Looking for 1 on 1

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neeeel
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Re: Looking for 1 on 1

Postby neeeel » Thu Jul 05, 2012 11:50 am

but it still feels like there is a substance to "me"
Ok, what is the substance to you that you feel? What makes it up? Whereabouts in the body is it located? How does it make its presence felt?
like a chair or a dog would be considered a thing/a something or some being
In reality, is there such a thing as "a chair"?

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GotIt
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Re: Looking for 1 on 1

Postby GotIt » Thu Jul 05, 2012 10:38 pm

Ok, what is the substance to you that you feel? What makes it up? Whereabouts in the body is it located? How does it make its presence felt?
It feels like there a mass of something in my chest, main body area. I have to look at it to see what makes it up. It comes up when I think about there being no me, and when I look for a me. Although it feels like a substance that's there, I have to look at it to if there's a 'who" or "what" or "me"ness to it.

I don't think chairs have a substance, and I'll look at if there is such a thing as a chair (which when I just thought about it, I realized that chairs are only chairs because we name them/call them "chairs".

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neeeel
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Re: Looking for 1 on 1

Postby neeeel » Fri Jul 06, 2012 1:20 pm


It feels like there a mass of something in my chest, main body area. I have to look at it to see what makes it up. It comes up when I think about there being no me, and when I look for a me. Although it feels like a substance that's there, I have to look at it to if there's a 'who" or "what" or "me"ness to it.
Sounds like fear. I could be wrong though.

Is this "substance" always in the chest area? Is the feeling of me constant? Or does it move around, and sometimes disappear , or at least you dont notice it?

This "me-ness", what is the me in this?

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GotIt
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Re: Looking for 1 on 1

Postby GotIt » Fri Jul 06, 2012 3:57 pm

Yes, It's probably fear. The feeling is there when I think about me.
Is this "substance" always in the chest area? Is the feeling of me constant? Or does it move around, and sometimes disappear , or at least you dont notice it?

This "me-ness", what is the me in this?
It's always in the chest area. It's not constant unless I think about it. I only notice it when I think about it. I'll have to look at what is the "me" ness in it.

One think that came to me briefly yesterday is the feeling that there are stories that are told about "me", e.g. stories that were told/are told that define "me" or defined/define the "me-ness", the "I", and they're not true, e.g things like I'm a nice person, or I'm a good driver. I'm not always a nice person, etc. so saying those stories and using them to define a "me" as was done when I was a child and as I keep living with and believing and picked them up to form a "me" isn't correct. I have to look at this more to get a better sense of it and what it looks like. I keep looking for an "I" behind things.

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neeeel
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Re: Looking for 1 on 1

Postby neeeel » Fri Jul 06, 2012 4:24 pm

Yes, It's probably fear. The feeling is there when I think about me.

It's always in the chest area. It's not constant unless I think about it. I only notice it when I think about it. I'll have to look at what is the "me" ness in it.
I guess the sense of substance in the chest area is always in the chest area, but is the sense of "me" always in that area? or can it move around?
It's not constant unless I think about it
Does this tell you anything about the sense of me?

What do you think the fear relates to, if it is in fact fear? What thoughts and feelings are behind, or causing , the fear?

One think that came to me briefly yesterday is the feeling that there are stories that are told about "me", e.g. stories that were told/are told that define "me" or defined/define the "me-ness", the "I", and they're not true, e.g things like I'm a nice person, or I'm a good driver. I'm not always a nice person, etc. so saying those stories and using them to define a "me" as was done when I was a child and as I keep living with and believing and picked them up to form a "me" isn't correct. I have to look at this more to get a better sense of it and what it looks like. I keep looking for an "I" behind things.
Yes, this is good. These stories that are told about you , you start believing them, they define you, as you say. Look at these stories. Are any of them true?

If you have all these stories about you, and believe them, what happens when these stories are challenged?

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GotIt
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Re: Looking for 1 on 1

Postby GotIt » Fri Jul 06, 2012 5:59 pm

Does this tell you anything about the sense of me?

What do you think the fear relates to, if it is in fact fear? What thoughts and feelings are behind, or causing , the fear?

I think the sense of me is probably only there when I pay attention to it. I have to look at this.

Fear: If it is fear (and I'm sure there's fear somewhere there), I think there's a fear of letting go of my "self" even though my "self" isn't real. There's a fear of change and what will happen if I let go. What happens if I stop believing the stories I tell myself about "me"?
Yes, this is good. These stories that are told about you , you start believing them, they define you, as you say. Look at these stories. Are any of them true?

If you have all these stories about you, and believe them, what happens when these stories are challenged?
I have to keep looking at the stories, what are all of the stories and are any of them true (from what I saw yesterday, none of them are, but I only saw a couple of them yesterday, so I'll keep looking).

When these stories are challenged, I get defensive, and I try to prove that the challengers are wrong. I think I also look to see where the story is correct ("I AM a nice person, here's why, here's where I was nice, etc., etc.). I also protect the story of me to keep it, to keep the "me" and the this is who I am. Oh, I'm going to look, but I think I also put down other people and their stories when they say or do something that "I" don't like or that "I" disagree with in order to keep my "me/self". It's okay if I do "x" because I'm a nice person or whatever, but if she does "x" then I label her as a jerk or whatever.

I think I also get scared when the stories of "me" are challenged. I have to look more at this, but I think I get afraid of being found out (of people finding out that I'm not the person I think I am). I think I then try to protect my "self".

I'm going to keep looking at "my" stories.

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neeeel
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Re: Looking for 1 on 1

Postby neeeel » Fri Jul 06, 2012 7:07 pm

Yes, keep looking at the stories. Who or what is the "I" that is in these stories?

Look into the fear, both the "mass of something in my chest", and the fear that is produced when the stories of you are challenged. Fear is a natural protection mechanism.
What is there to protect? Is there an "I" to protect? Are there any stories to protect?

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GotIt
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Re: Looking for 1 on 1

Postby GotIt » Sat Jul 07, 2012 7:42 am

Look into the fear, both the "mass of something in my chest", and the fear that is produced when the stories of you are challenged. Fear is a natural protection mechanism.
Briefly, I think the fear when the stories are being challenged is a fear of being found out, a fear of being found to be a fake (e.g. I'm not always a nice person.). I'm also afraid of letting go of the "I" because I don't know what will happen if I let go of it (and looking at it, it feels like this is going to go around in circles to a confusing point where I see that "I" don't exist, and "I" am afraid to let go of the "I", and you can't have it both ways, so you have to do something.).

I'm going to keep looking at the above and your other questions and will get back to you later.

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neeeel
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Re: Looking for 1 on 1

Postby neeeel » Sun Jul 08, 2012 8:05 pm

so how is your looking going?

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GotIt
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Re: Looking for 1 on 1

Postby GotIt » Sun Jul 08, 2012 9:48 pm

I was looking a lot today and haven't seen much.

What I did notice:

I have always said I wanted this (to see no "self", get through the gate, etc.). What I noticed today is that I ("I"?) don't want it. Note: this doesn't mean I'm stopping the looking at all, or that I don't want to do this process with you anymore. It just means that there seems to me to be a big "I" part of me that doesn't want to find out the truth. I have to look at this.

There's a fear of ceasing to exist, like a fear of not even continuing to breath if I let go or whatever, like the body will just stop being and doing. I know this won't happen because the body breaths, etc. on it's own with no one controlling it but I think there's a fear of it happening.

I haven't seen anymore stories I was told about myself, but I did make a list today of things I was told (like I'm a girl) to help me see more stories. I know there are some things I was told that aren't true (I was told we don't have feelings, e.g. we don't get angry--I dealt with this untruth a long time ago, and know that it's not true.). I was looking to see the stories that I was told that I know aren't true, e.g. everything my parents told me wasn't true, so how do I know that what I believe about everything they told me is true--like a belief in a "self"?).

I did see something in a statue I was looking at today. The statue looked one way (had ridges) when I looked at it from one direction, and then looked another way (was smooth) when I looked at it from the other direction. It made me aware of how we see the gate, e.g. we think there is something that is a reality (a totally true, existing self), and when we see/realize the truth (that there is no real "self" anywhere), we know there is no "self". What I mean to say is that the going away of the self/the seeing the truth of no "self" isn't something that happens like fireworks going off, but is just a slow, smooth, awareness that happens (e.g. no big event or anything, rather, just a waking up to the truth of no "self"). It helped me see how we can look at something and see/think that it is one way when it isn't.

I had the analogy today of a milk bottling plant where the milk goes into the bottles on it's own, and some milk gets things added to it, like chocolate or strawberry flavorings. The flavorings are like emotions that just get added to a person automatically.

What I can't see is that there is no one turning on the switch to start the milk going into the bottles.

Cow and a calf: The cow doesn't decide to let the milk out when the calf puts it's mouth on the udder. The muscles in the calf's mouth working on the udder make the milk come out.

I think there's just a person (a baby) doing what it does (breathing, eating, receiving feelings/emotions come up, etc.) and then people come along and tell it the stories about itself, and it believes those stories and then it tries to live from those stories and takes them on as it's own (self), and it doesn't work (e.g. we get mad at someone who does something we don't like or agree with, etc.), and it keeps working to validate the stories about it"self".

There's no one that started the baby breathing or having feelings or tastes or sensations, etc. they just started happening on their own in the baby.

Okay, the above is probably just waste of time stories. I'll keep looking to see if there is anyone turning on the switch. I should also probably look to see if there is even a switch to be turned on.

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neeeel
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Re: Looking for 1 on 1

Postby neeeel » Mon Jul 09, 2012 3:36 am


I have always said I wanted this (to see no "self", get through the gate, etc.). What I noticed today is that I ("I"?) don't want it. Note: this doesn't mean I'm stopping the looking at all, or that I don't want to do this process with you anymore. It just means that there seems to me to be a big "I" part of me that doesn't want to find out the truth. I have to look at this.

There's a fear of ceasing to exist, like a fear of not even continuing to breath if I let go or whatever, like the body will just stop being and doing. I know this won't happen because the body breaths, etc. on it's own with no one controlling it but I think there's a fear of it happening.
The fear is a natural response to the threatening thought. Let it come, dont push it away. Its there to protect you? In reality, though, is there a you to protect? Can this thought of "ceasing to exist" do anything to you? Will you cease to exist if you see through the lie of self?

Cow and a calf: The cow doesn't decide to let the milk out when the calf puts it's mouth on the udder. The muscles in the calf's mouth working on the udder make the milk come out.
Do you decide to let the thoughts and emotions out? Or do they happen in response to stuff? This is a good analogy, and its good to look at nature and see how stuff happens, seemingly without any selves doing it( do cows, dogs, spiders, fleas, amoebas have selves?)
Thinking of analogies is ok, but better is looking and seeing if the analogies are true. So look at how things happen in your life.

Dont think of a banana. Did you think of a banana? Why do you think it happened? Was there a you anywhere in the process?

Close your eyes and listen to a sound. In that sound, is there a you anywhere? There may be thoughts floating about of "I heard that " or " lovely sound " or whatever, but in the actual hearing of the sound, is there a you?

Okay, the above is probably just waste of time stories.
I agree that theres a few stories there,some hypotheticals and analogies. It seems like you are still trying to arrive at an answer by thinking about things, rather than looking. But theres some good stuff too. It appears that you are investigating deeper, looking at what is true and what isnt. Question everything.

Keep looking !!! Stop thinking !!!!

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GotIt
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Re: Looking for 1 on 1

Postby GotIt » Mon Jul 09, 2012 4:22 am

Can this thought of "ceasing to exist" do anything to you?
It really can't since my body isn't under my control, since my body is going to do what it does no matter what I do, or what happens to me (It breathes when it breathes, and it will die when it dies.).
is there a you to protect?
No, because you can't protect a nothing. If thoughts, feelings/emotions and sensations arise on their own, then there is no one and nothing behind them so there is no one to protect. I have to keep looking at this (thoughts, feelings/emotions and sensations arise on their own) to see it more and more.
Do you decide to let the thoughts and emotions out?
No, they come out on their own. They come out in response to stuff that happens.
Dont think of a banana. Did you think of a banana? Why do you think it happened? Was there a you anywhere in the process?
Yes, I thought of a banana. I think it happened because your brain just reacts to a sound, to a request being made. There was no "me" anywhere in the process.
In that sound, is there a you anywhere?
No. It's just a sound, and it happens so fast you don't even know it's happened--You've paid attention to the sound before you even realize you've paid attention to it. If you've paid attention to the sound before you even realize you've paid attention to it, then you're living your life on looking back at what happened, and you're not being with things as they happen, which means there's no "you" there in the middle of things, and if there's no "you" there in the middle of things, then who's looking back at things and where is the "you" in all of this--is there a "you" in all of this? Me talking out loud to myself again.
Keep looking !!! Stop thinking !!!!


Will do.

Me thinking out loud to myself: Yes, maybe I do want to analyze everything out. Things happen really fast (like hearing a sound), stop taking things apart and analyzing them, and just observe them as they happen (pay attention fast as things happen fast).

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neeeel
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Re: Looking for 1 on 1

Postby neeeel » Mon Jul 09, 2012 1:12 pm


No. It's just a sound, and it happens so fast you don't even know it's happened--You've paid attention to the sound before you even realize you've paid attention to it. If you've paid attention to the sound before you even realize you've paid attention to it, then you're living your life on looking back at what happened, and you're not being with things as they happen, which means there's no "you" there in the middle of things, and if there's no "you" there in the middle of things, then who's looking back at things and where is the "you" in all of this--is there a "you" in all of this? Me talking out loud to myself again.


Is there a you to pay attention to the sound? Can you find the experiencer of the sound? At the time the sound happens, is there a sound, and an experiencer of the sound? A lot of the above paragraph is thoughts about sound, and what it means if .... Instead, really look at what happens when sounds are heard. Ignore all thoughts, all deductions, and just look.

Me thinking out loud to myself: Yes, maybe I do want to analyze everything out. Things happen really fast (like hearing a sound), stop taking things apart and analyzing them, and just observe them as they happen (pay attention fast as things happen fast).
Yes. Difficult to do maybe, but keep working at it. Observe things as they happen. Observe how thoughts come up spontaneously about the things you observe. Remember, thoughts are "things that happen" too.

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GotIt
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Re: Looking for 1 on 1

Postby GotIt » Mon Jul 09, 2012 5:56 pm

Is there a you to pay attention to the sound? Can you find the experiencer of the sound? At the time the sound happens, is there a sound, and an experiencer of the sound? A lot of the above paragraph is thoughts about sound, and what it means if .... Instead, really look at what happens when sounds are heard. Ignore all thoughts, all deductions, and just look.
There's no me to pay attention to the sound. The sound just happens and it just gets received by my ears and then my brain interprets it. My brain reacts to it (emotions like I don't like that. It's too loud, etc. happen. I get mad because the noise/sound of someone talking interrupted my focus on this, etc.). There's a sound and then an emotion comes up (sound comes first, then the emotion, I have to look for the doer/me/I in all of this--Is there a doer, is there a doing that is being done by someone?--me asking myself these questions to look at.).

I have to watch sound to see this (that it's just a sound with no experiencer).

I like the examples you've sent, like listening to a sound, think of a banana, etc. as they are helpful in seeing things (like that there's no "me").

I'll keep working on just being aware of things as they happen without analyzing them.

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neeeel
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Re: Looking for 1 on 1

Postby neeeel » Mon Jul 09, 2012 6:44 pm


There's no me to pay attention to the sound. The sound just happens and it just gets received by my ears and then my brain interprets it.
Do you have direct experience of the sound getting received by the ears and then interpreted by the brain? Or is that just thoughts about what happens, ideas and concepts that you have been taught?
What can you perceive only in direct experience?

My brain reacts to it (emotions like I don't like that. It's too loud, etc. happen. I get mad because the noise/sound of someone talking interrupted my focus on this, etc.). There's a sound and then an emotion comes up (sound comes first, then the emotion, I have to look for the doer/me/I in all of this--Is there a doer, is there a doing that is being done by someone?--me asking myself these questions to look at.).
Is there a you asking yourself all these questions? Or is that on automatic too?
Is there a you that gets mad because the noise interrupts you? Or is the getting mad an automatic response to the sound?



I like the examples you've sent, like listening to a sound, think of a banana, etc. as they are helpful in seeing things (like that there's no "me").

I'll keep working on just being aware of things as they happen without analyzing them.
If you were doing the analysing, then surely you could just stop ? So stop. You cant? Why not?

Remember that analysing is one of the "things that happen" and so being aware that analysing is happening is useful. At the moment the analysing is distracting you, but observe how its all happening, including the analysing.


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