Ready to dive in...

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Eloratea
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Re: Ready to dive in...

Postby Eloratea » Mon Jul 09, 2012 6:57 pm

If I were confirming that there were "no cup," however, I would keep looking all around the room to be sure, and even then I wouldn't be positive. Is this natural? Do you simply keep checking until you're sure?
Yes. You would look at all places where you would expect it to be found. So is with the self. You look there where it is supposed to be. Than you know. The only place it can be is direct experience, here and now.
Or you would expect it somewhere else?
:)
Stay well.

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ixturtle
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Re: Ready to dive in...

Postby ixturtle » Mon Jul 09, 2012 7:19 pm

Yes. You would look at all places where you would expect it to be found. So is with the self. You look there where it is supposed to be. Than you know. The only place it can be is direct experience, here and now.
Or you would expect it somewhere else?
Where I "find" it is not in direct experience, here and now, but rather past ("my story") and future ("my fears"), both of which are projections of thought. In direct experience (which as you say is where one would expect it to be if it were real), there is just the "sense" that I mentioned earlier today. Not the mind (which we established I can't control and is "imagined" anyway), not the body (which is easy to identify with, but doesn't hold up upon examination-- though it might be helpful for me to get rid of all doubt here), not the sensations at the heart as I just mentioned (which are constantly morphing). So if pushed I would say "I" is what is aware of all these things... Except that "I" seems to like some things and not like other things, which is definitely coming from the mind, not from awareness which by definition would be before judgement. So then I come back to "I" is the mind...

Clearly, "I" doesn't hold a candle to a cup as far as "realness" goes.

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Eloratea
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Re: Ready to dive in...

Postby Eloratea » Mon Jul 09, 2012 7:35 pm

Awareness is one of the labels for this which is right now.
Are you aware of it, or „you“ is a thought appearing in awareness?
Are you having this experience, or „you“ is part of the experience?
Look, don't think.

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Derek
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Re: Ready to dive in...

Postby Derek » Mon Jul 09, 2012 8:16 pm

Are the liking and disliking anything other than familiar and habitual reactions? Is it possible for you to see them as they are before the label "I" has been slapped on top of them?

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ixturtle
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Re: Ready to dive in...

Postby ixturtle » Tue Jul 10, 2012 5:28 pm

Awareness is one of the labels for this which is right now.
Are you aware of it, or „you“ is a thought appearing in awareness?
Are you having this experience, or „you“ is part of the experience?
Awareness is clearly aware, even when "I'm" not directly aware of it (say when caught up in something). So "I" must be within awareness. But this is a thought, not direct seeing.

I've been trying to look (and not think) about this all last night & this morning and feel kind of like we four are sitting in an empty 8 x 10 room and the three of you are calmly telling me that there is no elephant in the room and somehow I keep having this thought that for sure, I can feel it breathing on me.

Yes: I know, it's just a thought, that's all. BTW, are any of you surgeons by trade and if so, would you mind taking a scalpel to my brain?!?!

Sigh. I can also sense for a moment here or there that "I" is just part of the experience-- floating about in the midst of Eloratea's coffee cup. But to be honest, "I'm not going to get this" is the general flavor of my current experience right now. Which by the way, is the oldest story in this particular character's playbook.
Are the liking and disliking anything other than familiar and habitual reactions? Is it possible for you to see them as they are before the label "I" has been slapped on top of them?
Yes. I can see them just as programming playing out within experience. The contraction/sadness/fear that arises still feels (sorry for being daft...) personal though. I "know" these are labels for sensations with a big MY attached to them. For many years I've been "practicing" just allowing them to be, watching them flow, seeing the thoughts that drive and sustain them. I can even see the "MY" (size of billboard). But I guess there is always an underlying current of not wanting the contraction/sadness/fear to be there anymore... which I know is not what this is about.

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ixturtle
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Re: Ready to dive in...

Postby ixturtle » Tue Jul 10, 2012 5:49 pm

ps. feel free to use a zen stick if you think it will help...!

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Derek
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Re: Ready to dive in...

Postby Derek » Tue Jul 10, 2012 5:53 pm

But to be honest, "I'm not going to get this" is the general flavor of my current experience right now.
Ok. Now what if I say to you that there isn't anyone there to do the getting? That "I'm not going to get this" is not only a story, but also a story with a non-existent subject?

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Derek
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Re: Ready to dive in...

Postby Derek » Tue Jul 10, 2012 6:02 pm

not wanting the contraction/sadness/fear to be there anymore.
You're quite capable of using the Zen stick on yourself. Can't you feel how painful that is?

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ixturtle
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Re: Ready to dive in...

Postby ixturtle » Tue Jul 10, 2012 6:54 pm

Can't you feel how painful that is?
Yes. (ouch! ;-)
Thanks, Derek. Truly. Heading out for a bit and will write soon.

Sending as much love and appreciation as I can possibly heft up into the internet cloud for you all and this site in general--
Rebecca

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ixturtle
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Re: Ready to dive in...

Postby ixturtle » Tue Jul 10, 2012 10:59 pm

Noticing that all this attempting to "look" is reinforcing an old pattern of unsuccessfully trying to control the mind, which we've already established I can't control-- it's exhausting and depressing.

Instead trying to relax with whatever is there with an awareness, as available, of the subtle distinction between real and imagined.

The contradictions of being on this site-- because obviously there is a desire for something to be different-- and noticing/surrendering to what is sends up red flags (or white ones?).
"I'm not going to get this" is not only a story, but also a story with a non-existent subject?
Right-- the statement is actually correct: "I" is not going to get this... hmmmmmm...
Will try to relax into this as best I can...

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Derek
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Re: Ready to dive in...

Postby Derek » Tue Jul 10, 2012 11:43 pm

Yes, a lot of people have that experience, where as soon as they notice what the mind is doing, they try to control it or change it. But I think you've realized that trying to change yourself is not what we're pointing to here. It's all about awareness, about pure noticing.

Re the contradiction that raises flags: If you're hungry, you eat. Opposition to reality would be trying to suppress or deny the feelings of hunger. But it's best not to get involved in thinking about how all this works. All that's needed is direct observation of what's really happening.

Ok, so you've seen that it's impossible for "I" to get this, because "I" is just a word, and a word can never GET anything. It's just a word.

Now, about "trying to relax." I'm not saying try to relax. But equally, I'm not saying don't try to relax. What I'm saying is observe this volitional activity.

Is there really a sort of inner controller making this (or any other) volitional activity happen?

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ixturtle
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Re: Ready to dive in...

Postby ixturtle » Wed Jul 11, 2012 5:03 pm

Is there really a sort of inner controller making this (or any other) volitional activity happen?
The felt sense (assumption?) is that there are varying degrees of volition. Somethings obviously happen regardless of "my" intention (like breathing/dreaming/running out of a tipi in a windstorm), somethings are suspiciously fuzzy ("I'm going to get up" followed by rolling over and going back to sleep) and somethings really feel like a decision. "OK, take a breath and relax." Breath happens and body feels more relaxed. "Now relax into the possibility of 'no-I". Awareness softens somehow.

HOWEVER, all these decisions/command statements are thoughts and I know (and can see when I really really look) that I'm not the inner controller of my thoughts. So who is driving "I'm going to get up" or "OK take a breath and relax?" These thoughts must arise based on conditions and programming. (I feel like we were here before, but this does seem to be the crux of it... "who's in charge.")

So the mind develops a scapegoat in a way-- a self-- and that self becomes the purported controller of all the mind's decisions. This idea of "self" then perceives itself and its relationship to the world as if it is responsible for every moment when in reality, it can't control anything because it's just an idea-- as you said, just a word. Thinking you're responsible for something that you have no control over is an excruciatingly painful thing indeed-- which gives rise to the self inflicted zen stick.

Seeing this in glimpses anyway...

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Eloratea
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Re: Ready to dive in...

Postby Eloratea » Wed Jul 11, 2012 7:36 pm

I feel like we were here before, but this does seem to be the crux of it... "who's in charge."
„Who“ is already an assumption! It comes from thinking, not looking!
Is there anyone in charge to be observed?
I there you anywhere except in thought?

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ixturtle
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Re: Ready to dive in...

Postby ixturtle » Wed Jul 11, 2012 7:53 pm

No worries Eloratea-- that's what I meant by that...
the assumption is that there is someone in charge and the reality, which i have a toe in at the moment, is that actually there's this mind that's firing and those impulses direct a body but there is no "thing" in charge.

the self is slippery though-- like one of those games where the monsters pop up and you try to squash them-- because while i'm rather enjoying not being in charge, there's a sense that "I" am rather enjoying not being in charge. ha ha ha...

yes, that "I" is also a thought, which I'm not in charge of... oh this is getting kinda funny.

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Eloratea
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Re: Ready to dive in...

Postby Eloratea » Wed Jul 11, 2012 8:03 pm

the self is slippery though-- like one of those games where the monsters pop up and you try to squash them-- because while i'm rather enjoying not being in charge, there's a sense that "I" am rather enjoying not being in charge. ha ha ha...
Joy of liberation? Glimpsing the consequences of non existence of self?
Is there you in way or form?


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