Daiczech, this one is for you.

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daiczech
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Re: Daiczech, this one is for you.

Postby daiczech » Thu Oct 20, 2011 11:02 am

Can you look at character (of daiczech) and describe what you see. Is there an actor, director, manager needed for the role to be playing out? Can you look from a point of view of different characters and see what daiczech is for them, how is seen through different eyes. notice, that it's all just stories.
There is a body and brain/mind which have responded to all the happenings, events good and bad, influences, conditions, pain and happiness that have occurred around and in them over many years. The resut is a "flowing vortex of thoughts, sensations and feelings" that carries the label Daiczech. This character meshes with all the events of its everyday life and reacts in whatever way its conditioning and its current dispositions lead. There is no need for a manager or actor for this role. It is a process. Diaczech is a convenient label so I'm not mistaken for another being in everyday transactions. Is there still some free will and some scope for responsible action? Yes, but these will be formed by the build up of experiences, counterthoughts and a balancing act (conditioning).
When the illusion of self is gone is there still room to be pleased when something good has been worked for and been gained? Don't know. Is there any point in havng reactions to everyday issues? Don't know.
Looked at by different characters - so many people have a different view of me. To a young child I am a warm and trusted father figure, to a teenage girl I am an old git of immensely boring proportions, to an impoverished and unhappy person I could seem affected and smug.
Is any of these correct? No. Nor is my own view of Daiczech. They are all stories and all perception on this level is subject to great error. They are all stories about a label - how smart is that!
There is no function for I in this play of life but in accepting that there is no function, anxiety now clings to 1. losing control 2. being unable to exercise any moral judgement (same as 1,really). Does life still have meaning. is there any point in trying etc.....?
The story can go on by itself. It does already, but the flow of life is hindered by the illusion of "I".

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Ilona
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Re: Daiczech, this one is for you.

Postby Ilona » Thu Oct 20, 2011 11:31 am

very good..
ok. let's look a bit deeper here.
does life need a meaning?
what a tree means? is there any meaning necesary for life to go on? what creates a meaning and what is looking for it?

and if there is really no separate being here, what would loose control? was there ever any control at all or just an illusion of it?

do not worry for now how it is after, you will see once we are done with this process. nothing will change. story will continue. just keep looking.. it's going great.
Truth realized will set you free.
http://ilonaciunaite.com/book

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daiczech
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Re: Daiczech, this one is for you.

Postby daiczech » Thu Oct 20, 2011 1:07 pm

No, life doesn't need a meaning. It only needs to be.
It's part of the illusion to want life to have a meaning that we can understand - that would give some kind of reassurance and comfort.
What does a tree mean? I'd better ask one! It is itself, fulfilling its genetic destiny, living its llife.
Life goes on whether there is meaning or not. It is life. It is. Time does not stop to reflect on its meaning, nor does life - but "I" can try to give it one if I don't look wisely to see that none is needed.
So, "I" can create a meaning or the need for one and can go looking for one. But as I is only a thought it can only flicker and die, like the meaning it is searching.
and if there is really no separate being here, what would loose control? was there ever any control at all or just an illusion of it?


No, there's a twist in the thinking. There is no control now as body and mind get on with the job of daily management and are happy to do so without supervision. The illusion wants to be involved and can deceive itself and the unwary onlooker - "me". As now is a satisfactory state of affairs i.e there is no control but most things seem to hang together OK without intervention from me then it will be fine if things continue like that without "me".
The idea that nothing will change is something absolutely worth taking on trust - there doesn't seem to be any other way.

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Ilona
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Re: Daiczech, this one is for you.

Postby Ilona » Thu Oct 20, 2011 3:13 pm

brilliant. you are geting very close.
let's see if there is a doer in there, is tere a me that intervents with what is. how does it do it?
is there a watcher, a witnesser, a focuser, a doer, a decider? answer all these.

then this one: Is there anyone looking, serching, wanting to find truth? what is going on here?
Truth realized will set you free.
http://ilonaciunaite.com/book

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daiczech
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Re: Daiczech, this one is for you.

Postby daiczech » Thu Oct 20, 2011 4:41 pm

Things get done, by this body and mind. No other doer.
There has always been a sense of me but me can't be found or seen. Me intervenes by claiming ownership after the event.
Test: I've decided not to go to the AGM this evening but to stay home and watch TV instead. What is the reality of this statement?
Reality: Tired, feeling of resistance to going out. Cold weather. Boring people. I/me feels it has made a decision. Decision was process of thoughts/feelings - a reaction to various stimuli. Once they are on the surface the I/me claims ownership. Staying in with TV is simply giving in to wish for pleasant escape. I/me thinks: Good decision.

Is there a watcher - No, only watching (is this consciousness?) There seems to be a watching process which the I/me wants to take over. Another way of keeping the illusion going.
Witnesser - only witnessing.
Focuser, doer, decider? No.

The above is written in all honesty but there is an eerie sense it is writing itself. It is true and instinctive but without the usual feeling of "yes, this is what I think and believe" because the I is not to be trusted. It is losing its hold. No, it's not. There is no I to lose hold. Am confused - there is less urgency to search. Tiredness. Acceptance of tiredness.

There is nobody looking/searching.
There is looking, searching, wanting to find the truth.
"I" can't search because "I" doesn't exist so the search would be carried out by an illusion - an illusion cannot search.
The looking and wanting are in the mind. They are independent of "me".
If I try to actively to look and search in the everyday sense the result is thoughts, more thoughts, feelings and emotions - while not getting to the truth.
Go with the flow.....

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Daiczech, this one is for you.

Postby Ilona » Thu Oct 20, 2011 4:54 pm

Go with the flow.. There is only flow.
I saw that and it clicked. There is nothing outside the flow.

Have a rest, we will talk tomorrow. Today let this settle in a bit. If you can get out into nature, just spend some time watching how everything is in constant movement and nothing is solid or permanent.




Much love to you.
Truth realized will set you free.
http://ilonaciunaite.com/book

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daiczech
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Re: Daiczech, this one is for you.

Postby daiczech » Fri Oct 21, 2011 8:31 am

Hi, Ilona
Was able to walk into nature in our garden yesterday and saw how plants and flowers have gone into their decline.
Many of them will grow again next Spring and the cycle will continue. Some of their silent acceptance would be a blessing for me.
It's quiet and more calm than usual here (internally) this a.m. There seem to be fewer pressing problems. Also it's becoming possible to leave some questions unanswered and to be unfazed by that.
I'm tied up for and hour or two this a.m. so may be a bit of delay in responding.
Speak to you later.

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daiczech
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Re: Daiczech, this one is for you.

Postby daiczech » Fri Oct 21, 2011 12:39 pm

Back to the keyboard now.
Just went round the garden again trying to look without judgement or interpretation. The mind was labelling almost before things came into sight, followed by a whole chain of thoughts. My efforts didn't help much and just showed how little contol there is over body and mind.
That being the case it must be time for a change, to give up the illusion of "I".
What now, please?

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Re: Daiczech, this one is for you.

Postby Ilona » Fri Oct 21, 2011 1:58 pm

ok, you can not give up illusion of self. and mind is not gonna stop labelling experienced, it's one of it's functions.
so just watch the thoughts like clouds in the sky, just passing by. no point to fight or try to control. one good phrase that really fits here is "this too shall pass"

tell me, is there a 'me' in any shape or form in reality?
Truth realized will set you free.
http://ilonaciunaite.com/book

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daiczech
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Re: Daiczech, this one is for you.

Postby daiczech » Fri Oct 21, 2011 2:37 pm

tell me, is there a 'me' in any shape or form in reality?
In reality there is not.
In illusion there is.
There is the sense of a me - that sense is what it is (real) but the me is not there.
The me/I illusion attaches to whatever it can, as often as it can, but it remains an illusion.
Me is not my body, mind, thoughts, feelings. These are real, changing, impermanent.
Me is not to be found. So it must be a figment of my imagination.
A figment cannot appear in reality, only in fiction or imagination.

The thinking above seems correct and satisfactory but there is no corresponding shift in emotion or intuition. It all remains an abstraction at this moment.

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Ilona
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Daiczech, this one is for you.

Postby Ilona » Fri Oct 21, 2011 5:45 pm

Yes, I see that.
Let's look deeper.

Look directly at that sense that is labelled 'me' and check, is it personal? Can it be located in space? What is it without a label?

Get back to me once properly checked.
:)
Truth realized will set you free.
http://ilonaciunaite.com/book

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Ilona
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Daiczech, this one is for you.

Postby Ilona » Sat Oct 22, 2011 8:39 am

Are you still here?
Truth realized will set you free.
http://ilonaciunaite.com/book

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daiczech
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Re: Daiczech, this one is for you.

Postby daiczech » Sat Oct 22, 2011 10:31 am

Sure am!
You said I should get back to you when properly checked whether "me" is personal, taking up space somewhere and what happens if there is no label.
Working on this was hard but there has been a shift.
I was stuck. The only way forward seemed to be to look straight at the question; Is me personal? Answer came back
"very much so". Instead of working round that, knowing it was the wrong answer, I sat with it and looked at it and the problem started to dissolve. This took a long time. The shift towards it being impersonal is pretty big, more than 50/50.
The questions of whether it can be found in space is "No" and what happens when the label disappears were then much easier. Nothing happens. Father Xmas, daiczech, a unicorn, all react the same way - nothing happens.
This is very encouraging as things were beginning to look pretty grim.
Need to keep up the momentum.
What do you say?

PS It's great that in this forum one can write things as they are, even if a bit weird. Others will understand.

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Re: Daiczech, this one is for you.

Postby Ilona » Sat Oct 22, 2011 3:39 pm

so what is here? what is real?
Truth realized will set you free.
http://ilonaciunaite.com/book

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daiczech
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Re: Daiczech, this one is for you.

Postby daiczech » Sat Oct 22, 2011 4:35 pm

so what is here? what is real?
Lots of things are here, are real - objects of daily life, bodies, minds. The car, a tree, the houses opposite, this PC, these hands, these eyes. And life, nearly forgot, life - it's real

What is not real is "I" or "me"- these are words, thoughts, labels.

It seems easier for me to look at someone else and ask in my mind: where is the real "you" that is not mind or body? It is clear that there isn't a separate "you", a free-standing entity. Why should "I" be different?
When I look inwards now and say "I do not exist. There is no me", there is no longer a panic. But there is a sense of holding on - perhaps what some call a sticky bit.


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