Hi there

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Bill
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Re: Hi there

Postby Bill » Thu Jul 19, 2012 5:32 am

Wow! Jonathan... you've seen!
I'm surprised its this early.
I have seen analyzers take a long long time...
to finally let go of the idea that they could think their way to this.
That's really good. You must have let go of something big.

Here's what my good friend Liz wrote to one of her people just today,
how fitting it is for you right now:

Ah, they warned us of this. You receive for awakening: Absolutely Nothing.
They, the ones who have gone before, were not kidding.
It's a shock to the meaning-making system.
It reverberates.
It tries to race the engine of meaning-manufacture. It sticks ME ME ME all over the thought landscape.
It's disturbing.
But you have seen it, and however disappointing it is to identity, that's it.

Yes, this is so damn simple and easy. We can't grasp its this simple.
I've been saying something like, "There's no I, just what's going on"
and a good friend of mine shortened it... "No I, just this".
Thats it. In a nutshell. Really!
Nothing to get. Nothing to really understand.
Just a letting go.

Yes there's just a subtle shift. Some people do have some fireworks or a heart opening feeling.
Spacious, open, freeing. A definite relaxing of this search. We know deeply there are no
ultimate answers. Just life. flowing. As it is. As it always has been. Even when we weren't
awake at all.
There is no I, the 'I' we conventionally use is a label that is supposed to give meaning to the collection of thoughts, feelings, memories, habits that just are. When I try to see the 'owner' of these things, there is nothing to be found. I see that now, but there's still a gap for me.. what is it that needs to be recognized as 'I' or 'self'? I can see that there's nothing there, but is the wanting to label it purely based in thought? Does the thinking feel the need to construct a thinker? I'm sorry if I'm going in circles here.
So go ahead and answer your own question here. Give it your best shot.
I have no doubt you have the answer that you want already.
This is actually pretty unsettling for me to be honest. Getting a glimpse of the truth just by looking makes me question what it is I've been doing and looking for for these past few years. It's definitely not what I expected, but not necessarily in a bad way. I think this last part of your post gave me the answer to my question above. The wanting to label as 'I' or 'self' is based in thinking, which makes it just a thought and not something that thinks. It's a harsh reality check, thank God I didn't expect it to be like a warm shower, smelling like roses and magically be freed from every fear and limiting belief I have, because then I would be really disappointed. This is good, it's honest and it's true.
Haha. you've been doing what everyone thinks they should do. Read books like the Secret and all that
kind of stuff instead of really LOOKING. We all did it. We thought we had to GET something, when the
truth is we had this all along. It's been right in front of our noses our whole life.
How could we really know it was this simple?
Sorry. We're not going to give you your money back! No refunds here.

Just be with this for awhile and come back and tell what its like for you.
Let me know if there's anything unresolved.

I'm very happy for you!

Bill

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vallorus
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Re: Hi there

Postby vallorus » Thu Jul 19, 2012 11:40 pm

So go ahead and answer your own question here. Give it your best shot.
I have no doubt you have the answer that you want already.
There's a chain reaction going on with me right now, the pure fact that I desired to let go of the 'I' and getting a glimpse of the truth made 'my' thoughts go in all-out defense. There are a lot of concepts that I need to let go of and that only feeds that unsettling feeling I was talking about. And although the need to fall back into (spiritual) concepts I have picked up over the years is starting to slowly fade (maybe fade is not the right word, more like doesn't latch on as frequently anymore), the fear of letting go of those concepts is ever present.

I see now that everything is, it's flowing and I see the concept of flow and going with it much clearer now. The decisions we seem to make are an illusion, because our direction was already set, the distinction between two options is thought-based and therefore also an illusion. Every deliberate action and choice, we are conscious of after it already happened, which gives a false sense of control. And to answer my own question, life/consciousness just is and while it already is, thoughts gives it a sense of self, which is thought-based and therefore yet another illusion...
Just be with this for awhile and come back and tell what its like for you.
Let me know if there's anything unresolved
It's just such a shock to my belief system that I definitely need some time to regroup, although just writing here seems to help. I don't share your enthusiasm quite yet, cause it doesn't feel real to me yet for some reason. Everything seems to fit, but these realizations are so confronting that there's a part of me that secretly wants to go back to the illusion, but I can't because I know the truth now.

I still can't see what consciousness really is... In these last few days I have been a witness to thoughts, feelings, a body.. I saw that they just are, no controlling entity, no self. Yet the role of the witness is without a doer as well if there is no controlling entity. So witnessing and seeing just is, no witness and seeer. There is no connective tissue that holds all of it together. Then what is consciousness? I know it just is, yet I can't seem to grasp it. Is the mere fact that life flows and these words are being typed proof that consciousness is?

Thanks a lot Bill, you've helped me so much in these last few days and I'd like to continue working with you for a while until all of this starts to sink in. Please keep asking me questions and keep me focused, it's exactly the approach I need

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Bill
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Re: Hi there

Postby Bill » Fri Jul 20, 2012 7:15 am

I see now that everything is, it's flowing and I see the concept of flow and going with it much clearer now. The decisions we seem to make are an illusion, because our direction was already set, the distinction between two options is thought-based and therefore also an illusion. Every deliberate action and choice, we are conscious of after it already happened, which gives a false sense of control. And to answer my own question, life/consciousness just is and while it already is, thoughts gives it a sense of self, which is thought-based and therefore yet another illusion...
Wow! So clear.
It's just such a shock to my belief system that I definitely need some time to regroup, although just writing here seems to help. I don't share your enthusiasm quite yet, cause it doesn't feel real to me yet for some reason. Everything seems to fit, but these realizations are so confronting that there's a part of me that secretly wants to go back to the illusion, but I can't because I know the truth now.
Yes, this is not something that can be unseen. The shock will wear off though.
I still can't see what consciousness really is... In these last few days I have been a witness to thoughts, feelings, a body.. I saw that they just are, no controlling entity, no self. Yet the role of the witness is without a doer as well if there is no controlling entity. So witnessing and seeing just is, no witness and seeer. There is no connective tissue that holds all of it together. Then what is consciousness? I know it just is, yet I can't seem to grasp it. Is the mere fact that life flows and these words are being typed proof that consciousness is?
Of course no one knows for sure, but consciousness simply is. It doesn't seem to be generated by anything. It is not really produced. it is unborn. it is not really describable. yet, it is naturally present everywhere.
What's your take on it?
Thanks a lot Bill, you've helped me so much in these last few days and I'd like to continue working with you for a while until all of this starts to sink in. Please keep asking me questions and keep me focused, it's exactly the approach I need

Jonathan - is there a 'you' that exists?

How would you help someone who is holding on to that last bit of self?
What would you tell them?

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vallorus
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Re: Hi there

Postby vallorus » Sat Jul 21, 2012 1:10 am

Of course no one knows for sure, but consciousness simply is. It doesn't seem to be generated by anything. It is not really produced. it is unborn. it is not really describable. yet, it is naturally present everywhere.
What's your take on it?
I don't really know.. when I try to describe consciousness, it's like trying to describe water. It flows, can take a lot of shapes and forms and it's essential to life, yet you can't really describe it, only it's characteristics. It's also something that is not referred to as a possession. I have feelings, I have thoughts, I have a body, yet I am conscious. It's another seperate thing, yet it feels like the closest thing to a connective tissue I can *think* of, but I don't really wanna think in those terms anymore. Everything is, yet consciousness seems to have a different status. I'm gonna let this one sit for a while, although I know an answer is not needed.
Jonathan - is there a 'you' that exists?

How would you help someone who is holding on to that last bit of self?
What would you tell them?
There is no 'you' that exists, only a label that is formed in thought to give a sense of seperation as an individual, yet everything is and it's not yours or mine, it just is. It is said that we are all connected, which is only a half-truth... because the truth is that there was never seperation in the first place.

If I needed to help someone let go of that last bit of self, I think I would ask them to describe themselves. Then I would take that list, take it one at a time and ask them: "then are you your (thoughts/feelings/body/habits/culture)?"
They will see that in the end there is nothing left, which either means that it's something you can't possibly fathom, or that there simply is no self. And both options mean that it's something you can't see if you try to look for it.

I still have some unresolved things, but I don't know if it's suitable for this process to keep hammering on them, because this is only meant for seeing through the illusion. I don't know whether I'm liberated yet, it all feels so surreal at the moment..

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Bill
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Re: Hi there

Postby Bill » Sat Jul 21, 2012 7:23 am

Yes let's not worry about the definition of consciousness. Haha. I think they've been debating that one
for centuries without a clear agreed upon definition.
And the truth is, who cares?
These are the kind of traps that people fall into before coming in here.
We see that that kind of understanding is not really where its at.
Its just knowing ABOUT something.
After a while it gets boring to me as I know doesn't really matter.
There is no 'you' that exists, only a label that is formed in thought to give a sense of seperation as an individual, yet everything is and it's not yours or mine, it just is. It is said that we are all connected, which is only a half-truth... because the truth is that there was never seperation in the first place.

If I needed to help someone let go of that last bit of self, I think I would ask them to describe themselves. Then I would take that list, take it one at a time and ask them: "then are you your (thoughts/feelings/body/habits/culture)?"
They will see that in the end there is nothing left, which either means that it's something you can't possibly fathom, or that there simply is no self. And both options mean that it's something you can't see if you try to look for it.

I still have some unresolved things, but I don't know if it's suitable for this process to keep hammering on them, because this is only meant for seeing through the illusion. I don't know whether I'm liberated yet, it all feels so surreal at the moment..
Very good Jonathan. Excellent work here.
We do have a very good facebook group with several sub groups for dealing with life things post-gate.
Once you're through, we will invite you in all those you care to join.
You might find some help in dealing with these issues.
Or at least a place to discuss them.

You are right, this is strictly to see the illusion of the self.
It looks to me you've done that.
You see that I is just a thought.

What's next is our final questions we ask everyone.
Other guides will take a look to see if anything needs further clarification.

Please let me know if you're ready for them of if you'd like more inquiry here.

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vallorus
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Re: Hi there

Postby vallorus » Sat Jul 21, 2012 12:51 pm

What's next is our final questions we ask everyone.
Other guides will take a look to see if anything needs further clarification.

Please let me know if you're ready for them of if you'd like more inquiry here.
I'm ready Bill!

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Bill
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Location: Pacific NW, USA

Re: Hi there

Postby Bill » Sat Jul 21, 2012 3:01 pm

OK Jonathan. Answer these fully. Take your time....


1) Is there a 'me', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works.

3) How does it feel to see this?

4) How would you describe it to somebody who has never heard about this illusion.

5)What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

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vallorus
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Re: Hi there

Postby vallorus » Sat Jul 21, 2012 8:54 pm

1) Is there a 'me', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?
There is no 'me' if you refer to it as a puppetmaster, someone behind the scenes controlling every move and thinking the thoughts. It's a label that is the product of thought, a way to take possession of thoughts, feelings and a body. That's all it ever was and all it will ever be, a possessive thought. The 'I' exists only in the mind.
2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works.
The illusion of separate self is that people identify with the desire and the thought that we are all seperate individuals on this planet. We feel in control of 'our' thoughts, emotions, habits, memories and body, yet all of those things aren't yours or mine, they simply are. We make them our own through possessive thought, and through that we build a multi-layered identity that is purely based in the mind. Yet when asked to look at that what holds of all that together, there's nothing to see and when truly looking you will find that there's no such thing as 'my' thought, just thought that you afterwards call your own. The seperate self is something that is conventional, something that has been fed since our birth, simply because our parents started to call us by our given name and soon the thought and desire to be an individual was embraced.
3) How does it feel to see this?
It makes sense, there is an inner knowing of this truth, simply because it is based on my own observation. It's still scary nonetheless, and sometimes I wish I could go back to the illusion, but I can't. I've read about it, heard about it, but once you actually see it, it's a different kind of eye-opening. Not an aha-moment when you read something that resonates with you, but more like an in-your-face kind of confrontation with the truth. I have to admit that at the very moment I saw it, it felt more confining that liberating, but I now see how this truth fits into my life and every day it's going better in dealing with it.
4) How would you describe it to somebody who has never heard about this illusion.
Having had my eyes opened for maybe 2 or 3 days now, I think I would describe it to other people as being attached to everything you think is part of your identity. I always try to steer away from spiritual concepts when discussing things like this and when talking to someone who doesn't have an extensive background in spiritual practice and/or spiritual self-development, I think that about sums it up. The illusion of separate self is thinking you own all of your thoughts, feelings, habits and body and having one or more of those things compromised would then automatically make you less of a person in that mindset. That attachment in itself is real, but you are not attached, because there is no you to be attached to anything.
5)What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?
The exercise where I had to look at my everyday activities and see if there was a controlling entity was the final push for me. Observing my activities, and only being able to see the process, but not the one doing it was the missing link for me. That was the last dot that needed connecting and since then everything about this made sense. There were no theories anymore that I could come up with to let me stay in the illusion.

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Bill
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Re: Hi there

Postby Bill » Sun Jul 22, 2012 2:29 pm

Great job Jonathan,

You've been confirmed by the other guides.
You're now blue in color on the forum.

I invite you to the FB Unleashed group, which is a form of aftercare and discussion.
I think its a place you could bring up your other concerns that you still have....you decide.
There are a couple other FB groups we have for discussion that you also might be interested in.
And also there is guiding others should you choose to do that.
There's a bit more of the website available to you now.
Just poke around, you'll see it.

Here is a page now that you are blue on the forum to check out.
the first part of it concerns the closed facebook group, email me with
your facebook name to the address given and we'll get you in there.

http://liberationunleashed.com/nation/v ... ?f=6&t=696

Lots of info there on all the groups, etc.
Let us know if there's anything more needed.
Look for you on Facebook Unleashed.

If there's any more questions, or anything else, please ask.
It does take time for this to settle out.
Don't be surprised if the 'I' makes a resurgence....its normal.
You can always LOOK again at any time to see what's true.
I will leave this thread open for awhile.
It's been great working with you!

Namaste,
Bill

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vallorus
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Re: Hi there

Postby vallorus » Sun Jul 22, 2012 9:36 pm

Hi Bill,

It's been a privilige working with you as my guide, thank you so much for your time and effort.

I sent you a message on Facebook, I'm sure our paths will cross again in the future!

All the best,

Jonathan

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Bill
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Re: Hi there

Postby Bill » Mon Jul 23, 2012 5:47 am

Thank you Jonathan

No message received on FB.
Check the address in the page referenced in the link above and send another message.
Yes, we'll be talking...
Great working with you.
It was a pleasure.

Bill


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