Anyone wants to chat?

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Ilona
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Re: Anyone wants to chat?

Postby Ilona » Sun Sep 30, 2012 8:11 pm

Aha, you are turning your gaze onto it.
Now examine what language has to do with I and me. How does language work,is there I or me outside of language?

Every noun word points to something,
Every verb points to action

Some words don't point anywhere, they serve as junctions: if, and, but, me... Here, there, I are concepts. Tags, labels, used for convenience in communicating.

Read this post and do the exercise within. Write to me what you have learned about language.
http://markedeternal.blogspot.co.uk/201 ... s.html?m=1

Sending love.
Truth realized will set you free.
http://ilonaciunaite.com/book

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Andy
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Re: Anyone wants to chat?

Postby Andy » Sun Oct 14, 2012 11:03 am

I did the exercise and found that "I" was superfluous, that its just used for clear communication. I believe that there is no self but I don't know there is no self. I keep remembering the old maxim that, 'absence of evidence isn't evidence of absence'.

For example, up until the 19th century people didn't believe in dinosaurs because no evidence had been found for their existence. Although, at that time, there was an absence of evidence, it didn't constitute evidence of absence, it just meant that the evidence hadn't yet been discovered. It could be said that people at that time believed in 'no dinosaur' and that, later on, when dinosaur fossils began to be unearthed, those people had to abandon their belief in 'no dinosaur' and accept the truth that such things did once exist.

Believing, as I do, in 'no self' I am left with the doubt that, in time, some evidence could be 'unearthed' that proves that such a thing as a self does exist after all.

All of this highlights the truth that with every belief comes doubt. I need to get to a position regarding 'no self' that I am in regarding something like day following night: I don't believe that day follows night; rather, I know by direct experience that it does. Getting to the same position regarding, 'no self' seems like a tall order for me.

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Re: Anyone wants to chat?

Postby Ilona » Sun Oct 14, 2012 3:53 pm

This is exactly what requires- direct experience.
Also what evidence is there that there is a self? And yet you believe that it is. Believing in no self is just the same- trusting that whoever tells you that is telling the truth. This is not what you want.

To see if there is separate self or there is isn't one must look.
You notice that after day comes night. Same here, watch how everything is happening on automatic. There is no one one here changing day for the night, it's part of life, it's happening.

Start observing with curiosity, is there a doer in your experience. If you sit for 10 minutes still. Watch little movements of the body, how it's adjusting in the chair, reacting to sounds, how mind is describing experienced. What comes first- the movement or thought about it? Do you know what move is coming next?

You don't need to get in special state, ordinary activities are the best to watch the body. What is not on automatic?

Write what you find.
Truth realized will set you free.
http://ilonaciunaite.com/book

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Andy
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Re: Anyone wants to chat?

Postby Andy » Thu Oct 18, 2012 11:10 am

Doing your 10 minute exercise reveals a body/mind that behaves in entirely spontaneous ways. I've watched your extract from "Horizon" and the Gary Weber interview as well as reading Gary Crowley's, From here to Here. They all make such a compelling case for there being no conscious will that I have been converted to that belief. So strong is my belief that I've started preaching it to others.

I do retain a doubt that I could be mistaken though. I talked to my Vipassana Teacher ( who has spent many years looking inward ), and he is entirely convinced that there is such a thing as free will. His concept of no-self is that there is no intrinsic self but rather an an unstable, composite self produced by myriad causes and conditions that is fully capable of making conscious decisions.

There have been many times in my life where I have been convinced of the truthfulness of something only to later find that I was mistaken. Maybe its this that prevents my belief in no-self becoming a fully fledged realisation. This is frustrating for me as I know that the belief alone cannot lead to liberation. Maybe its just a question of relentlessly looking at my thoughts, actions and words and eventually the scales will fall from my eyes. I certainly hope so. There is nothing that I want more than this.

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Re: Anyone wants to chat?

Postby Ilona » Thu Oct 18, 2012 1:44 pm

What has somebody else's idea to do with your own experience?
Why would second hand descriptions by others would be compared to your own first hand experience. So what that people describe free will in different ways, only thing that matters is how it is for YOU. That is where thinking for yourself starts and ends. You look and see for yourself, how this free will is expressed or not in your experience.

So write what you see, not what someone else says, cool?

Another thing- this is your process and so work it out for yourself, by yourself for the love of truth.

How does free will, choice look through your eyes? Is it your choice? Is it your will or that is what thoughts say about it? What is not on automatic?

Dig deeper, andy. Take this seriously.
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Re: Anyone wants to chat?

Postby Andy » Sat Oct 20, 2012 8:51 am

Thanks for being straightforward with me. I needed that. I've set aside other spiritual material and am concentrating exclusively on this investigation.

I had a long stream of sequential thought, a logical progression of thought images which would normally give me the impression, or the 'proof' that I can manipulate my thoughts; only on this occasion I realised that I had been daydreaming and that therefore there could have been no conscious control of those thoughts.

This helped me as it showed me that even thought streams that appear to be controlled can happen automatically. This leaves very little space for any 'self' to inhabit. Its as if the self-concept is hanging by a thread. I will keep digging.

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Re: Anyone wants to chat?

Postby Ilona » Sat Oct 20, 2012 9:26 am

Great stuff andy. Yes, find that last expectation that says what should happen or last fear that still wants that self in the system in order to feel safe.

Look again at thinking. Where do thoughts come from?
Is there a thinker?
Is there a doer in the body that makes body move?

Lift you left arm above the head.
How does that happen?
Do it few times to see if there is a chooser. Watch your body go through the day, are you the controller of it?

:)
Sending love.
Truth realized will set you free.
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Re: Anyone wants to chat?

Postby Andy » Mon Oct 22, 2012 9:03 pm

So near and yet so far! This has become my obsession. Looking, looking, looking. I see that thoughts arise spontaneously; I see that the body moves spontaneously and yet, and yet-no seeing through the illusion.

I don't feel any fear about the no-self realisation as I know that nothing gets lost other than a false belief.

As for an expectation of what passing through the gate will be like I would say that its that it will be a crystal clear seeing that the self is an illusion. I don't expect the ramifications of that to necessarily become apparent straight away ( although they might ). I certainly have no grandiose expectations of all thought ceasing and experiencing wave after wave of ecstasy and bliss.

Do people sometimes fail to to go through the gate despite the best of intentions and application? Does the neurology have to be ready? I will persist with this for as long as it takes. I experienced an hour and a half spontaneous ( not during meditation ) samadhi yesterday morning, which is far, far longer than I've ever experienced it before. It feels like this happened due to the relentless focus on this question of no-self.

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Re: Anyone wants to chat?

Postby Ilona » Tue Oct 23, 2012 12:01 pm

Can you see that looking is also happening by itself?

This has nothing to do with states. Samadhi or normal ordinary state are just states. They come and go.
Can you see that?

Can I/me cross anything? Is there a gate?


Sending love.
Truth realized will set you free.
http://ilonaciunaite.com/book

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Andy
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Re: Anyone wants to chat?

Postby Andy » Thu Oct 25, 2012 7:50 pm

Yes, looking is automatic too.

Sorry I didn't make myself clear about the samadhi. I was just saying that it could have been induced by the intense focus on this process, not that seeing no self requires samadhi or is synonymous with it.

There is no I/me to cross anything and so 'crossing' the 'gateless gate' is just a metaphor for seeing the truth of no self.

Spent a lot of time yesterday explaining all of this to my sister which clarified 'my' understanding and deepened 'my' belief in no self even more. Turning that belief into a seeing seems very challenging. Its like 'someone' has padlocked the gateless gate.

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Re: Anyone wants to chat?

Postby Ilona » Thu Oct 25, 2012 8:09 pm

it's kind of like this. you think that there is a box. there is no box. there is no one to get anything, nor turn this from belief to seeing. you are staring right at it. you say that there is no gate, then say that there is a lock. there is no lock. sit with that. this is it.. as it is.
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Andy
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Re: Anyone wants to chat?

Postby Andy » Sun Oct 28, 2012 11:51 am

I appreciate how patient 'you' are being with 'me'.

If Liberation Unleashed were a classroom I'd be the good boy sitting at the front, bright eyed and raring to go. I carefully read and apply your replies and I always do my homework very conscientiously: I write down your replies on a piece of paper and look at it throughout the day.

Liberation Unleashed has also become like a religion for me: I have LU sacred texts ( your book and app ) which I study every day; I have an LU High Priestess to shepherd me to salvation; I have the LU gospel to preach to all the people in bondage to the illusory self; and I have the LU practice of looking at thoughts and actions, which is a great way of staying in the moment and not being swept away into the past or future. This is a pretty cool religion.

So, what is the sticking point here? The only thing that comes to mind is the powerful sense of 'me' that sometimes sweeps over 'me'. Someone embarrassed me the other day and the self loomed very large. I had a pang of regret this morning which also made the self seem very real and very dominant. Seeing through that seems to be the keyless key for the lockless lock for the gateless gate.

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Re: Anyone wants to chat?

Postby Ilona » Sun Oct 28, 2012 7:02 pm

Looks like you assume that negative emotions, resistance, tension, intense situations bring out a self.
Check if it's true. Is tension coming from a me or it just comes as a reaction to a situation? If leg is itching, is that coming from a me? And the scratch that follows, are you doing that?

See if the reactions that supposedly make the self real are of your own doing or they too happen on automatic.

One more thing may help, stop reading other people's experiences. Instead focus on your own, what is here, what do you notice, is noticing happening by itself or there is a doer of noticing. See if a doer can be found anywhere.

Write what comes up.
Truth realized will set you free.
http://ilonaciunaite.com/book

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Andy
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Re: Anyone wants to chat?

Postby Andy » Thu Nov 01, 2012 11:32 am

The intense situations don't seem to bring out a self; tension doesn't seem to come from a self; rather it seems to to be experienced by a self.

Your question asking if noticing is happening by itself or if there is a doer of noticing was a penetrating one for me. I have seen that all thoughts, words and actions are occurring spontaneously. As these things were formerly attributed to the self, the self has therefore 'shrunk' as it were. It dawned on me that, since then, the sense of self seems to have 'dug in' in it's role as the observer ( the doer of noticing ) and the experiencer.

The feeling that came up as a result of this was melancholy. I felt that giving up this last bastion of the self would be a sad loss for me; something that I will grieve over. This is due to the realisation that totally seeing through the illusion of the self is to recognise that this body/mind is entirely controlled by its genes and conditioning; that it is in effect a neuro-biological puppet.

Of course, I quickly realised that this has always been the case; that seeing the self as non-existent doesn't result in any loss because what was never there in the first place can never be lost. Despite recognising this to be the case there is still some sense of unease and resistance to 'dropping' the self entirely. It feels like stepping into uncharted territory which is throwing up some trepidation. Poor little 'Andy'!

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Re: Anyone wants to chat?

Postby Ilona » Fri Nov 02, 2012 8:58 am

Sounds like you are getting close!
Now look, is there are gate to cross?
Is there a self to cross it?

Was there ever?
Truth realized will set you free.
http://ilonaciunaite.com/book


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