set you free.
http://ilonaciunaite.com/book

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Andy
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Re: Anyone wants to chat?

Postby Andy » Thu Dec 06, 2012 10:35 am

Thank you very much for clearing things up. I was expecting a watershed; glad to know that it doesn't have to occur.

It's like this cold that I had recently: I had all the symptoms but gradually they cleared up. Now that the cold is gone I couldn't identify a point when I went from having a cold to not having a cold, but I do know that it's gone now.

When I was a toddler I caught the "self-virus" and suffered from it for many years. Since starting on the LU "medicine" a few months ago the virus has gradually cleared up. I can't say exactly when it disappeared but I can find no trace of it now.

I don't believe it will ever come back :-)


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