I Need Guidance

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Noobstorm
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Re: I Need Guidance

Postby Noobstorm » Wed Jul 04, 2012 8:43 pm

Some thoughts that come up: "I am observing",....
Let's try an experiment with sound (it's easier than observing/seeing). If you have a brass bowl you will get a longer lasting sound, but if not a cup and a spoon will do. Tap the rim of the bowl (or cup) and listen with eyes closed. Thoughts will intercede but discount them (as much as you can). Immerse in the sound. See if you can find a 'spot' where the sound is all, even if for a millisecond. Once this experiencing happens it will be seen that 'you' are the sound. It's not happening TO you. Only deductions say that. It's not outside you, like mind might try to tell you. There is no separate person listening, it takes thought to imagine that. The Sound IS you. You Are the sound. There is no separation. The sound only exists because it is being heard, just as the hearer only exists because of the sound.
Don't think About it. Do the exercise and experience it.

All I can say about the experiment is that the sound is heard.

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vinceschubert
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Re: I Need Guidance

Postby vinceschubert » Wed Jul 04, 2012 11:08 pm

All I can say about the experiment is that the sound is heard.
Ali, you are expressing the concept of hearing which is something you learned. (although this might just be a language thing)
If you meant "there is sound-ing" or "just sound" or even "there is hearing"...
Either way, was there a you involved ?

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Noobstorm
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Re: I Need Guidance

Postby Noobstorm » Wed Jul 04, 2012 11:55 pm

All I can say about the experiment is that the sound is heard.
Ali, you are expressing the concept of hearing which is something you learned. (although this might just be a language thing)
If you meant "there is sound-ing" or "just sound" or even "there is hearing"...
Either way, was there a you involved ?
Thanks for making sense out of this.
There was no self involved.. there was just sound.

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vinceschubert
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Re: I Need Guidance

Postby vinceschubert » Thu Jul 05, 2012 12:39 am

So with this experiencing, can you see that the whole mind/body exists only as experiencing. There is feeling, sounding, thinking etc. That is all. The how and the why are mysteries. It is best to treat experiencing as causeless for practical purposes.
Just as the body takes care of digestion automatically, thinking is automatic too but there is value here in seeing that it happens as a response to stimuli such as other thought and external circumstances. The Nature of thought is primarily due to conditioning. The learned.
When you can see that this was always the case. That everything, always happened this way, that the controlling self was just an overlay that mind did, then there is a letting go, a relaxing into Life-ing.
Ali, write a response to this.

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Noobstorm
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Re: I Need Guidance

Postby Noobstorm » Thu Jul 05, 2012 2:28 am

So with this experiencing, can you see that the whole mind/body exists only as experiencing. There is feeling, sounding, thinking etc. That is all. The how and the why are mysteries. It is best to treat experiencing as causeless for practical purposes.
Just as the body takes care of digestion automatically, thinking is automatic too but there is value here in seeing that it happens as a response to stimuli such as other thought and external circumstances. The Nature of thought is primarily due to conditioning. The learned.
When you can see that this was always the case. That everything, always happened this way, that the controlling self was just an overlay that mind did, then there is a letting go, a relaxing into Life-ing.
Ali, write a response to this.
You are saying everything is already happening without being controlled? Sorry but I just don't see this.

You and me have a body & mind. I call it "I" what difference does it make? What is the difference between me and you?

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vinceschubert
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Re: I Need Guidance

Postby vinceschubert » Thu Jul 05, 2012 4:50 am

You are saying everything is already happening without being controlled?
Yes, without control but with interference, which results in distortion.
What is the difference between me and you?
the difference is that here there is seeing that the self if just an idea, whereas you seem to think that there is a mini you inside pulling levers and controlling things.
Do you remember the video you watched a few weeks ago ? Do you remember the bit at the end where they showed that the mind comes to a decision some 6 seconds after the brain had decided ?
Obviously the brain decides based on external circumstances plus previous experience etc. but the mind ignores this and says it made the decision, thus perpetuating the illusion that it is in control.
Would you call the brain your 'self' or the mind ?

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Noobstorm
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Re: I Need Guidance

Postby Noobstorm » Thu Jul 05, 2012 4:55 am

Would you call the brain your 'self' or the mind ?
By mind you mean thought?

I would call the brain myself. So I is referring to the brain which makes the decisions.

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vinceschubert
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Re: I Need Guidance

Postby vinceschubert » Thu Jul 05, 2012 8:07 am

By mind you mean thought?
Yes, i see mind just as a bus stop for thoughts.
I would call the brain myself.
Surely the brain is just the brain?
Why not call the eyes, or ears or your big toe yourself ? Isn't the brain just another (clever) organ ? Just part of the body ?
You can build a story around that sound. You can describe how the ear interacts with vibrating air and sends a merve impulse to the brain, and the brain checks it database against previous experiencing and uses the difference in the signals that are received by each ear to calculate the direction and distance of the origin of the vibrating air, etc, but none of that story was part of your experiencing sound-ing.
You were the sound. The sound was you. There was no separation. There was no object. All was subject. There was only Sound-ing.

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Trevor
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Re: I Need Guidance

Postby Trevor » Thu Jul 05, 2012 6:51 pm

Thanks Trevor.
You've seen that If you take away the assumption of a separate self, in reality, you find none.
I haven't quite seen this yet, but I will do as you said throughout the day and let you know if I have any more doubts.

This is ever so simple Ali. You just have to see one thing - There is no you - and it doesn't more than a moment to see it.

Wherever you are, whatever you're doing, right now, there may be thoughts, feelings, decisions, sights and sounds but there is no thing called 'me'. Look at this. Try this out. Notice that there's just ideas and emotions about what is happening and no you.

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Noobstorm
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Re: I Need Guidance

Postby Noobstorm » Fri Jul 06, 2012 5:11 am

Thanks Trevor.
You've seen that If you take away the assumption of a separate self, in reality, you find none.
I haven't quite seen this yet, but I will do as you said throughout the day and let you know if I have any more doubts.

This is ever so simple Ali. You just have to see one thing - There is no you - and it doesn't more than a moment to see it.

Wherever you are, whatever you're doing, right now, there may be thoughts, feelings, decisions, sights and sounds but there is no thing called 'me'. Look at this. Try this out. Notice that there's just ideas and emotions about what is happening and no you.
Maybe I understand this only intellectually, or maybe I just have a strong belief in my self. :S But I just don't see that I don't exist.

By mind you mean thought?
Yes, i see mind just as a bus stop for thoughts.
I would call the brain myself.
Surely the brain is just the brain?
Why not call the eyes, or ears or your big toe yourself ? Isn't the brain just another (clever) organ ? Just part of the body ?
You can build a story around that sound. You can describe how the ear interacts with vibrating air and sends a merve impulse to the brain, and the brain checks it database against previous experiencing and uses the difference in the signals that are received by each ear to calculate the direction and distance of the origin of the vibrating air, etc, but none of that story was part of your experiencing sound-ing.
You were the sound. The sound was you. There was no separation. There was no object. All was subject. There was only Sound-ing.
Yes, the brain is just the brain. I suppose an I person gets created to claim ownership over this life.

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vinceschubert
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Re: I Need Guidance

Postby vinceschubert » Fri Jul 06, 2012 8:32 am

I just don't see that I don't exist.
You do exist.
You exist in the same way that Batman or Santa Clause exists. Only the difference is a belief.
And a belief is always about a concept (a story).
The fact that you can't see this does not alter the fact of it.
an I person gets created to claim ownership
Exactly. Tell me how that I gets created ?

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Noobstorm
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Re: I Need Guidance

Postby Noobstorm » Fri Jul 06, 2012 11:29 am

an I person gets created to claim ownership
Exactly. Tell me how that I gets created ?
Okay I think this is how it works correct me if I'm wrong.

At a very young age someone is given an identity. They are to assume control over the organism, which clouds there natural state. I think the natural state is something like this: All the processes and decisions of the body happen on there own.

So then they start forming a story around this new identity, I, with certain likes/dislikes, feelings, personality, etc.

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vinceschubert
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Re: I Need Guidance

Postby vinceschubert » Fri Jul 06, 2012 12:48 pm

correct me if I'm wrong
Yes, this is exactly how it happens.
So Ali, if you see how it is (and you do), why do you say that there is an actual self that controls things ?

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Noobstorm
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Re: I Need Guidance

Postby Noobstorm » Fri Jul 06, 2012 7:11 pm

correct me if I'm wrong
Yes, this is exactly how it happens.
So Ali, if you see how it is (and you do), why do you say that there is an actual self that controls things ?
I don't see this clearly enough, maybe this is just a theory for me.

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vinceschubert
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Re: I Need Guidance

Postby vinceschubert » Fri Jul 06, 2012 10:55 pm

I don't see this clearly enough, maybe this is just a theory for me.
Ah!, now i get it. (i think)
How will you know when it is more than a theory ?, when you really See it ?


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