Help please

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Re: Help please

Postby Profilific » Thu Aug 02, 2012 2:55 pm

So is the separate self just a thought? And sense of self just a sense arising because of long time conditioning?
Except in thoughts and vague feeling is there anything else pointing to existence of self?
There is also a stillness happening whenever the self is looked through.
Isn't that peace sign of resting in truth without belief in separate self?
Sometimes a thought of self arises but it's quickly seen as unnecessary. But it keeps arising.
Thoughts arise, come and go, do you have any control of it? Except to be examined as you did.
My actualy experience right now: depression (as sensation) arising in solar plexus
What would be depression if it wouldn't be labeled as depression? If the sensations would be just felt as they are?

You don't need to rush. Take your time to relax and observe the actual experiencing.
The seperate self is just a thought. And the sense of self is arising. Probably because of long time conditioning.
There is nothing pointing to a self except in thoughts and feelings except maybe the body, but that's because there are thoughts identifying with the body.

That peace is happening when the self is being seen through.

"I" don't have any control over thoughts.
WHen the label of depression was dropped it seemed to just be sensation.

I tried to do more looking today again and intense fear arose in my chest when I started to unravel the self more and more.
The observer seems to be thoughts centering around the head. I try to look for one but I can only find a sense of one, and thoughts and sensation.

I try to look for the one who searches but noone can be found.
Frustration comes up because identification happens with the self again and again but I can't find the one who is frustrated.

Will this process continue to unfold with an "I" that needs to investigate these things? Because when the identification with the self happens, the peace doesn't seem to appear and it seems to be, again, a solid self there, but when I look, it's not there. But will this start to happen automatically?

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Re: Help please

Postby Eloratea » Thu Aug 02, 2012 3:44 pm

I tried to do more looking today again and intense fear arose in my chest when I started to unravel the self more and more.
It is ok. It is one of the common reactions. Regard fear as a protection mechanism protecting discovering of imaginary self. Let it be felt.
The observer seems to be thoughts centering around the head. I try to look for one but I can only find a sense of one, and thoughts and sensation.
Yes, no more than that.
I try to look for the one who searches but no one can be found.
Frustration comes up because identification happens with the self again and again but I can't find the one who is frustrated.
There isn't one. It is like an onion. Layers of conditioning and habitual behavior and thinking, with nothing solid in the center. Feel the frustration too. Is there anything solid in frustration either?
Will this process continue to unfold with an "I" that needs to investigate these things? Because when the identification with the self happens, the peace doesn't seem to appear and it seems to be, again, a solid self there, but when I look, it's not there. But will this start to happen automatically?
Don't chase peace or anything. Just look what is already true here right now. Upon more and more looking perception changes. But leave expectations aside.
You can take some still time to observe how thoughts come and go. How actions unfold. When walking outside, do the same; watch life flow around. See if there are many separate selfs around or it is just one seamless experience which than with help of thoughts turns into all kind of personal stories :).

Best wishes.

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Re: Help please

Postby Profilific » Thu Aug 02, 2012 10:03 pm

No I can't find anything solid in any of that. The 'observer' remains. I quess this may be somewhat what Suzanne Segal wrote about her first depersonalized experience. Identification occurs sometimes, sometimes not.

Actions seem to happen and thoughts are added as an 'afterthought' so to speak. There doesn't seem to be a solid self, but fear of where to go if the self disappears, where is the center then? I guess the answer is "vastness" or something, but fear remains.

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Re: Help please

Postby Eloratea » Fri Aug 03, 2012 8:38 am

The 'observer' remains.
Isn't the observer also kind of label for the process of observing, awareness?
Identification occurs sometimes, sometimes not.
yes, till it doesn't.
Actions seem to happen and thoughts are added as an 'afterthought' so to speak.
Yes.
There doesn't seem to be a solid self, but fear of where to go if the self disappears,
wow, what disappears? If there is no self, there is nothing to disappear. Just to recognize things as they are and go further with the flow.
where is the center then? I guess the answer is "vastness" or something, but fear remains.
Here courage and honest are needed to continue looking, without need to cover truth with some new concepts; To have trust and jump into the unknown.

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Re: Help please

Postby Profilific » Fri Aug 03, 2012 11:09 am

I was reading a blogpost from Llona and in it she wrote to someone that labels point to things. Tree points to tree, dog to dog etc. But what does I point to? And then it occured that the I thought only points to itself. Its like a big conspiracy, whats implicit in the thought I is that there is a real self it points to but when you look, its simply not there. Stuff comes up, lOoking for a self to hook onto but isnt there anymore.

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Re: Help please

Postby Eloratea » Fri Aug 03, 2012 11:32 am

Right.
and where does that leave us?

Is there you in any, way, shape or form? Was there ever?
Or it was always just this - Life, awareness...?

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Re: Help please

Postby Profilific » Sat Aug 04, 2012 9:04 am

Right.
and where does that leave us?

Is there you in any, way, shape or form? Was there ever?
Or it was always just this - Life, awareness...?

I'd have to say no, it wasn't. There's doubt though ("I"''ve been a very worrying person), if it's real or it if it will sticketc.
What is, is. Thoughts are, sensations are, sounds are, the label I is, but no solid self, no entity can't be found.

Maybe I need a couple of days to let it sink in and I might have clearer answers then.

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Re: Help please

Postby Eloratea » Sat Aug 04, 2012 12:07 pm

There's doubt though ("I"''ve been a very worrying person)
Person is like an onion. Lots of layers but nothing solid, nothing real in the core.
Maybe I need a couple of days to let it sink in and I might have clearer answers then.
Good, let it sink in. Keep looking around with this new insight.

Till later.

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Re: Help please

Postby Profilific » Tue Aug 07, 2012 9:50 am

Ok, I think I got it. But as I have OCD and a really worriying personality, there is great doubt that the self hasn't been seen through. These are just thoughts and feelings though.
I know the body has been seen through though. Well, it seems like that anyway. When I look down when I'm walking, it looks almost like a foreign body walking and it looks a bit funny too be honest. The same with my arms. Sometimes it seems like they are claws on long mechanical arms reaching out to grab things.
Maybe if you ask me some questions and I try to answer them intuivetly, not from my anxious filled thoughts. I don't really know.

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Re: Help please

Postby Eloratea » Tue Aug 07, 2012 10:39 am

Things may seem odd in the beginning but than the life unfolds naturally. As it always did actually. It is just one belief less.
I don't know much about OCD so I also don't know how it may combine with this.
Just feel what feels right and true. Does the outlook on life with or without self fits better? Don't force anything.

Here are some typical questions you may answer if and when you feel ready. Or let me know if there are some other specific doubts and confusions.
  • What is illusion of separate self and how does it work?
    How would you describe it to someone who never heard about it?
    What made you see it and how does it feel?
Best wishes.

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Re: Help please

Postby Profilific » Tue Aug 07, 2012 11:48 am

Things may seem odd in the beginning but than the life unfolds naturally. As it always did actually. It is just one belief less.
I don't know much about OCD so I also don't know how it may combine with this.
Just feel what feels right and true. Does the outlook on life with or without self fits better? Don't force anything.

Here are some typical questions you may answer if and when you feel ready. Or let me know if there are some other specific doubts and confusions.
  • What is illusion of separate self and how does it work?
    How would you describe it to someone who never heard about it?
    What made you see it and how does it feel?
Best wishes.
What is illusion of separate self and how does it work?
It starts with the belief I. It's a thought that we put onto other things. Implicit in the thought I is that I exists. So if the there is a belief that a self exists, everything is going to be seen through that lense. Intepretated as either belonging to an I or seen by an I. But when seen clearly, one sees they it does not exist as a solid entity, only as seperate thoughts and sensations that when seen unclearly comes together to form the illusion of self. Thus the belief in a self unravels.

How would you describe it to someone who never heard about it?
The illusion of self? I first would try to explain that reality is "neutral" (not even that though). That things aren't good or bad objectively. They are just our thoughts, our intepretation of reality. And also that the thought of a tree is not a tree. A thought about something is not the actual something. Then I'd say, you have the thought I, the thought "I am [name]". They are used like words about "objective" things, they are used as a way to convey information about something, but they are only pointers to the real thing, they are not the real thing. And it's the same with the thought and belief in I. It points to something, but what does it point to? If you look for it, you'll see that it's just a mirage, there is noone there. Does a thought think? Does a sensation feel? Can a sense of something think? So who is thinking? Does thought just happen? Then there's the question if you need some skills (I come from mindfulness meditation) in order for one to see this, but that is another question.

What made you see it and how does it feel?
I think I got started onto this path with mindfulness meditation, and that started slowly to unravel this. But it was first when I ran across LU that I REALLY started to look into the subject. I had done it before somewhat but when I really started look, I became afraid and realized that I probably hadn't looked at it as hard as I thought. One of the big realizations was when I saw what Llona wrote about thoughts pointing to things but what does the I thought point to? And also that senations, thoughts etc can't think, so what does think? It doesn't really feel like anything. It may be that feelings happen in response to the realization, but those are just passing sensations. Some of those were joyous feelings etc.


There is a sense of self still there. Does that mean that the illusion haven't been seen through? And it also seems that "awareness" also sticks to things. That awareness (well, awareness is nothing but the form it takes) still sticks to the thought I and that the these words seem to be written through the lense I. If realization has occured, will it still exist a sense of self that there still seems to be an identification with, even when you are "aware" so to speak "not on autopilot".

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Re: Help please

Postby Eloratea » Tue Aug 07, 2012 2:05 pm

There is a sense of self still there.
If you zoom in that sense, is it sense of self, or just sense of being, awareness?
Looking into the experience again and again, looking into -what's looking- will eventually dissolve the sense of contraction of isolated personal „I“.
Seeing it once for what it is it can't be unseen, but yes identification still may happen, and thoughts may arise as a kind of residue of belief in personal self.

But is there any doubt about the nature and reality of separate self? Honestly.

Regards!

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Re: Help please

Postby Profilific » Tue Aug 07, 2012 2:39 pm

There is a sense of self still there.
If you zoom in that sense, is it sense of self, or just sense of being, awareness?
Looking into the experience again and again, looking into -what's looking- will eventually dissolve the sense of contraction of isolated personal „I“.
Seeing it once for what it is it can't be unseen, but yes identification still may happen, and thoughts may arise as a kind of residue of belief in personal self.

But is there any doubt about the nature and reality of separate self? Honestly.

Regards!
It would be sense of self.

But, as I was looking really hard and focusing on that sense of self, while I was making dinner, it seemed like there was suddenly a blip and things, for a fraction of a second, seemed to carry on without any me there, no sense of self (I think, it was so fast). What was that?

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Re: Help please

Postby Eloratea » Tue Aug 07, 2012 2:48 pm

It would be sense of self.
And if there is no self, what is it than? :)
There are still some doubts?
it seemed like there was suddenly a blip and things, for a fraction of a second, seemed to carry on without any me there, no sense of self (I think, it was so fast). What was that?
Enlightenment :), glimpse into reality, but nothing to be chased, just allowed to reveal when it needs to.

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Re: Help please

Postby Profilific » Tue Aug 07, 2012 5:53 pm

It would be sense of self.
And if there is no self, what is it than? :)
There are still some doubts?
it seemed like there was suddenly a blip and things, for a fraction of a second, seemed to carry on without any me there, no sense of self (I think, it was so fast). What was that?
Enlightenment :), glimpse into reality, but nothing to be chased, just allowed to reveal when it needs to.

Can enligthenment be that quick? Just a tiny fraction like that?

I'll answer your question tomorrow when I've let this sink in for a bit.


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