RaamS

[indianguy]

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this?
I've learnt from books and online satsangs that what I take myself to be (my self) is a collection of thoughts that I have gathered. To see what I truly am, I must authentically enquire into the beliefs that I haven't hitherto questioned, and observe the nature of my experience without them. I believe that I'll get help with questioning myself here

What are you looking for at LU?
I consider self realization as the most important pursuit of my life.

I have spent a long time studying Advaitic (Hindu) texts, attended several online Satsangs and a few online Retreats with people who, I believe, have had spiritual awakenings. I watch videos of teachers like Teja Anand, Dr. Angelo Dillulo and Rupert Spira and have approached some of these teachers with questions - particularly subjective ones about my own practices and experience, often over email, with the objective of waking up. However, my interactions with these teachers have largely been as part of a group, and I haven't had any spiritual experience so far. That is not my expectation or wish here, but not having had any, makes me wonder if I have made any progress at all so far. I have felt the need for a personal guide on the path towards self realization and was also advised by Dr. Dillulo that I must try to find one. I hope to be able to receive some guidance in seeing through the beliefs about myself that I haven't yet questioned, and to be able to see through the illusion of a local self.

I am willing to have my ideas of self realization questioned or even proven wrong, in the hope of going further towards the truth, and sincerely wish and pray that this endeavour takes me to self realization in this lifetime.

What do you expect from a guided conversation?
Although I have had the privilege of interacting with some people who, I believe, have awakened and have even become liberated, a personal guidance is something that has been largely lacking in my life. At best, I have had the occasional email connect with a teacher, or a chance to talk to one in an online group setting, but besides that, my spiritual journey has largely been me watching non duality videos or reading books alone. Due to this, I believe there are enough aspects of myself that I have taken for granted and haven't even realized I should question. I am hoping to have guidance in terms of what questions I should be asking myself and the perspectives from which I must examine myself to remove my beliefs.

I would also really love to have the privilege of some directed guidance or even criticism applicable specifically to me on this path since it's basically been just me pulling myself to approach different teachers and programmes.

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry?
I am a 31 year old Indian who grew up visiting Ramana Maharshi's Ashram in Tamil Nadu, whose works I started studying since the age of 15 ot 16. Arund this time, I also got exposed to teachings of Advaita Vedanta through discourses by prominent speakers from South India. I grew up regularly spending time with sannyasis and while I cannot say clearly since when, the wish for liberation in the Hindu Advaitic perspective has been a wish since a young age. A little over three years ago, I got in touch with a Western non duality teacher called Teja Anand over Quora, whose online satsangs I started attending on a regular basis. Here we would do some self enquiry together, followed by a talk and some Q&A over a Zoom call sometimes weekly and sometimes fortnightly. Teja would also conduct online retreats a couple of times each year, every single one of which I have attended so far, ever since I got to know of them.

I also regularly listen to Youtube talks by Rupert Spira, Dr. Angelo Dillulo, Moojiji, Nargis Allegria and others. I have attended online retreats by Rupert and Angelo and approach Angelo with questions. I tery my best to apply the practices of self enquiry, dissociation from thought, attention to sensation and living in the present moment as suggested by these teachers. I would not consider myself extremely disciplined but I try to set aside some time at least once in a couple of days if not every single day for self enquiry and meditation.

Besides these, I am a practising Hindu and try to align my religious practices as supplements to my spiritual progress, trying to meditate or enquire when at a temple or sometimes even when carrying out my usual prayers.

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self?
9

[JonathanR]

Hello Indian guy,

What name would you like me to use? My name is Jon and I guide here.

I've read your introduction and am offering to point for you, if you like?

What we would do here is simply have a conversation, a chat as between friends, if you like. All our efforts would focus on you making the realisation that there is no separate self. I would tend to ask questions and it would be for you to take a look to find any answers.

. To see what I truly am, I must authentically enquire into the beliefs that I haven't hitherto questioned, and observe the nature of my experience without them. I believe that I'll get help with questioning myself here

Thats a reasonable expectation. But now, do you have any other expectations of this inquiry? It's important at the start, if you can, to list any and all expectations. If so please describe them.

Please aim to post once a day and I will do likewise. Let me know if this isn't possible for any reason?

Also, please set aside any teachings, books,satsangs, videos or recordings by spiritual teachers during our conversation. Let me know if you can't do this?

. I am a practising Hindu and try to align my religious practices as supplements to my spiritual progress, trying to meditate or enquire when at a temple or sometimes even when carrying out my usual prayers.

Very pleased to meet you. I look forward to hearing from you.


Warm regards

Jon

[indianguy]

Hello Jon,

It is wonderful to hear from you. Thank you very much for offering to help me, Jon, I feel blessed to have someone offer to help me with inquiry on a personal level.

I am comfortable being called Raam.

I would love to take your help and pointing, and look forward to chatting with you, to looking within, with the pointers you provide, and to report to you as to what I find.

Regarding my other expectations of this inquiry/realization:
1. Besides the expectation I elaborated in the introduction, I am hoping that this enquiry makes me a little more authentic. From my personal experiential standpoint, I find that a lot of things that I desire can, at best, just get rid of the desire and return me to a familiar state of contentedness. However, things in life have put me in a position where I find it impossible to function without desire or ambition, particularly in the workplace. So there is often an oscillation between comfort, a desire or discomfort and an attempt to return to comfort, which I call as "putting out fires". I am okay with any of these constraints and the changes that they may bring to the character of who I am, but I am genuinely interested in knowing if there is more that the part of me that is just putting out fires and making life more comfortable. The activities I am indulging in are okay, I am fine with my excitement or boredom with them, with my desire to change some aspects of my environment and with the successes and failures that come with them. However, I would like to see, for myself, if there truly is a part of me that is more authentic and more true, and more truly one with me than this aspect that i am familiar with.

2. I hope that the inquiry significantly more accepting of death. Right now, I find myself wanting to do everything I can to realize before I die, and am gripped with an additional layer of fear apart from the fear of death that I believe most people have, during times like when I sense danger. There is a feeling that I have not yet done all that I can to devote myself to trying to realize. I am not looking for a specific outcome with respect to this fear, but would like to just address this on a very sincere level because it feels like an authentic pointing in me to look for something within.

3. Based on the teachings I have read and listened to, I have been trying to minimize my expectations with Self Realization, but would like to tell you what other aspects I've heard about it that contribute to driving it. I am not as staunch a believer in religion anymore as I used to be, but I continue to follow it. However, there is the feeling that if religion is right about the theory of rebirth, I would like to be free from the possibility of rebirth. This is definitely a belief even though I use the term "if there is such a thing as rebirth". The true answer is that I do not know if it is true, and if this realization can really free me from that, but based on what I have heard and read, going through this inquiry feels like the best way I can do justice to this possibility, and I would like to give a sincere try for it.

Although such expectations are based on some beliefs, I would like to confirm, sincerely, that I am willing to accept if something is not the way I think it is. I am willing to try my best to accept the truth the way it really is rather than to demand for it to be the way I would like.

Regarding your subsequent requests/suggestions:

I will try my best to post once a day, Jon, and will inform you in case I am unable to do so at any point.

As suggested, I will set aside books, teachings, satsangs, videos and recordings by spiritual teachers during our exchange. I do not have any difficulty in doing so.

I am delighted to meet you as well, Jon.

Kind regards,
Raam

[JonathanR]

Hi Raam

. Thank you very much for offering to help me, Jon, I feel blessed to have someone offer to help me with inquiry on a personal level.

You're very welcome.

. Although such expectations are based on some beliefs, I would like to confirm, sincerely, that I am willing to accept if something is not the way I think it is. I am willing to try my best to accept the truth the way it really is rather than to demand for it to be the way I would like.

That's a very helpful attitude Raam. I can tell that you are flexible around the expectations you've listed.

Thank you for trying to post once a day and for putting other teachings to one side for the duration of our conversation.

So, let's start with this question: what is your current understanding of what 'you' are?

You have obviously spent some time and attention already on self-inquiry and you may have learned answers to the question I just posted. Try not to answer from theory or learned knowledge , or by quoting what this or that spiritual teacher might say . Instead, go by your gut feeling,

All best

Jon

[indianguy]

Dear Jon,

Thank you very much:)

I tried to give a few minutes to the question several times today, hoping to make it an honest, personal reply with minimum reference to the info and ideas I have gathered through books, videos and other forms of teachings.

My current understanding of what I am:
When I sit down to see what I am right now, it feels like what I am is an entity which is hiding at a place that is probably a little deeper inside. But the feeling of a deeper "space" inside what I see when I close my eyes feels like a construction made of thought, so to try and look in that space feels like it will not clarify anything. However, even though I am not able to find it, it feels almost as if I have always known, that there is a small limited entity somehow connected to the body which is what I am.

Even when I then try to sit back and just be whatever I already am, it still feels like I am a tiny entity connected somehow to the body, and through this connection, it feels the sensations and feelings detected by the body.

It feels almost clear during times of discomfort from a sensation in the neck while trying to meditate, or at times of some physical or emotional pain as if this entity is the one who is suffering. At times when the discomfort or physical pain is a little intense, it feels impossible to move attention from this discomfort or pain that this entity that I am, is feeling.

So, to summarize, I would say that it feels like I am a small entity somehow connected to the body and mind (the mind also, because of the capability of feeling emotional pain) and is capable of suffering.

It feels like it did not choose to be here and is now frustrated at the fact that it needs to do something to get out of this "mess of identification". It feels comfortable with saying these things when they have a name, because it makes "mess of identification" an object to feel something about. I am not sure if this part of me understands that this is the part I should let go of. And I don't think I know how to do that.

I hope this gives you some idea of how I feel. I would love to try and elaborate more if I am able to put it into words.

Regards,
Raam

[JonathanR]

Hello Raam

. I hope this gives you some idea of how I feel. I would love to try and elaborate more if I am able to put it into words.

I think that you gave a helpful picture of what you feel "you" are , especially under stressful conditions such as pain.

(By the way, do you notice that I'm using the "quote" function , from above, to highlight selected parts of your text ? You can do this too fairly easily. If you ever need to quote just cut and paste the text and insert it between the two cursors.

Would you say that the impression is often that you are "inside the body? Or "inside your head"? It is fine to be specific about this in your answer.

Jon

[indianguy]

Hello Jon,

By the way, do you notice that I'm using the "quote" function , from above, to highlight selected parts of your text ? You can do this too fairly easily. If you ever need to quote just cut and paste the text and insert it between the two cursors.

Thanks for the tip about the "quote" function, it will definitely help me.

Would you say that the impression is often that you are "inside the body? Or "inside your head"?

Most of the time, it feels like it is somewhere in the body, particularly somewhere behind the chest. At times, if I feel some heaviness in my head, and then sit down to enquire, it feels natural to be "in myself" when Irest somewhere in the head, but this is less often.

Some elaboration on the topic that I believe, might be relevant:
When I was younger, perhaps around a decade ago, I read and misunderstood a question that Sri Ramana Maharshi was pressed to answer, where he stated that the "I" sense is often found somewhere in the chest area, about two digits to the right from the centre of the rib. Subsequent to this, I used to imagine some point inside the chest, in this region, and try to focus "deeply" here as if that would reveal the "I" like a light source somewhere here. I was not a very regulator then, but had sort of convinced myself that I did indeed feel my "I" sense here.

It was several years before I got out of this routine and tried to look for what felt like me by actually looking at the feeling of I rather than at a point or region in space. I tried to make enquiry a curious, authentic activity based on what truly felt like where I am, rather than trying to conform to my inadequate understanding of a teaching.

Now, when I just look for the I-feeling, I would not exactly even say that it is in the chest area - that would be an answer only if I have to pick a region in space. The most honest answer would be that it feels it's "behind".

At times, it is probably in a region that is vaguely behind the chest, and at times, if some focus naturally goes to this region, it feels like I'm looking "down" for something that is an object of consciousness rather than consciousness itself, and I let my attention to go wherever it feels like I'm closest to myself. At times like these (including right now, as I write this), it feels like I'm probably somewhere behind the face region rather than the chest, particularly because I have been feeling some heaviness in the head region.

A little over two weeks ago, an Indian saint whom I considered one of my spiritual and religious teachers passed away, and the grief associated with his passing seems to have concentrated somewhere in the head region as a bit of a pressure-like feeling, and this is something I'd correlate with me feeling that the I-feeling is somewhere behind the face.

I guess that sums up how I feel about this, Jon.

Kind regards,,
Raam

[JonathanR]

Hello Raam

I'm glad that you found the "quote" function

. I guess that sums up how I feel about this, Jon.

That's all very helpful and useful.

. It was several years before I got out of this routine and tried to look for what felt like me by actually looking at the feeling of I rather than at a point or region in space.

It's very good that you made this change. In the inquiry here at LU it is looking at sensations, thoughts and so on, to find out what's actually going on , rather than believing in some untested and assumed truth
.
Here is an exercise. Try to do it to the letter, (although not in a tense or excessively mindful way.)...

The words on this screen are seen. But what is it that is doing the seeing?

Conventionally it is said that it is "eyes" (that are "the body" that is "me" that is doing the seeing).

Look at the actual experience right here and now. Is it "eyes" that are "seeing"? Is "a body" doing the seeing? What is happening in experience? Is it that seeing is just happening?

All best

Jon

[indianguy]

Hello Jon,

Thank you so much for reading through my post, for the feedback on my current method of enquiry, and most of all for such a prompt reply.

Here is an exercise. Try to do it to the letter, (although not in a tense or excessively mindful way.)...

The words on this screen are seen. But what is it that is doing the seeing?

Conventionally it is said that it is "eyes" (that are "the body" that is "me" that is doing the seeing).

Look at the actual experience right here and now. Is it "eyes" that are "seeing"? Is "a body" doing the seeing? What is happening in experience? Is it that seeing is just happening?

I will spend some time on this exercise, and will respond with how it felt and what I find, by tomorrow.

Kind regards,
Raam

[JonathanR]

That's great Raam,

I look forward to hearing from you

Jon

[indianguy]

Dear Jon,

Conventionally it is said that it is "eyes" (that are "the body" that is "me" that is doing the seeing).

Look at the actual experience right here and now. Is it "eyes" that are "seeing"? Is "a body" doing the seeing? What is happening in experience? Is it that seeing is just happening?

When specifically doing the exercise with the words on this screen, my mind got a little entangled in reading and interpreting the meanings of the words. So, there are parts of the exercise that I did with the words itself and parts where I tried focussing on the blank regions of the screen, to ensure that the activity was just "seeing" and not "reading" or "understanding".

It is clear that the eyes are only the means that allow the activity of seeing to take place. It is hard to put a clear subject on the seeing, as the one who sees, but it is clearly known that seeing is taking place.

When trying to look for the one who sees, there's a slight shift of attention towards somewhere behind the eyes or rather, just within, in search of whatever it is that is seeing. So, when I was looking for what is seeing, the activity of seeing itself got aa little less intense although it was going on in the background. It feels a little futile and it's just blank, I'm not able to say much. "I don't know" is the best I can say about this.

When I look, with eyes closed, in a more subjective manner, for myself rather than for another entity that is doing the seeing, there is some perception of a neutral presence. I don't know if this presence can actually "do" seeing. To say that this presence is doing the seeing feels incomplete. I guess it knows that seeing is happening, but it knows in a passive manner - without even trying.

An attempt to look further. A lot of this portion just feels like thoughts, but I wanted to share them anyway, in case it will help you understand where I am, a little better:
In trying to put this experience into words, I feel like my mental activity is trying a little too hard, and even making the description slightly inauthentic. The mental deliberation to somehow explain this feels like it rises not from within the presence but as if from its periphery or circumference, that seems like it's sort of encompassing the neutrality and the sensation of seeing.

The part about it being blank, and that "I don't know" feels like the most honest, most authentic thing I am able to say about this.

Regards,
Raam

[JonathanR]

Hello Raam

. In trying to put this experience into words, I feel like my mental activity is trying a little too hard, and even making the description slightly inauthentic. The mental deliberation to somehow explain this feels like it rises not from within the presence but as if from its periphery or circumference,

Good to notice. That's interesting.

. When specifically doing the exercise with the words on this screen, my mind got a little entangled in reading and interpreting the meanings of the words

I understand. Ok. Let us modify the exercises a little bit to make it less likely to result in mental entanglement.

Instead of "the words on this screen are seen" let's change to "a wall nearby is seen".. So find a more or less featureless wall , or if not a wall then the ground. . Now the question remains, "what does seeing"

Notice that I have not asked you to try to find "who" is doing the seeing but to look at "what" does seeing.?

. It is clear that the eyes are only the means that allow the activity of seeing to take place.

This is a common belief, yes. But if you were a baby would you even know that "eyes allow seeing", ? Nevertheless, do you think that seeing would not happen for the baby because the baby doesn't know the label or idea of "eyes"?

Approach this inquiry as if nothing at all can be assumed. We will not take anything from hearsay but will look for ourselves and find out what can actually be known for sure.

Try this modified experiment and tell me how it goes?

All the best

Jon

[indianguy]

Dear Jon,

Instead of "the words on this screen are seen" let's change to "a wall nearby is seen".. So find a more or less featureless wall , or if not a wall then the ground. . Now the question remains, "what does seeing"

I apologise for putting you through the effort of needing to state something trivial, I was just trying to be as articulate as I could be, and am still trying to find the right balance between completely reporting what is important, and leaving out unnecessary bits of information.

I repeated the experiment with the suggested modifications, looking at a wall.

Notice that I have not asked you to try to find "who" is doing the seeing but to look at "what" does seeing.?

From a very relaxed observation, it looks like seeing is just happening.

Some digression:
If some deliberation is put in to somehow pin down the activity on a "what" that is doing the seeing, there are a lot of images that I can only consider to be thoughts. There are mental images of a space that could be called "within me", which seems like a space where I am looking for the one that is doing the activity of seeing, but that seems like a futile exercise. If I ask, "is this just a mental picture of some space in me?", it ends up looking like there's no "inner space" for even searching for what feels like me.

From yet another attempt to notice what is looking:
Seeing feels like it is probably just happening, but I am still not perfectly sure of that. It is when looking for the knowing of the seeing that the neutral me-ness is noticed. If at all there is something that is doing the seeing, it is slightly out of reach.

There is also some frustration at how futile the exercise seems and the fact that I have not been able to get even a simple, genuine insight.

But if you were a baby would you even know that "eyes allow seeing", ? Nevertheless, do you think that seeing would not happen for the baby because the baby doesn't know the label or idea of "eyes"?

No, if I were a baby, I wouldn't know that. Even aspects such as blinking, covering the eyes, etc would not have been correlated with obstruction to the thing that is being seen.

From such a perspective (also deliberately setting aside the seeming image of space wherever I feel "me" - which seems to be behind the face), whatever does the seeing seems to be extremely intimate with the seeing itself. That is all I am able to say about it for now, Jon.

Should I be looking a little differently than I am, currently?

Regards,
Raam

[indianguy]

Dear Jon,

I went through the exercise yet again today freshly, and wanted to recount what is being noticed, even at the cost of repeating myself, hoping to be very authentic and to cover anything I missed out in the previous post.

I find that any attempt to decidedly find what's looking, holds some assumption of there being a looker, that too somewhere within "me" (I'm not using quotes to include the assumption that there isn't a me, but to point to the space of what feels like me. For lack of a proper means to describe it, I'd say it's within the body, but the place where I'm looking is what actually feels like me and not at a physical point in the body space). However, along with the looking is a set of obscure, "dark" images of a space where I'm trying to find me. In this sense, the search for me just feels like a futile mental exercise.

Upon discarding any images no matter how obscure, the me feels like perhaps a point that, if mapped onto the body space, feels like it's in the chest region. But this is the feeling of the self that knows that seeing is taking place. Is this the entity that is doing the seeing?

Seeing feels like something that's just happening, that this entity of "me" knows of.

When I forget about anything related to me and refer only to activity of seeing, everything else - even the attempt to find that which is seeing feels like mental activity, because seeing is just happening. The knowing that seeing is happening is the one thing that seems to be inseparable from seeing, but I'm still unable to answer the question directly, Jon. I am not sure if I'm getting a little confused.

Hope this throws some light on what I observed.

Regards,
Raam

[JonathanR]

Hi Raam

. I'm still unable to answer the question directly, Jon. I am not sure if I'm getting a little confused.

Actually you have answered the question but I understand that in answering there seems to be complication.

. When I forget about anything related to me and refer only to activity of seeing, everything else - even the attempt to find that which is seeing feels like mental activity, because seeing is just happening

There! That's what's experienced here too. And actually I did not ask you to look for or think about 'me'.
This exercise is in fact very simple.

Yes, seeing does seem to just happen.

Please don't worry about where this is going , or if it feels like the "wrong direction" at the moment. Things will become clear, perhaps very soon.

So, seeing is experienced , it just happens.

Would you say that mental activity, which may or may not come too,, makes seeing happen? Or is it something different , something extra, in addition to the seeing?

Try Hearing next. Try a similar sort of exercise. This time , sit somewhere quiet and just notice sounds. These might be quiet, such as breathing, or louder, distant voices or a car passing by. You may like to close your eyes for this.

Is hearing just happening?

Best wishes

Jon