The Beginning of an End... of "Me"... I hope :)

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Re: The Beginning of an End... of "Me"... I hope :)

Postby mag » Tue Aug 07, 2012 6:08 pm

-Are the thoughts, really, encircling a me? I notice the words directly point to this belief in a core self.
Are the words pointing to anything within this circle?
A good pointer. I was looking but couldn't find 'me' around which thoughts would be encircling. I asked myself: Is it true that there is no 'me' center, really? The answer to follow was NOT a definite "yes", but something like "seems true, but should I trust this finding?". I left for an evening walk with much more spaciousness than usually. During the walk, there was a thought that stayed with me frequently: "Life without a center, I can trust it".

The next day (today) the thought "Life without a center" was again frequently with me and there was hardly any "me" thought or feeling felt, much spaciousness. Right now, in the evening, "Life without a center" -feeling is probably there to some extend but not as clear earlier today when it was very fresh. But let me feel for it after completing this message.
And, please entertain the possibility, after looking carefully at the centre that all these thoughts are assumed to encircle, that there is nothing BUT the thoughts. About. Like all thoughts. Could this really be true? Does the evidence so far support that?
Yes, the evidence so far supports this.
-And of course, please consider, does the story and movie and comic of Batman mean the guy is hanging out on a darkened building, brooding? What, if anything, does Mag and Batman share?
Obviously Mag and Batman seem both almost equally fictious entities, but can't say how much more real the former is to latter. During last 24h there was certainly not that great difference.

You had some more questions that felt not so important right now (MY vegetables VS vegetables that are mine etc). Tell me if I should investigate them too.
Thanks for being so faithful and sincere in your inquires, Mag. A pleasure, here. Love, E.
It has been a great delight to converse with you too, Elizabeth! Thank you for great questions, I appreciate...

Love, Mag
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Re: The Beginning of an End... of "Me"... I hope :)

Postby Elizabeth » Tue Aug 07, 2012 6:56 pm

Very nice looking. Life without a center. Funny, that has been uppermost here, also.
Life without the fiction ;-)

The reason to look at the vegetables and their story, or any story, is to again see how that fictional center WILL put itself together again.
Here is how to see that: MY. As you have seen, he function of MY in the narrative, is to throw up a story of a you out of thoughts ABOUT things. Layer enough of those ephemeral possessive thoughts on top of each other, and they start to obscure the clear view. They very persuasively tell a you that there is a center.
'With a single thought, we recreate the world'- Byron Katie.
How amusing that we will continue to fall for it, get hooked into the story, start layering up some 'real' stuff.
But hey, it's just a MY, over nothing at all.
So when it seems less clear , as you said, just check out the thoughts.
Can belief in a thought just be a thought about a thought? Please check.
Then please step back and tell me what is seen. When there is not a self, what is?
Much love, Elizabeth

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Re: The Beginning of an End... of "Me"... I hope :)

Postby mag » Wed Aug 08, 2012 7:16 pm

The reason to look at the vegetables and their story, or any story, is to again see how that fictional center WILL put itself together again.
Oh, yes, I was contemplating on this whole thing of how fictional center is put together and see it now more clearly.

My brother was writing something useful to me in an e-mail: about how we don't really have individual minds, but what we think is ours is just a fusion of minds of our parents / ancestors etc. And he gave some examples in our family. He has said this "no individual mind" -thing before too at occasions, but now it rang bells since I was thinking why are we so easily possessed by our thought process, falling into MY traps of the mind. Mothers and fathers have been whispering their messages in our ears already before we could understand a thing. So, it's a long history here.

I was sitting silently eyes closed for some 45 minutes and recognized some other persons' (parents etc) minds talking there (I'm not a schizophrenic though :) . I also thought that even if I have done much formal meditations of many kinds, there has been not enough simple observation meditation to learn about thoughts and their origins. This process is useful for shaking the MY mind belief. After all, the mind comes before the thought, right.

A good advice that I have heard: "don't believe your thoughts". I have been believing in them more than what was acknowledged before.
Here is how to see that: MY. As you have seen, he function of MY in the narrative, is to throw up a story of a you out of thoughts ABOUT things. Layer enough of those ephemeral possessive thoughts on top of each other, and they start to obscure the clear view. They very persuasively tell a you that there is a center.
A nice way of putting it.
So when it seems less clear , as you said, just check out the thoughts.
Yes, that's what is needed, checking the thoughts, and then just staying with that which is real.
Can belief in a thought just be a thought about a thought? Please check. Then please step back and tell me what is seen. When there is not a self, what is?
Excellent questions you posed. Let me take a moment to contemplate on these and reply in a moment. Don't want to be hasty with these ones. The first seems like a koan that could open some doors. You don't need to write more before I have answered those two too.

Love, Mag
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Re: The Beginning of an End... of "Me"... I hope :)

Postby Elizabeth » Wed Aug 08, 2012 8:12 pm

Well, OK, if you are determined to be low maintenance :-), I'll be quiet.
Much love, E

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Re: The Beginning of an End... of "Me"... I hope :)

Postby mag » Thu Aug 09, 2012 6:09 pm

Can belief in a thought just be a thought about a thought? Please check.
I'm not sure if I were able to fully grasp this one. This brain didn't bend maybe because of some linguistic reason. But regardless whether it's a single thought, belief in thought (in general), or a belief in a thought (particular), it's all just same "thought" -stuff. Not real. Don't want to get too much involved with that :-)
Then please step back and tell me what is seen. When there is not a self, what is?
Reality, Being, This.

Love, Mag
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Re: The Beginning of an End... of "Me"... I hope :)

Postby Elizabeth » Thu Aug 09, 2012 8:55 pm

Mag, a little more on the koan.
"Is belief just another thought, ABOUT a thought?"
Let's separate knowing something, from a belief ABOUT something.
As far as we know, if we reach our hand out and pick up a cup, drink from it, put it down, is the cup real?
Do we spend a single thought, as we reach for it, wondering it it's real or imagined? Does it need some kind of proof of existence?
Now contrast this with a MY cup, and a MY life. Do we need to tell ourselves a story and then believe it, to make this a MY cup, or a MY life? I think we've covered that, but we can revisit it.

The difference between knowing and believing is critical for this next bit.
Knowing is unmistakable, and where we are going with this. And it simply takes one look to KNOW if there is a self, or all thought ABOUT a self. Though we've spent years referring to a self, we are having a surprisingly hard time pinning one down. Lot of beliefs ABOUT a mental construct are easy to find.

So, Reality, Being, This.
Are they known? What is that like?

Much love, Elizabeth

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Re: The Beginning of an End... of "Me"... I hope :)

Postby mag » Fri Aug 10, 2012 8:58 pm

Hi Elizabeth,
"Is belief just another thought, ABOUT a thought?"
Let's separate knowing something, from a belief ABOUT something.
Yes, that's very important to distinguish.
As far as we know, if we reach our hand out and pick up a cup, drink from it, put it down, is the cup real?
Yes, in a relative sense.... as is this physical body real. Who knows whether they are 'real' from the ultimate perspective.
Do we spend a single thought, as we reach for it, wondering it it's real or imagined? Does it need some kind of proof of existence?
No, direct sensory perception validates it as real (in a relative sense).
Now contrast this with a MY cup, and a MY life. Do we need to tell ourselves a story and then believe it, to make this a MY cup, or a MY life? I think we've covered that, but we can revisit it.
No, we don't need these stories for any purpose.
The difference between knowing and believing is critical for this next bit.
Knowing is unmistakable, and where we are going with this. And it simply takes one look to KNOW if there is a self, or all thought ABOUT a self. Though we've spent years referring to a self, we are having a surprisingly hard time pinning one down. Lot of beliefs ABOUT a mental construct are easy to find.
You're very right here.
So, Reality, Being, This.
Are they known? What is that like?
I made a question to myself: Is it known for sure that a self doesn't exist? Yes or no? Looking:

Eyes closed: a self not found.
Body still, eyes open: a self not found
Body in move, eyes open: a self not found
Body in move, eyes closed: a self not found
Talking with a person: a self not found
Typing on a computer: a self not found

No a self was found. A self never existed, but only a thought or many that were identified with. A self can't form if there is no identification mechanism in place. There's no identification when there's no belief in any thought appearing. All thoughts are 'false', not real. It's obvious that there is no a self.

Love, Mag
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Re: The Beginning of an End... of "Me"... I hope :)

Postby mag » Fri Aug 10, 2012 9:19 pm

So, Reality, Being, This.
Are they known? What is that like?
Forgot to answer the latter part "What is that like".

It's just many forms of -ing: feet moving, hands scratching, hands washing dishes, fingers typing, head turning, mind thinking, heart pulsing, lungs breathing, nails / hair/ plants / trees growing. Life happening on its own, no involvement.

Mag
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Re: The Beginning of an End... of "Me"... I hope :)

Postby Elizabeth » Fri Aug 10, 2012 9:25 pm

Well done! Straight at it.
More areas to explore:

-Should anything change when a separate self is seen as illusion?

-How does this stack up next to any expectations or thoughts about awakening and enlightenment?

Responses here should include any or all of the expectations and thoughts entertained before we began this process, as we've found that immediate, visceral responses to seeing the mechanism are extremely useful to look at here. For example, is it funny? Humbling? Disappointing, and not as advertised? Thoughts, beliefs, expectations, are the stuff that dreams are made of, and we are in the awakening business. Let's make sure you get as clear as possible.
Much love, Elizabeth

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Re: The Beginning of an End... of "Me"... I hope :)

Postby mag » Fri Aug 10, 2012 9:57 pm

-Should anything change when a separate self is seen as illusion?
Everything is pretty much the same. Just no agitation of seeking anything anymore, this is enough. Feeling of "everything is fine", life taking care of itself, I am beyond life and death.
-How does this stack up next to any expectations or thoughts about awakening and enlightenment?
It's so plain :-) My expectations were not that high, but this is even more plain, but very satisfactory too. The peace of centerless living is much more valuable than any passing exalted feelings experienced through a fictious self.

Love & blessings, Mag
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Re: The Beginning of an End... of "Me"... I hope :)

Postby Elizabeth » Fri Aug 10, 2012 10:22 pm

You have quite described it, yes, that's it. Welcome home!

I think the 'how does it feel to be awake" part is answered, and a few more questions. For other guides to look at, but even more, to see what gets said now.

1) Is there a you, at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form?

2) Explain in detail, for future reference when self pops up, what the self is and how it works.

3) And, because guides are always looking for tips :-), how would you describe this odd process to somebody who has never heard about no-self?

Looking forward to the answers, as always.
Love, Elizabeth

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Re: The Beginning of an End... of "Me"... I hope :)

Postby mag » Sat Aug 11, 2012 6:02 am

You have quite described it, yes, that's it. Welcome home!
Thank you!
1) Is there a you, at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form?
No, there is no a me, that sense of self as there used to be. Even when it was there in the past and felt real in this character's life, it was not real, but a fiction, a thought form. There is no me, although the body-mind keeps running its programs.
2) Explain in detail, for future reference when self pops up, what the self is and how it works.
A self is formed after identification happens with a thought. Identification happens because thoughts are considered real and a sense of self forms around one thought or a bunch of them. Identification stops when no thoughts are no anymore believed to be true. A self is formed in early childhood to guarantee that individual develops sufficient skills to cope in the world. After its basic function is over, it's unnecessary, but we just don't see a way out of it. The way out of it, is just recognizing that a self is a fiction and was not there ever in any other form than as a thought.
3) And, because guides are always looking for tips :-), how would you describe this odd process to somebody who has never heard about no-self?
Each of us have, all the time, have a clear and unobscured view to the world through these eyes that we are looking right now. The mistake is to put a label (your name) on the view and live accordingly. The process to clear the view is to find out what and where are your ME's and MY'S and disidentify from those. Disidentification happens by knowing that thoughts are not real. A simple observation of thoughts eyes closed as a regular practice can be really helpful for seeing the absurdity of thoughts and thus leading to accept their unrealness. After the process is over, you look at the world again like a child, simply, innocently, without a mental layer in between you and the world. The false sense of self is not formed anymore while interacting in the world, but one stays in the centerless being. The mystery of the universe is felt and cherished, if earlier there was much knowledge about many things, now it's just unknowingness. There is no rush to get anywhere, nothing to be shame of (one's body, behaviour, unintelligence etc), no one can make their beliefs yours because you don't cling to any thought.

Much Love, Mag
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Re: The Beginning of an End... of "Me"... I hope :)

Postby Elizabeth » Sat Aug 11, 2012 12:45 pm

Good morning, Mag.
I hope it's had a little more time to settle. Another guide has asked me to pose two more questions, if you are up for it.
-How does it feel now? (Always a great thing to ask whenever you have a moment, go directly into experience)

-What gave you the final push? (It varies, so interesting!)

Much love, Elizabeth

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Re: The Beginning of an End... of "Me"... I hope :)

Postby mag » Sat Aug 11, 2012 6:35 pm

I hope it's had a little more time to settle.
Another guide has asked me to pose two more questions, if you are up for it.
Sure!
-How does it feel now? (Always a great thing to ask whenever you have a moment, go directly into experience)
It feels very, very ordinary. No any interest to inform others about "having arrived". There's relieved feelings about the end of seeking. Curiosity how this all unfolds. It will be interesting to go through many daily situations and see how the mind considers different options now without a self. There is certainly a wider spectrum of options to choose from and that will make life richer in many ways.
-What gave you the final push? (It varies, so interesting!)
I have had glimpses of this kind of selfless being in the past too, but it never stayed longer than a limited period of time. Identification with the mind creeped in for whatever reason before the final push had a chance to occur. This time, the systematic process and careful questioning ensured there was no back door left open, the mind had nowhere to escape and accepted its lot. Understanding of the identification process and not takings thoughts as real was an important part of the process.

In the office I was working with one last big identification: the publicly projected professional "me" was about to face a failure in a task. I wrote some imagined dialogues with me and my supervisor in my journal. I decided not to care a bit even if all that realizes (it didn't). The grasping to work and professionalism "me" was gone.

But the final push. I think it was your question "Are the thoughts, really, encircling a me?" after which I left for an evening walk and the centerless living was there to stay.

Much Love, Blessings, Gratitude,

Henri
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Re: The Beginning of an End... of "Me"... I hope :)

Postby Elizabeth » Sat Aug 11, 2012 10:31 pm

Thank you, Henri. Others have looked at this and no more questions.
Deepest peace and love to you.
I'll PM and see if you would like to join a facebook group for more discussion, sometimes it helps to know that the experience is shared, if it gets sticky again. Not many get the entire human component blown out immediately. Which seems gentle.
And you are free to PM me or any one of the guides, and look around parts of the forum, as the need or desire arises.
A pleasure.
Elizabeth


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