Enlighten me if you can! :-)

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Freddy
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Re: Enlighten me if you can! :-)

Postby Freddy » Tue Jul 17, 2012 5:01 pm

am on the chat now...

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Nick
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Re: Enlighten me if you can! :-)

Postby Nick » Tue Jul 17, 2012 5:44 pm

From the chatroom:

Nick] 12:02 pm: hey fred, i haven't used this chat before so hopefully we're in the same room?
[Freddy] 12:02 pm: yep I'm here
[Freddy] 12:02 pm: well, so to pseak
[Freddy] 12:02 pm: lol
[Nick] 12:02 pm: cool, so whats going on RIGHT NOW?
[Freddy] 12:03 pm: just reading your last posts... I understand where this is pointing to... seems clrea and straightforward enough!
[Freddy] 12:03 pm: right now, looking, looking and typing
[Nick] 12:04 pm: yes nothing special lol. its funny "you" and "me" on opposite sides of the world, but words and ideas flowing together, no separation there.
[Freddy] 12:04 pm:
[Freddy] 12:05 pm: this will be seen sooner or later
[Freddy] 12:05 pm: I know it
[Freddy] 12:05 pm: it's gonna hit "me" soon
[Freddy] 12:05 pm: what do you do in life bro?
[Nick] 12:06 pm: in life i'm a doctor, right now its lunch break and i'm in my office
[Freddy] 12:06 pm: waow nice job, cool
[Freddy] 12:06 pm: humbled
[Freddy] 12:06 pm:
[Nick] 12:06 pm: so when you're looking, right now, there's no "I" there?
[Freddy] 12:07 pm: yes and no
[Freddy] 12:07 pm: I mean, no
[Freddy] 12:07 pm: just seeing
[Freddy] 12:07 pm: but still a sense of someone behind the eyes
[Freddy] 12:07 pm:
[Nick] 12:07 pm: ok, so is it yes and no, or no? is it flip-flopping?
[Freddy] 12:07 pm: yes
[Nick] 12:07 pm: lets try the physical looking thing together.
[Freddy] 12:08 pm: ok
[Nick] 12:08 pm: im looking around the room, looking at hands. "I" think there are 2 eyeballs and a brain in a skull
[Freddy] 12:08 pm: just seeing
[Freddy] 12:08 pm: that's it
[Freddy] 12:08 pm: no Fred or Nick there are there?
[Nick] 12:08 pm: but when i really look, there's no 2 eyes seeing, its like there's ONE space, one huge visual field with everything in it
[Freddy] 12:09 pm: yes
[Freddy] 12:09 pm: everything there
[Nick] 12:09 pm: look and see there no barrier, nothing blockign your view of the whole world.
[Nick] 12:09 pm: theres no difference inside and outside
[Freddy] 12:09 pm: straight up seeing
[Freddy] 12:09 pm: no barriers
[Nick] 12:10 pm: look at an object, im looking at a phone
[Freddy] 12:10 pm: no thing standing in the way
[Freddy] 12:10 pm: glass
[Nick] 12:10 pm: where's the "boundary" of the glass? where does it stop and "space" start? where does space stop and "you" start?
[Nick] 12:10 pm: its continuum
[Freddy] 12:11 pm: boundery of the glass is where içt is discerned that its edges are
[Freddy] 12:11 pm: then space between the boundaries of the glass and the eyes
[Freddy] 12:12 pm: continuum?
[Nick] 12:12 pm: thinking....
[Freddy] 12:12 pm: glass is there
[Nick] 12:12 pm: you want to put a "name and form" to the glass, like its a discrete THING separate from everything else
[Freddy] 12:13 pm: but glass is just a concept, a label
[Nick] 12:13 pm: and our day-to-day "experience" reinforces this veiw
[Freddy] 12:13 pm: is this where we're going?
[Freddy] 12:13 pm: in reality there is no glass
[Nick] 12:14 pm: in fact, we must act AS IF there is a glass, and a you and a me, this is how the "world" funcitons
[Freddy] 12:14 pm: yes
[Nick] 12:14 pm: in reality there is no glass separate from everythign else. you can sense this by looking, seeing and knowing theres no space bw you and the glass, no glass, no you
[Freddy] 12:14 pm: but it's all conventional labels and activites... ultimately thats all empty
[Nick] 12:15 pm: yes, empty
[Nick] 12:15 pm: look at the chat screen for a minute
[Freddy] 12:15 pm: I know! why can't this be seen
[Freddy] 12:15 pm: ?
[Freddy] 12:15 pm: yep
[Nick] 12:15 pm: when you look at it, what do you see? like ONE IMAGE, right?
[Freddy] 12:16 pm: yes
[Nick] 12:16 pm: just one image with blue and white on it
[Freddy] 12:16 pm: yes
[Nick] 12:16 pm: this is what's real in experience, one image with colors, etc
[Nick] 12:16 pm: now examine the words, letters
[Nick] 12:17 pm: each one of these letters can be focused on, and it seems to exist ON ITS OWN, separate from the others
[Nick] 12:17 pm: each word has its own name and meaning, something in the realm of thought
[Nick] 12:17 pm: each letter has its own "name and form" like the glass or the phone
[Nick] 12:17 pm: but what are you seeing really in real life?
[Nick] 12:17 pm: one picture, one image
[Freddy] 12:18 pm: lol
[Nick] 12:18 pm: a totality
[Freddy] 12:18 pm: yes
[Freddy] 12:18 pm: indeed
[Nick] 12:18 pm: each person, each mind, fred and nick, we have our own name and form
[Nick] 12:18 pm: the thoughts and labels tell a convincing story of a separate individual person
[Freddy] 12:19 pm: but they're just thoughts and labels
[Nick] 12:19 pm: yeah not real in real life
[Freddy] 12:20 pm: put on stuff that don't really exist outside of this
[Nick] 12:20 pm: theres no you inside a head looking out
[Freddy] 12:20 pm: just a thought of me
[Freddy] 12:21 pm: of a me
[Nick] 12:21 pm: yes a thought, thats what its all based on
[Nick] 12:21 pm: can the thought THINK?
[Freddy] 12:24 pm: sorry talking to my manager
[Nick] 12:24 pm: haha they have no idea whats going down
[Freddy] 12:24 pm: yeah
[Freddy] 12:25 pm: lol
[Freddy] 12:25 pm: they don't
[Freddy] 12:25 pm: ^^
[Freddy] 12:25 pm: No a thought can't think
[Freddy] 12:25 pm: only a brain can think
[Freddy] 12:26 pm: a thought is empty of consistence
[Freddy] 12:26 pm: just a thought
[Nick] 12:26 pm: brain makes electrical signals, runs the body
[Nick] 12:26 pm: are your thoughts inside the brain?
[Freddy] 12:26 pm: ok there is fear
[Freddy] 12:26 pm: nick the fear is to become emtpy
[Nick] 12:27 pm: whats the fear? what is it threatening to do?
[Freddy] 12:27 pm: empty of feelings
[Freddy] 12:27 pm: of not reacting to the surroundings the way I should
[Freddy] 12:27 pm: something like that
[Nick] 12:27 pm: stare at the fear, dont look away
[Freddy] 12:27 pm: of seeming like a vegetable
[Nick] 12:27 pm: it wants the looking to stop, it will do anythign to stop the seeing, its like a guard dog
[Nick] 12:27 pm: fear serves a purpose. respect it.
[Freddy] 12:28 pm: it's not like a strong fear
[Nick] 12:28 pm: listen to it. writ down everything that it says will happen. thank the fear for telling you this
[Freddy] 12:28 pm: just more like a concern
[Freddy] 12:28 pm: concern to become brain-dead
[Freddy] 12:28 pm: or something
[Freddy] 12:29 pm: not wanting to see because of this
[Nick] 12:29 pm: yes i know
[Freddy] 12:29 pm:
[Nick] 12:29 pm: the fear is a servant, a guardian
[Freddy] 12:29 pm: looking away
[Nick] 12:29 pm: look at it and feel it
[Nick] 12:29 pm: let it overwhelm you nothign will happen
[Freddy] 12:30 pm: no I
[Nick] 12:30 pm: ask the fear - "what is your purpose?"
[Nick] 12:30 pm: are you saying "no I" as in you got it?
[Freddy] 12:31 pm: no
[Freddy] 12:31 pm: still looking
[Freddy] 12:31 pm: I have to go
[Nick] 12:31 pm: dont back down from fear. its guarding the secret
[Nick] 12:31 pm: i'll catch up with you later on forum. Great job dude
[Freddy] 12:31 pm: but when I say fear
[Freddy] 12:31 pm: it's not even that
[Freddy] 12:32 pm: it's more like something laughing
[Freddy] 12:32 pm: saying this is useless
[Nick] 12:32 pm: another trick
[Nick] 12:32 pm: self is mortally wounded, dying
[Nick] 12:32 pm: its like Hitler at the end of the war, its beaten but it wont surrender
[Freddy] 12:33 pm: saying how can you be normal if you see things like this?
[Nick] 12:33 pm: hiding deep inside a bunker, powerless, it cant fight back for real anymore so its using cheap tricks, anythign to stay alive for one more minute.
[Freddy] 12:33 pm: it's not natural
[Nick] 12:33 pm: the self thinks its fighting
[Nick] 12:33 pm: it thinks its fight another "person" so it uses these tactics, they wont work
[Freddy] 12:34 pm: ok
[Freddy] 12:34 pm: looking
[Nick] 12:34 pm: all you have to do is look around you right here and now and see whats real
[Freddy] 12:34 pm: just seeing
[Nick] 12:34 pm: you wont disappear
[Nick] 12:35 pm: THERES NOTHING TO DISAPPEAR
[Freddy] 12:35 pm: how long did it take to see it with "you"?
[Nick] 12:36 pm: it doesn't matter
[Freddy] 12:36 pm: ok
[Nick] 12:36 pm: it can take some people 5 minutes others take years
[Freddy] 12:36 pm: oh gosh
[Freddy] 12:37 pm: now that's a scary thought
[Freddy] 12:37 pm: lol
[Freddy] 12:38 pm: or even lives...
[Nick] 12:39 pm: who cares? just look
[Nick] 12:39 pm: distraction, its another trick
[Nick] 12:39 pm: im telling you you are AT THE GATE
[Freddy] 12:39 pm: you said to stop meditation for the time being right?
[Nick] 12:40 pm: you dont need it for this, seeing probably wont happen during meditation
[Nick] 12:40 pm: if it makes you feel good and youre in a habit of doing it every day, go ahead
[Freddy] 12:40 pm: ok
[Nick] 12:40 pm: i wouldn't recommend startign anythign new, going on retreats, etc. just focus on this for now and see how you feel after liberation
[Nick] 12:41 pm: the mind will trick you
[Freddy] 12:41 pm: ok
[Freddy] 12:41 pm: I gotta go Nick
[Freddy] 12:41 pm: Thank you...
[Nick] 12:41 pm: you get distracted, "oh maybe i should try this technique" "maybe i should read this new book or talk to this teacher"
[Freddy] 12:41 pm: I get it
[Nick] 12:42 pm: you are as CLOSE as you can get. Talk to you later.
[Freddy] 12:42 pm: will keep looking for as long as it takes
[Nick] 12:42 pm: bye
[Freddy] 12:42 pm: ok have a nice afternoon
[The Lounge]: Freddy has left at 12:42 pm

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Re: Enlighten me if you can! :-)

Postby Nick » Tue Jul 17, 2012 6:57 pm

Hey Fred, that was a cool chat earlier. So fun to look together. I hope it helped.

Jsut a few observations and comments:

- I didn't mean to give you the impression that this could take you years to see. I thought you meant "how long does it take for a seeker to awaken?" which can take years. But for YOU Fred, you did alot of the work beforehand, and now seeking is close to an end. You are at the Gate right now. Just getting where you are can take years but you're here already. At this point, you're ready to pop - it will happen instantaneously, and then seeking is over. "Fred" can go on maturing and deepening and having further insights after that, but the big step will be done. All this takes is ONE TIME looking and seeing it for real.

- you ran into fear during our chat, which is a good thing. Seriously, find this fear again, look at it, investigate the fear just like you investigated thoughts, perceptions, and all this other stuff. Use the same "clinical" eye and really examine it like its a dead alien or something. See what makes it tick. Allow it to do its thing, see what it has to say, and really look at what it's protecting. You're afraid of losing control, of being a brain-dead mental patient. But the fact is that you are already not in control, because there is no you! The "self" is like a virus in your mental software, its being wiped out, but now it's trying to scare you with all this "data" that you will lose. Just look and see - there's already nothing there right now, just a brain and thoughts humming along on their own. Nothing to lose, it's already like this!

:)

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Re: Enlighten me if you can! :-)

Postby Freddy » Wed Jul 18, 2012 11:38 am

Hi Nick,

hope you're well today. thanks for taking the time to chat yesterday, it was a good thing although it hasn't yet triggered the direct exprience of "no I".

Here is where I am at right now: life is unfolding as usual, with this sticky sense of self in the background as usual, but there is a constant reminder (well, maybe not constant but frequent) that no one is experiecing this right now, that there's just life flowing without an experiencer, a doer, a sufferer, a talker, a thinker, etc. Trying to get into that thick head that although the sense of self is real and it's there, the "I" is just a thought that points to something that's not real, that cannot be found anywhere except as a label put on sensations by the brain.

Really really thinking about this right now and looking, this feels really close, there is like this sinking feeling in the stomach when thinking and looking deeply, kind of like butterflies, a sort of anticipation, it's so close but yet as long at is hasn't been seen it remains elusive...

Things are just happening on their own, things are just happening on their own, there is no "I" typing this message, there is no "I" that's looking, there is no "I" that's anticipating, it's all just the flow of life and no "I" to experience it, just experience, come on that's it no "I", no "I", look look look heart racing look look no "I" of any sort to be found anywhere, no "I", who am I? just a thought, no I in real life, doesn't exist, cannot be found, just experience, seeing, hearing, typing, thinking, breathing, smelling, tasting, sufffering, enjoying, sitting, no subject or object, just things happening, experience, no separation, integrated field of sensations, thoughts and emotion, that's all there is, I is part of that process but does not experience that process, that's it, just part of that integrated field of experiences happening all at once, pure love, butterfly in the stomach, no one behind, just complete openess, all happening at once, beautiful, this is it isn't it? just openess and love, nothing else, nothing else...

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Re: Enlighten me if you can! :-)

Postby Freddy » Wed Jul 18, 2012 11:45 am

crying...

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Freddy
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Re: Enlighten me if you can! :-)

Postby Freddy » Wed Jul 18, 2012 11:57 am

Relief... pleasure... light-headedness... are we there yet? Who cares!? Everything is just eprfect the way it is...

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Re: Enlighten me if you can! :-)

Postby Nick » Wed Jul 18, 2012 1:13 pm

beautiful

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Re: Enlighten me if you can! :-)

Postby Nick » Wed Jul 18, 2012 1:22 pm

its so simple, right? nothing to it. just relax, let go of all the bullshit and expectations, and look. real life, true nature, right here all along!

right now maybe you're at work, like me, surrounded by others. so perhaps "Fred" doesn't have the liberty to laugh out loud, cry, and feel strong emotions. but just take a look anyway. "Fred" doesn't need to do anything. The story of "Fred" can just continue doing its thing in the world. the seeing can still happen on its own, it never goes away, only the focus shifts. its like when you LOOK, you've put on eyeglasses, and you can SEE everything perfectly clear. but then you have to take them off, and things are blurry again. but, IN REALITY nothing changed, the world is still there, existing just like it always did, only perception changes :)

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Re: Enlighten me if you can! :-)

Postby Nick » Wed Jul 18, 2012 1:27 pm

fred,

I hope you're enjoying seeing with opened eyes. Just relax and take it all in. Go for a walk, really look around like its your first time outside and see everything happening. Soak it in and appreciate all the nuances, how intricate and awesome the world is. Take your time with this next question, answer when you have some time by yourself to write.

Fred, is there an I, a me, or a self in any way? was there ever?

wait until you feel ready and then respond. write as much as you want, rant and rave if you like, I love reading your stuff.

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Re: Enlighten me if you can! :-)

Postby Freddy » Wed Jul 18, 2012 2:11 pm

Hi Nick,

A lot of enjoyment, yes. It doesn't get any simpler than this! Of course it's all already there, it's just like you say, and looking at things just the way they are, without that crazy filter of I in the middle... just seeing, experiencing the beauty of it all...There was a surge of emotion when this was seen in its utter simplicity, a deep feeling of love and gratitude... It was all about surrendering to how it is, just like it is... stop fighting, it's all there... Will write more later...

Thank you Nick!
Fred

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Re: Enlighten me if you can! :-)

Postby Nick » Wed Jul 18, 2012 2:26 pm

its obvious that seeing has happened. you might as well answer all the questions while you're at it. take your time.

1) Is there a 'me', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, and how it works.

3) How does it feel to see this?

4) How would you describe it to a friend who has never heard about this stuff.

5) What was the thing that pushed you over, that made seeing happen?

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Re: Enlighten me if you can! :-)

Postby Freddy » Wed Jul 18, 2012 9:45 pm

Hi Nick will post answers tomorrow so as to sleep on it, thanks my friend :-)

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Re: Enlighten me if you can! :-)

Postby Nick » Wed Jul 18, 2012 10:46 pm

perfect! looking forward to it.

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Re: Enlighten me if you can! :-)

Postby Freddy » Thu Jul 19, 2012 9:13 pm

Hi Nick my good friend,

Sorry I haven't posted earlier, I've been really busy at work and had some connection problems at home so it was hard to get those answers. But now it's back and there they are:

1) Is there a 'me', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

No there really isn’t, and there never was.

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, and how it works.

First there is just life, flowing, seeing, hearing, feeling, touching, smelling, tasting, thinking... Then at some point in early childhood I'd say (and there is actually memory of that begining/defining moment for Fred), a need arises of one's own identity to be defined and to start developing, which is what this person is then required / asked (by norms and standards) to use as a reference point in order to interact with society, compare with others around him, compete, have qualities and defaults assigned to him/her, take responsabilities, basically grow-up and become a so-called responsible adult (not that most adults who have no idea what we're talking about here are not responsible, it's just that they forgot that this identity they believe in, cherish and nourish so much, sometimes way too much, was not there to begin with and is still just an idea, a concept, a belief, a make-up, a "superimposition" on what life really is, and here I mean bare reality with no make-up on, and it's not ugly at all, no sir lol) in a responsible world (now that sounds like a pure fantasy doesn't it?).

The more an individual's brain/mind grabs hold of that "superimposition" of a self onto bare reality, the more the belief in this idea/concept takes root as being that person's true self/true identity, to the point that this person forgets completely what life is really like and lives his/her life defining everything according to what seems now like a real self, and this can create tremendous pain because of the consant separation this creates between me and others, etc.

3) How does it feel to see this?

Liberating. A return to childhood in a way, a return to innocence. There’s a deep sense of relief to actually REMEMBER (because this is what has happened with Fred, not right when this was seen but as things settled, and the memory of when self sort of had to appear out of nowhere is remembered) that this self was/is just an illusion, a belief that is requested of us humans to develop in order to be able to grow up and survive in society, that it never really existed and never will, ever! Ah! It's liberating to get back to that innocence, drop that weight carried on the shoulders that Fred is like this and like that and that's just how it is and this and that should be done for Fred to feel better and be happier etc., when Fred is just a freakin' illusion... So yes, it's feels liberating, that hit the spot, if I may say so. :)

4) How would you describe it to a friend who has never heard about this stuff.

"Hey bro, can you please take a minute, just a minute, and listen to me with attention. Please, stop taking yourself so seriously and thinking you're all that and everything. This is WHY YOU suffer. When in fact, you're nothing! You don't even exist at all. That's right my good friend, YOU are nowhere to be found! Where are you? Can you point me to where you are exactly? Your body? I tell you this is not YOUR body, this is just A body. Your brain? Same thing, just A brain. Your thoughts? No my friend, just thoughts hre, they're NOT oyur thoughtd. Listen my friend, try to remember before that sense of self appeared, try to remember what things were like before you starting looking at the word through what is now known as YOUR OWN eyes... Do you remember? Can you remember? There was just life flowing, in its utter simplicity, just seeing, hearing, touching, feeling, sensing, emotions, just before this innoncence was buried under that belief in yourself, in "I" exist and this is "ME" and these are "MY EMOTIONS" and this is "MY LIFE" and so on. This is all fake I tell you. There is no YOU, just like there is no ME, there never was and never will be. YOU, my friend, are a DREAM, a BELIEF, just a TOHUGHT in the brain, and because YOU nourrish and cherrish that dream so much, YOU suffer (when in fact there's just unecessary suffering). Let go, surrender, vanish, look at things not through your eyes, but just look, with innonence, and let it be seen that YOU is a cloud, an illusion, let go off it, surrender to this moment NOW, there is NO YOU, nowhere, and see, REALLY SEE that all there is is LIFE, and all its beauty, in all its integrity which can never ever be tainted, in all its perfection, look and see that it is just how it is, how it's always been, and how it will alway be, EVER. I love you my friend.

5) What was the thing that pushed you over, that made seeing happen?

Strangely enough, it was something that was written by Fred when looking was taking place, in the following paragraph it is in bold, during the most intense and honest looking phase Fred was administered since the process started:

"Things are just happening on their own, things are just happening on their own, there is no "I" typing this message, there is no "I" that's looking, there is no "I" that's anticipating, it's all just the flow of life and no "I" to experience it, just experience, come on that's it no "I", no "I", look look look heart racing look look no "I" of any sort to be found anywhere, no "I", who am I? just a thought, no I in real life, doesn't exist, cannot be found, just experience, seeing, hearing, typing, thinking, breathing, smelling, tasting, sufffering, enjoying, sitting, no subject or object, just things happening, experience, no separation, integrated field of sensations, thoughts and emotion, that's all there is, I is part of that process but does not experience that process, that's it, just part of that integrated field of experiences happening all at once, pure love, butterfly in the stomach, no one behind, just complete openness, all happening at once, beautiful, this is it isn't it? just openness and love, nothing else, nothing else..."

Since that moment, which brought tears to my eyes because the simplicity of life had not been seen/felt like this for quite a long time (many years!), the seeing is getting refined, and there is profound gladness that innocence could be found again at this stage of life, because now an even deeper process of seeing and comprehending can take hold again, and yes, this is just the begenning, and yes, the rabbit hole can only go deeper and deeper, and there is belief that further profound insights are more available now than they were when the cloud of self was so thick and alive.

Hoping this answers your questions. Thank you Nick for bringing this seeing here again, much love and appreciation.

I'm HERE and NOW!

Fred

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Re: Enlighten me if you can! :-)

Postby Freddy » Thu Jul 19, 2012 9:29 pm

This is what we're dealing with here :)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rk_sAHh9s08

Love y'all


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