unfolding universe

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harry44
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Re: unfolding universe

Postby harry44 » Thu Jul 20, 2017 4:54 am

Amrita:

Hi, I did contemplate free will and although it is thought, and there is also right action. Just popped in. Free will is choice obviously thought, however, I feel it is necessary regarding decisions made in the 3D dimension. Right action is action without thought, one could say their higher self or spirit just funnels in what is the answer or what gets done; I guess right action becomes dominate when one finally, irrevocably lets go. There was a time when I did not irrevocably let go, however, knowing this now, one is more in tune with life realizing things mostly happen and self is seldom in the picture, well perhaps not seldom let's say 50/50.

So I ask; what is it that stands in the way? What stops a full embracing , Oh! I see the self is still there, perhaps a bit cloudy while still lurking about. With eyes closed it is easier falling into emptiness and there were times driving that awareness was present, yet one has confidence this idea of not knowing something will release.

Peace and love, Harry

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amrita
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Re: unfolding universe

Postby amrita » Fri Jul 21, 2017 8:06 am

Hi Harry,

Welcome back! I hope your trip was successful.

Let's look at you statement,
What stops a full embracing , Oh! I see the self is still there, perhaps a bit cloudy while still lurking about.
How do you know the "self is still there? Is the self a thought? Or is it a sensation? Or is a combination of the two? When you say you see the self is still there, what exactly is it that you see?

Amrita

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harry44
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Re: unfolding universe

Postby harry44 » Wed Jul 26, 2017 4:50 am

Amrita:

What stops a full embracing , Oh! I see the self is still there, perhaps a bit cloudy while still lurking about.

How do you know the "self is still there? Is the self a thought? Or is it a sensation? Or is a combination of the two? When you say you see the self is still there, what exactly is it that you see?

I would say self is a thought, a sense of a separate self but when looked for isn't there. So self arises in the illusion of being separate when a thought objectifies something. In the process of identifying with a passing thought this identifying, which is a thought, feels itself as being a separate self. So when a thought identifies with a passing thought, well that thought feels it is a separate entity when it objectifies the passing thought.
I suppose thought is a sensation, however, it happens so quickly it's hard to really know that to be true. I know sensations arise and are thought about so you're asking is the sensation itself a thought; I would say the sensation itself is not a thought. If one steps on a rock they feel a sensation, when that sensation is objectified as pain that would be a thought. So self is a thought and not a sensation.
Sometimes my experience of awareness is deeper than other times, it can be total connection or the notion it is just a thought just looking at another thought; this notion is what I meant by a self still there.

This week during our phone conversation I wanted to get a fuller picture of ego and I asking are they the same or separate. Well I got the ocean and the wave. Essentially the ocean is all or presence and anything that breaks away from it is thought in some form, labels aside. Personally even though I sometimes use metaphors, I am more concrete and prefer an answer where one speaks from personal experience. I will state this question differently if given the opportunity next week. I know I and ego are the illusion of thought, my intellect knows this but my heart doesn't. If one can live through the explanation of another, in the space of knowing all are together, like the ocean, only for me one didn't feel heart resonance.

I am happy you are back as your questions continue pulling out the cobwebs.
Just today, this morning, my intention shifted to incorporate some changes; set alarm for early up, meditate twice a day for 20 to 30 minutes, contemplate once or twice a day same amount of time on a specific subject, and read at least 30 minutes 2x a day. The ocean did bring to mind my daily routine and it brought to mind another question you had asked about where I was or how I went about things done routinely.

Peace and love, Harry

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amrita
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Re: unfolding universe

Postby amrita » Wed Jul 26, 2017 9:15 pm

Harry,

It's brilliant you have pinpointed the sense of self within thoughts.
I would say self is a thought, a sense of a separate self but when looked for isn't there. So self arises in the illusion of being separate when a thought objectifies something. In the process of identifying with a passing thought this identifying, which is a thought, feels itself as being a separate self. So when a thought identifies with a passing thought, well that thought feels it is a separate entity
Thoughts are part of a story the mind tells itself. Thoughts describe the world around us and because we are so used to them we identify with them and believe they are real. However, thoughts are just mental chatter. They have no vaild reality. The problem is when we over-identify with our thoughts. Particularly thoughts about the self. We find we have lots of thoughts about the self but when we look for the self it cannot be found anywhere. When we clearly see thoughts about the self are referring to something that does not exist then we become liberated from attachment to this ficitonal self. A bit like seeing through the santa claus myth. Once we see santa claus does not exist its impossible to believe in it again!


Staying with your direct experience in the here and now, can you find a self that exists outside of thoughts?

Are any thoughts that arise the self? Do some thoughts contain the self and some not? What kind of thoughts do you identify this sense of self with?

love

amrita

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harry44
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Re: unfolding universe

Postby harry44 » Thu Jul 27, 2017 4:30 am

Amrita:


Are any thoughts that arise the self? Do some thoughts contain the self and some not? What kind of thoughts do you identify this sense of self

Thoughts as they arise : thoughts arise by themselves, these are not the self; a following identifying thought would be the self. The I, self and ego are all identifiers of the arising thought, so taking them all as equal then all identifying thoughts would contain or be motivated through a self.
I suppose when a thought is incriminating a response is apt to rise up in defense, also any thought that is perceived as an attack like someone saying you're a something: an alternative to a self rising up might be a response that says" that's one way of looking at it ". Oh! I see this would be a self also; so any response would involve a self. So this question would involve a completely different way of recognition. It's sort of like sounds are heard, but, with no identifier.
I don;t have a solution at this moment, however I will continue with it. Very nicely put.

Peace and love, Harry

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amrita
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Re: unfolding universe

Postby amrita » Fri Jul 28, 2017 5:59 pm

Harry,

Apologies for not replying sooner. I was away for a few days but back now.

When you say,
thoughts arise by themselves, these are not the self; a following identifying thought would be the self. The I, self and ego are all identifiers of the arising thought, so taking them all as equal then all identifying thoughts would contain or be motivated through a self.
can you say what it is that identifies with the thought? Can you find this identification in your present experience? Is this identification another type of thought or is it a sensation? In other words, how do you know when you have identified with a thought as opposed to thoughts you have not identified with?

Love

Amrita

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harry44
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Re: unfolding universe

Postby harry44 » Sat Jul 29, 2017 4:46 am

Amrita:

can you say what it is that identifies with the thought? Can you find this identification in your present experience? Is this identification another type of thought or is it a sensation? In other words, how do you know when you have identified with a thought as opposed to thoughts you have not identified with?

What identifies with the thoughts? Well if everything is an illusion then the only thing that could identify is the thought itself. Which is sort of odd as what would be the point, it would actually have no purpose as it has to leave this moment.

I cannot find any identification in this present experience, in fact, there is none. There only is, what is. Trying to bring up similarities are easily put to the wayside as the present moment has an uptick in energy.

No it is clearly seen it is not another type of thought, in fact if it weren't for typing it would be no thought. In fact a thought just went through but there was nothing to grab it. So thoughts and sensations do arise, but with no identification, pass on through.

I suppose one would know they have identified with a thought as they would notice a shift in energy, also one's value system changes; like what is the point of giving value to an illusion.

Thank you Amrita, I was going to say I would think on this more, however, right now the brain feels empty

Peace and love, Harry

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amrita
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Re: unfolding universe

Postby amrita » Sat Jul 29, 2017 1:20 pm

Hi Harry,

From your answer it seems that you can not find a "self" anywhere in experience and there is only experience,
I cannot find any identification in this present experience, in fact, there is none. There only is, what is.
If you can no longer find a self within experience does that mean you no longer believe in a self or are there some lingering doubts?

I have asked you this question before from the confirmation questions but will ask again to see if any shift in perception has taken place. Sometimes the shifts can be radical and sometimes they can be very subtle. Everyone is different!

Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

Love

Amrita

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harry44
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Re: unfolding universe

Postby harry44 » Sun Jul 30, 2017 6:56 am

Amrira:
If you can no longer find a self within experience does that mean you no longer believe in a self or are there some lingering doubts?

I would say, since one cannot find a self, it is not there. That being the case; I no longer believe there is a separate self. This new found realization feels it may take, or not, in that if it is believed; why would it take time realizing it all the time. By that I mean it wasn't an Ah! Ha! moment, rather, no self, was realized through deduction; so I was inferring it may take time working through what is realized moment to moment.

I have asked you this question before from the confirmation questions but will ask again to see if any shift in perception has taken place. Sometimes the shifts can be radical and sometimes they can be very subtle. Everyone is different!

Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

NO there is no separate entity " self, me, I ". in any form, they never existed; they were never there. I sort of waffle back and forth here, however, I know at core level, this is true. I was explaining it today to someone else and had no trouble or doubt; so the knowing is there. I also realize there is a lot involved in this realization as psychologically all that was thought to be true really never existed as it sprang from an illusion. That frees a huge amount of space and makes me, no me, makes one wonder about all those years spent in therapy. So the illusion creates a whole aspect of society which, in reality, doesn't exist. So this illusion is why we only use such a small % of brain space. This understanding certainly creates a freeing.

I realize the therapy thing, one would need to realize the illusion before going in, that is, if you are living in the 10% mind then you think all that is true, even though it really isn't. Descartes created a real mental quagmire. He said; " I think, therefore I am": by doing this he separated the I from thought, that is, he made the I the objectifier of thought.

Peace and love, Harry

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amrita
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Re: unfolding universe

Postby amrita » Sun Jul 30, 2017 9:02 pm

Hi Harry,

I agree with your critique of Cartesian dualism. Identifying the "self" with thinking and thought underpins the entire illusion of separateness. It sounds from what you have written that there has been a shift in seeing that there is no such thing as a self to identify with. Here are the rest of the confirmation questions and I will ask some of the other guides to give feedback on your process.


Here are the questions. you have already answered the first but if you could spend some time exploring and answerting the others that would be great.

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.

3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

5) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control. What makes things happen? How does it work? What are you responsible for? Give examples from experience.

6) Anything to add?

Love

amrita

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harry44
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Re: unfolding universe

Postby harry44 » Mon Jul 31, 2017 4:13 am

Amrita:

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.

Separate self: Today while driving around the countryside there were lots of farms with cows and a thought arose saying how free these cows were; then another thought arose which was judgmental about cows in general. Thoughts arise and fall all the time in awareness, however, when a thought comes that identifies or judges the initial thought, this is the action of the separate self and it is an illusion. Awareness is now, is now, is now going forward, although the forward is not guaranteed just an illustration: when a thought arises that judges or objectifies something, here a passing thought from awareness, it is trying to pull away from what is and thus it is an illusion. As , what ii, is always fresh and new, each moment materializing newness. When a thought tries to identify something, it is also trying to put the brakes on what is which is always new and fresh, this is an illusion as self cannot stop continual newness.


3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

My head feel more open, perhaps this sounds strange, however it has an empty feeling, also last night, when I went to bed,, the body went into a very strong vibration which lasted quite a long time easily 15 minutes or longer. I've felt mentally clear or clearer lately and most actions are immediate, there is no more debating doing something, a message comes and I do it. Before this dialogue II felt stuck and doubtful as to weather I might ever fully understand the false I and how it worked in myself; now these issues don't exist.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

Tough question as they all made me look; I suppose "what identifies with thought"; and questions pulled out the separate self. For me this was a gradual questioning which continually pushed deeper into looking until awareness became apparent.

5) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control. What makes things happen? How does it work? What are you responsible for? Give examples from experience.

6) Anything to add?

I will report answers 5 and 6 tomorrow

Peace and love, Harry

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harry44
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Re: unfolding universe

Postby harry44 » Mon Jul 31, 2017 6:28 pm

Amrita:

) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control. What makes things happen? How does it work? What are you responsible for? Give examples from experience.

Decision: This describes a mental resolution derived from weighing pros and cons, however, now my decisions seem to be spontaneous, one just knows what to do and then acts. An example would be a letter I just wrote, suddenly I knew this was right action and did it.

Intention: This is again something usually thought about before hand, however with no I it is merely action with not anything negative if it doesn't work out. An example would be a lawn mower I wanted to sell, the people said the deck was too small, I said OK and this issue was finished, nothing else to think about.

free will: is a philosophical/religious term meaning one is free to chose one way or the other, however with no I to choose or self to reflect on action, then for me free will doesn't enter picture. One always has choices, reflecting on them takes an I; should I do this or that, however with "right action" , choice gives up its power and one simply inherently knows how to proceed. example: Continuing on with this question format was never really a choice it was simply a knowing that this was right. Take recycling it's easier to just toss garbage in one central location, more difficult sorting it and then for me making a separate drive for depositing it. So it's no longer the good of the one, it's the good of the many, that's right action. Free will would allow this also: it's just there is no I to gloat and say look what I did.

Choice is picking one thing over another, however choice needs a chooser or I to make it. So choice would also fall to the wayside as one intrinsically knows what to do. Without a self or I this knowing falls into place.
I'm a consumer following American tradition, now when something is looked at one instantly knows if it is needed or not Example: recently in a tool store I walked through without lingering at anything going directly to what I wanted and that was all I purchased. One might say I am in the process of downsizing.

Control would also need a controller a separate self as organizer. All these words operate from an I or self, me, as a weight of knowing they don't exist except in illusion which diminishes and eventually removes them from appearing. This results is a
freer mind which is much more present. This being the case where one previously might look at others with judgement, comparison, like, dislike, endless reasons and many other items just fall away. Also and for me very important as feeling of love is much more dominate, so the feeling of love replaces the endless mental activity also referred to as monkey mind.


6) Anything to add? Well Amrita you always knew the right question at the exact time that aspect needed to be thought out. It has been an extremely liberating process and would forward in exploring more avenues in spiritual development if you felt so inclined. If not I will continue this pursuit in advancing up the chakra or evolutionary tree without the personal I or self to interfer and we'll see what unfolds. With sincere thanks and love; Harry

I will report answers 5 and 6 tomorrow

Peace and love, Harry
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amrita
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Re: unfolding universe

Postby amrita » Mon Jul 31, 2017 11:50 pm

Hi Harry,

Great answers! It's been a real delight (and learning experience) for me to guide you. Other guides have looked at your answers and I am happy to see you throught the gateless gate. I will make sure you are added to the aftercare group where there is discussion and support for those freshly through the gate. Id like to say I really appreciated your persistence to stay with the process. As many have said, this "liberation" is the end of one kind of process and the start of a new way of being. I am more than happy to keep exploring further with you if you would like.

I will get back to you about the aftercare process.

Much love

Amrita X

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amrita
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Re: unfolding universe

Postby amrita » Mon Jul 31, 2017 11:52 pm

PS. Do you have a facebook account as there are groups I can add you to there which may be of interest to you?

Amrita x

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harry44
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Re: unfolding universe

Postby harry44 » Fri Aug 11, 2017 7:43 am

Amrita:

Seem to have missed this email, here now though. I continue reading looking for a deeper understanding into the nature of life. I found your questioning technique especially rewarding and would like to continue working with you. It seems the whole character of life has opened a bit and my interaction has broadened. Regarding Facebook, I do have an account, don't use it much, however, would look through recent posts from different people with similar understanding. I continue looking so this forum opens a door into the unknown which may prove quite rewarding.

I have now set certain daily goals which set aside blocks of time for meditation, contemplation and reading. If we could continue working, well I would greatly appreciate it as your questions often provoked a pop or deeper understanding as the response was written.

Again thank you Amrita, peace and love, Harry


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