Ok, so do you see that you arent "doing" the emotions? that they are automatic responses to thoughts and events?
If I look at emotions, I know that e.g. I don't make myself sad in response to a sad event. I still don't see that I'm not “doing” the emotions, although I'm looking to see that. There is no “self” creating the emotions. They just happen.
Is this what you have seen for yourself, or is it something you have read? I ask because the weather analogy is something quite common in no self literature. You need to be really honest in this investigation. If you still have a subtle belief that you are thinking the thoughts, then say so.
When I think about it, I know that thoughts just appear on their own. That being said, I still think I believe I am thinking the the thoughts (along with creating emotions). I haven't let go of “me”. I'm trying to directly see/feel/know that thoughts (and emotions are not something I am in control of. I can think about thoughts and emotions all I want, but I can't make them be what I want them to be or make them come or go or be a certain way, just like I can think about rain, but I can't make it rain (the cloud thing above just came to me yesterday, and I've heard it a lot with regards to meditation with regards to sitting and just letting the thoughts come and go like clouds moving in the sky.
Every time I get questions from you it forces me (okay, there's no one forcing me, but I want to) to think about things and then I can see that there is nothing there. The questions are good as they help me look at things.
So the self, the you, is the one that is receiving thoughts?
There's the catch. If the self, the me is receiving thoughts, then how can I both make them and receive them since there's only one of me? There's no throwing/sending/creating and catching/receiving of thoughts. A thought just comes on it's own, you don't receive it. It's just there. There's no one making up/creating the thoughts and there's no one receiving the thoughts.
In the same way that you looked to see if you were "doing" the emotions, or thinking the thoughts, look and see if there is a you that is having the beliefs. How do they manifest themselves? How do you know what your beliefs are?
My beliefs about myself are different than others beliefs about me, which says to me that my beliefs are unstable. If they were stable, then they would be the same for everyone, me, my friends, everyone who knows me would have the same beliefs about who I am.
I don't know how you know what your beliefs are. Do “I” have beliefs? I guess I do, if I think that “I” exist. Who decided how “I” am defined? Who decided that “I” am defined in this way? Why didn't “I” decide to define my “self” in a different way? Who decided that “I” exist?
You trying to make things be the way you want them to be, is a part of everything already being as it is.
Yes, what would happen if you gave up your story of how things are?
There would be nothing to hold onto. No anchor for this boat. It's like a river that's going where it wants to go (thoughts and feelings come and go on their own). “I'm” standing on the side of the river trying to make it go where I want it to go. What would happen if I just jumped into the river and stopped trying to make it go where “I” want it to go? How do “I” stop my “self” from trying to direct the river? How do I get my “self” to see that “I” can't direct the river, and, in fact, there is no “me” trying to direct it? “I” can't direct it because it (thoughts, feelings, etc.) come and go on their own so where is the “I” in all of this? If you can see that the rivers flowing on it's own, then what's the point of an “I”?
If someone says something to you and the feeling of anger comes up, and you yell at them, can you instead watch the anger come up (You can't control it. It comes up on it's own.), and then not respond (e.g. not yell at the person)--Actually, there is no “you” to do the responding. I need to keep looking to see that there is no “me” to respond. If the feelings and emotions come up on their own, then were is the response coming from? Is there anyone there who decides to yell at the person in response to the thing they said and anger came up in you? The anger and the thoughts aren't you, and if they're not you, then who is you, or is there even a “you” to be there/to respond?
what is it that is attaching to the thoughts and feelings? When a thought comes up, what is it that makes you think its yours?
I have no idea what makes me think it's mine. I need to keep looking at that to see that there is no “me”.
I get the feeling that although you may have a vague intellectual idea of what this is about, you are a bit hazy on the main point.
This is definitely true (“spot on”).
There is no you, anywhere, and never has been.
This means that there is no you to attach , or not attach, to thoughts and feelings. No you to be liberated. No you to receive thoughts. No you to have, or give up, a story. None at all, anywhere.
What comes up for you, thoughts, feelings etc, when you read this?
“No you to be liberated”--that feels weird to me. I know intellectually that it's true, but I haven't had direct experience of it.
Btw, Im not asking you to just believe it. I am trying to point you to where you can have direct experience of no self.
Thanks! That's what I want.
You say that you havent directly experienced it, yet you say that you see that you are not doing thoughts.
Seeing that thoughts come up themselves, and that theres no-one doing them, is direct experience of no self.
Seeing that you are not doing, not having emotions,that they are automatic responses to thoughts and events, is direct experience of no self.
I need to keep looking at both thoughts and feelings to keep seeing that there is no “I” behind them, no one doing them.