Guidance requested.

[Chris]

I understand the wisdom in what your saying. So, is the sense of self what I am? If so, how can i, with love and wisdom, discern that intuitive sense of self...from this idea of an actual self that I still carry? Because at the end of the day, this has to move from intellectual to experiential.

I am requesting that you observe direct experience of thoughts and senses in order to move from an intellectual understanding to an experiential realization.

You are trying to understand instead of simply looking to see what is really going on. It only takes a moment. The sense of self doesn't have to end or change at all for the belief in an actual self to end. You are not looking for an experience or to add a new and better understanding. What you are looking for is an erroneous belief (or beliefs depending on the number of assumtions in your mind about this) to drop.

If you can't find what you are, is it possible that there is no you at all?

[Chris]

If there is no you, what is asking these questions? If there is no you, who is wondering if sense of self is what you are? Is there a thinker, or are there just thoughts? Watch thoughts and let me know what is observed about the thought process itself. Not the content, just the flow of the thoughts themselves.

[idomebutami]

Well who is the one who could drop this belief in personhood?

[idomebutami]

Its tough to really capture that erroneous belief in a tangible enough form to then be able to deny ownership of it. Because, isn't the erroneous belief the Thing that you are requesting this sort of investigation to?

Another issue I am having: I sit here and try to remain in an unassociated state, but there is still a part of me that is looking for an "altered state". Like a state of complete unconditional contentment. Probably just a trap..

On a personal level, and from your awakened nature, if for example...you take a long drive, can you sit in the car in total silence without any anticipation of a destination, content to just exist at that moment? ...that, to me, is the idea of the altered state that my mind is holding on to..

[Chris]

Its tough to really capture that erroneous belief in a tangible enough form to then be able to deny ownership of it. Because, isn't the erroneous belief the Thing that you are requesting this sort of investigation to?

The point is not to deny ownership of this belief, but to see that it is false. How can there be belief in something ever again once it is seen to be false?

Another issue I am having: I sit here and try to remain in an unassociated state, but there is still a part of me that is looking for an "altered state". Like a state of complete unconditional contentment. Probably just a trap..

Does it take effort to hear a sound, to see if the eyes are open, to have a thought? Check your experience and let me know how much effort is requeired for these things. You are not looking for a state, but paying attention to everyday experience of thought and senses. You are looking for the DOer of senses and thoughts. Can you find one?

On a personal level, and from your awakened nature, if for example...you take a long drive, can you sit in the car in total silence without any anticipation of a destination, content to just exist at that moment? ...that, to me, is the idea of the altered state that my mind is holding on to..

What you are talking about here has nothing to do with this inquiry. Please look at the things I am pointing to. This line of thought is just a distraction.

[idomebutami]

haha, I knew you wouldn't engage with that. Yes, definitely a distraction.

So you have sent me some gems that I would like to digest. I have a lot of conceptions about all of this that hopefully our exchange will assist in dismantling.

Until tomorrow, have a good evening.

[Chris]

Hope all is well with you, David. Any luck dismantling those conceptions?

[idomebutami]

The intillectual grasp is solid...and its starting to chew away at the experiential aspects. I suppose thats how it starts. I KNOW that any idea of a person has to be false. So i take that understanding with me throughout the day and allow it to filter aspects of my experience of reality. Im essentially thinning the veil as much as possible in hopes of just falling through.

[Chris]

Can you please describe for me what you imagine it will be like when you fall through the veil.

[idomebutami]

Throughout a normal day I tend to catch my mind wondering. In my experience that wondering mind serves only the past or the future. I suppose slipping through the veil to me would imply a step back into a more fundamental perspective of my collective being. It would be a perspective that does not include the nuisance of the wandering mind. It would be living with a singular focus on whatever presents itself to your conscience, with the option to interpret or add value based on a utilitarian relationship with the mind.

[Chris]

I asked what you imagine to get a gauge on what is going on in your mind and your inquiry. The things that you listed may very well happen once you've had the "no self" realization. However, it seems like you are looking for the possible after effects instead of at the "gate" which is what we point to at LU.

Look at your direct experience, is there a you that you can find? Do you see, or is there just seeing happening? Do you hear, or is there just hearing happening? Do you think or is there just thinking happening? Watch thoughts, if there is no you, then where do they come from?

Please focus on this and this alone. This is the “gate”. Keep looking at this with no expectations about what it should look like and what you might find.

[Chris]

I suppose slipping through the veil to me would imply a step back into a more fundamental perspective of my collective being.

Here, you are assuming the existence of something called your "collective being". Sounds like a big cosmic SELF to me. This inquiry is done to determine if that self or SELF exists like we assume it does. Your inquiry should be very simple. Look, in your normal experience and using normal everyday senses and see if there is a self doing all the things that you think a self does. Seeing, hearing, thinking, etc.

It would be a perspective that does not include the nuisance of the wandering mind. It would be living with a singular focus on whatever presents itself to your conscience, with the option to interpret or add value based on a utilitarian relationship with the mind.

If there is no self, who would choose from options? Stop assuming a self that has volition and look for that self instead.

[Chris]

Are you still looking? How's it going?

[idomebutami]

Always looking, but am beginning to see the futility in it. Afterall, "who" could really be there to look.

So what Im doing now is just allowing some of the wisdom from your posts to soak into my every day experience of reality, truly. I understand everything you say and Im starting to feel some shifting, but I suppose im just not "ready" for this shift in perspective yet. I am involved in a life that is very demanding of my "me", so its difficult for me to maintain as nothing when im constantly being related to and interacted with as a someone.

[Chris]

Always looking, but am beginning to see the futility in it. Afterall, "who" could really be there to look.

So what Im doing now is just allowing some of the wisdom from your posts to soak into my every day experience of reality, truly. I understand everything you say and Im starting to feel some shifting, but I suppose im just not "ready" for this shift in perspective yet. I am involved in a life that is very demanding of my "me", so its difficult for me to maintain as nothing when im constantly being related to and interacted with as a someone.

It's already the case that there's no you. Always has been. Yet, there is a sense of a you. That doesn't have to change. You are not looking for a permanent perspective shift. If there's no you, who would be able to "maintain as nothing"? Test to see if this assumption that YOU exist and are living YOUR life is true. Stop working from assumptions and look at what is actually going on.