The True Liberation

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shozeb
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The True Liberation

Postby shozeb » Wed Aug 04, 2021 9:42 am

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this?
Since our childhood, we "identify" ourselves with this body, thoughts, feelings and emotions and create a false image of "me", a separate entity, having a free will, to live in this world. Enlightened beings tell us that actually there is no separate self and there is only ONE or The Self and a separate "me" is nothing more than an illusion.

What are you looking for at LU?
Personal guidance or guided meditations to "experience" the truth, real nature of "I", see the illusion of a separate entity "me" and to merge with the ONE or Being. I may have questions and someone can answer those to help me on this "pathless" path.

What do you expect from a guided conversation?
I already read a lot on Quora and other forums but I only have the knowledge of these terms, not the "experience". With guidance we get some awakenings in the process which help us free from our mental bondages that we have created throughout our life and true guidance helps us "focus" on things that matter although I know this is something we cannot "cause" but even then there is a process or meditation/activities that kind of prepare you for the moment.

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry?
I have been actively seeking and reading since last 4 years, doing meditation and attending guided meditation sessions but so far I only have the "knowledge" and not any real "experience" of residing in Being or "experiencing" the energy itself etc.

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self?
10

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warissem
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Re: The True Liberation

Postby warissem » Tue Aug 10, 2021 8:15 am

Hi Shozeb

I am here to help you go through the illusion of a separate self. This forum has some rules to be respected :

Commitment : you check in the forum once a day to read the questions, if any, and answer to them. If you cannot do so, let me know

Honesty : you are honest 100% with yourself when giving answers to my questions. That means that you are certain that what you say have been seen in direct experience (I will explain for you what is direct experience, later).

Let aside all books, audios, videos, thoughts about spirituality, teachers, .... during this dialog

Read the disclaimer text viewtopic.php?f=16&t=221

Learn how to use the quote function viewtopic.php?f=4&t=660

If you agree, we can begin

Thank you

Warissem

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shozeb
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Re: The True Liberation

Postby shozeb » Tue Aug 10, 2021 8:43 am

Hi Warissem

Thank you for your kind reply.

Yes, I commit I will check the forum at least once per day.
I will answer with 100% honesty based only on my direct experience.
I have read the disclaimer text and I agree to that.
I know how to use the quote function while replying to posts.

Best Regards
-Shozeb

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warissem
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Re: The True Liberation

Postby warissem » Tue Aug 10, 2021 9:03 am

Hi Shozeb

In the introduction post you said :
Personal guidance or guided meditations to "experience" the truth, real nature of "I", see the illusion of a separate entity "me" and to merge with the ONE or Being.


The truth is already experienced, there will be no great change. Seeing through the illusion of a separate self does not mean merging with the ONE. You will see that there is no one here to merge or not merge.

After having said that, talk about your expectations :

What are you expecting to happen after seeing through the illusion ?

What do you expect to change in your daily life ?

Thank you

Warissem

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shozeb
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Re: The True Liberation

Postby shozeb » Tue Aug 10, 2021 5:39 pm

Hi Warissem
The truth is already experienced, there will be no great change. Seeing through the illusion of a separate self does not mean merging with the ONE. You will see that there is no one here to merge or not merge.
Yes, I realize my mistake, if there is only ONE then there is no merging.
What are you expecting to happen after seeing through the illusion? What do you expect to change in your daily life?

I have a wife, 3 kids, other family members (mother, sisters, brothers), my own home in a good locality and a car etc. so I am very comfortable in my life and I do not want/expect any worldly/materialistic benefits from this path. I do not want to escape from my daily life, responsibilities or to get any magical powers that can help me in my worldly life/routine. I am all ok with my body life. Also I know it will be the same "chop wood, carry water" after the enlightenment and I am perfectly fine with that.

I born as a Muslim and have been seeking the true relationship/love of God since my childhood, in different phases of my life. I went to different sects/groups of Islam and finally abandoned most of those religious practices/beliefs since last 4 years when I started reading and meeting spiritual gurus. Now after 4 years, my knowledge has helped me a lot to abandon the false beliefs and "see" up to some extent the false nature of "I" that is the center of our lives. I think this journey has made my life more peaceful and easy. I know it can be painful to see the false nature of some of very important beliefs (e.g. our existence) but I am ready to go through and accept it so that I finally experience the TRUTH and adjust myself according to that rather than keep living in false beliefs and ideas without knowing which is true/false and we suffer because of this ignorance.

After only "knowing" the TRUTH and still without "experiencing" it I think I am some-way on the path. After getting all this new knowledge that I was not aware of my whole life, I think it's not possible for me to NOT "move forward" and try to "experience" the truth because it's more difficult for me to live in this half-truth than the ignorance. I feel I am on a path where I am sliding down more naturally and I am not in control to stop this slide, so I don't try to control. I think this journey is a natural flow of the soul, not something special, but just as a natural path of the soul in this worldly game.

So I think most importantly I want to "experience" the truth just because it's TRUTH and I don't want to live in false beliefs. I think TRUTH will clear ALL my false beliefs and there will be no disappointment later on that the beliefs I was cling on, my whole life were actually not true.

Thank you and Best Regards
-Shozeb

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warissem
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Re: The True Liberation

Postby warissem » Wed Aug 11, 2021 3:52 pm

Hi Shozeb

Yes, there is nothing to expect. Chop wood, carry water will continue as before seeing through the illusion of a separate self.

Now, I give you the clue to use during this dialog : it is LOOKING at direct experience. It means : seeing, hearing, smelling, tasting, touching (sensations). Sure there are thoughts about everything but don't go to thoughts, just be with what is here now with the five senses open.

Example : when I ask this question : what is the color of the sky ? There are two ways of answering :

1. Look at the sky and write down what you see : it is direct experience
2. Guess the color of the sky without having given a look at it.

If you are clear with this, give me some examples of direct experience.

Thank you

Warissem

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shozeb
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Re: The True Liberation

Postby shozeb » Fri Aug 13, 2021 5:04 pm

Hi Warissem

Following are few examples of my Direct experience if I understand your question correctly.

- Sometimes I watch my body attentively and I see that my one hand washes the other and vice versa, one foot washes the other and vice versa, my legs carry my body to wherever I go.

- When I focus on breath with eyes open, I can see my chest/belly contracting and expanding and can feel the air going in and out of my nostrils.

- When I sit lonely in my room, I can hear the sounds all around, sound of the fan in the room and voices of kids/family members from outside the room.

These are my observations though nothing profound :) Please check if you asked the same.

Thank you
-Shozeb

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warissem
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Re: The True Liberation

Postby warissem » Fri Aug 13, 2021 9:57 pm

Hi Shozeh

Now, re write your answer without using the word "I".

Example :Sometimes I watch my body attentively and I see that my one hand washes the other

There is seeing of one hand washing the other.

After having done the exercise, how do you feel ?

Warissem

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shozeb
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Re: The True Liberation

Postby shozeb » Sat Aug 14, 2021 7:31 pm

Hi Warissem

So, yes

- Sometimes there is seeing of one hand washing the other, one foot washing the other and that legs carry the body to wherever it goes.

- When there is focus on breath with eyes open, there is seeing of the chest/belly contracting and expanding and there is feeling of the air going in and out of the nostrils.

- When there is focus on hearing, there is hearing of the sounds from all around.

So intellectually there is an "acceptance" that since "I" is not found anywhere in the body (parts), not in the thoughts, feelings (sensations) and emotions so "I" is not involved in all of these processes and these just "happen", NOT to "someone". So this is understood intellectually.

In real life, ego/I still exists that feels bad on hearing bad words about it or gets involved in the daily situations as a "separate me". Not sure how this intellectual understanding can be "experienced" up to the extent that it becomes permanent.

Thank you
-Shozeb

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warissem
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Re: The True Liberation

Postby warissem » Sat Aug 14, 2021 8:40 pm

Hi Shozeb

Fine for the exercise.
So intellectually there is an "acceptance" that since "I" is not found anywhere in the body (parts), not in the thoughts, feelings (sensations) and emotions so "I" is not involved in all of these processes and these just "happen", NOT to "someone". So this is understood intellectually.
"I" is not found anywhere : is it intellectually ? If it is not your experience, where is "i" hidden ?

In real life, ego/I still exists that feels bad on hearing bad words about it or gets involved in the daily situations as a "separate me". Not sure how this intellectual understanding can be "experienced" up to the extent that it becomes permanent.
You say that ego/I exists : do you see it, do you hear it, do you taste it, do you smell it, can you touch it ? Can you describe it for me ?

Thank you

Warissem

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shozeb
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Re: The True Liberation

Postby shozeb » Sun Aug 15, 2021 3:27 pm

Hi Warissem
"I" is not found anywhere : is it intellectually ? If it is not your experience, where is "i" hidden ?
ok, sooo yes, "I" is not found anywhere based on my experience from 5 senses, so not intellectually but based on my experience from 5 senses, think this is more correct :)
You say that ego/I exists : do you see it, do you hear it, do you taste it, do you smell it, can you touch it ? Can you describe it for me ?
yes, here too since I can't experience it based on my 5 senses, so we can say that ego/I "appears" to exist and participate in different situations. Probably this is the stream of thoughts/feelings/emotions that creates this (false) impression of ego/I :)

Thank you
-Shozeb

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warissem
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Re: The True Liberation

Postby warissem » Sun Aug 15, 2021 7:37 pm

Hi Shozeb

There is a need to be clearer about the concepts "I", me, ego ... There is an exercise for you :

it takes about 20 minutes and you will need a pen a paper.

This exercise is broken into 10 minute lots. For each 10 minute period pay attention to any bodily sensation ie is there any tightening, or any relaxing?

For the first ten minutes write down what you are experiencing right now using the word “I”.

For example: I am sitting on a chair, I am hearing a clock ticking, I am looking at a computer screen, I am feeling hungry. Get right to the point, no past or future fantasy, just a plain description of your experience right here and now.

Then for the next ten minutes continue writing down what you are experiencing but this time without using the word “I”. Just describe the experience as it is happening using verbs. For example: sitting on a chair, typing, breathing, blinking, hearing the clock. (Again, watch what is happening in the body.)

At the end of the twenty minutes compare the two ways in which the experience was labelled and answer the following four questions:

1. Is one truer than the other, and If so, which one?
2. What is here without labels?
3. Do labels affect the experience or just describe it?
4. Did you notice any differences in the body?

Warissem

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shozeb
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Re: The True Liberation

Postby shozeb » Wed Aug 18, 2021 7:07 pm

Hi Warissem

Sorry for the delay, now I have done both 10 minute exercises and following are my answers.

1. Probably the one without "I" is truer because in previous dialog we saw we are unable to locate any "I", so probably only the process is happening but NOT to "someone".

2. If I understand the question clearly, probably there is only the action or process happening here, whether we label it or not, it happens, sometimes unconsciously and sometimes more consciously.

3. I think labels only describe the experience and not affect it.

4. Honestly I didn't notice any sensations in the body during both exercises.

Thank you
-Shozeb

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warissem
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Re: The True Liberation

Postby warissem » Wed Aug 18, 2021 9:53 pm

Hi Shozeb

Good observations. There is an exercise for you :

1. Can you find an inherent self anywhere, outside of thought?

2. Can thought experience thought? Can thought experience anything?

3. Does thought make any contact with other kinds of sense experience, such as sounds or sensations – or are they totally separate from each other?

4. For a moment take note of exactly what is being experienced in this moment: 
Notice all sound, all sensation, all smell, all taste, all colour.
Notice how you're making absolutely no effort to be aware of them.
And notice that you're not making them happen.
You're not conducting the orchestra of experience that you're aware of.
And notice that thought is exactly the same as the rest of experience.
You're effortlessly aware of it, but you're not orchestrating it. You're not even orchestrating the thoughts which say that you're able to orchestrate thoughts.

5. The story of "me’ can seem to have continuity. Is it really continuous? Or are there simply isolated thoughts that never can truly touch each other, some of them claiming that there's one continuous story?

6. Observe thought closely. Try to determine what your next thought is going to be before it appears. Can you do this? Isn’t a thought only known as it appears? In that case, can you possibly claim to be in control of the thinking process, the thoughts, choices or impulses that arise, unless you can somehow instigate them beforehand?

7. Sit quietly and pay close attention to your thoughts for 20 minutes. Notice that thoughts seem to pop out of nowhere and have no obvious cause. They are a total surprise and you can find no cause or reason for their appearance. It should be obvious you were not involved in any way in the creation of these thoughts.

8. Do you have unpleasant thoughts? Do you want to have them? If you had any control over thoughts, don’t you think you would choose not to think such thoughts at all? Wouldn’t you be able to choose never to have thoughts that seem to make you unhappy?

9. When we look very closely and precisely we come to see that “me” thoughts only refer to other “me” thoughts, not to an actual abiding “me.” Observe thoughts with precision; can you ever find a ‘me’ within the “me” thoughts and feelings, or just a sense of me?

10. Pay attention to mental activity – to thoughts and images in the mind. Where are they arising? Are they inside something? Are they central to you, or are they peripheral? Do they leave any trace when they have gone?

Take your time and give answers through direct experience.

Warissem

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shozeb
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Re: The True Liberation

Postby shozeb » Sun Aug 22, 2021 5:42 pm

Hi Warissem
1. Can you find an inherent self anywhere, outside of thought?
No, cannot find it anywhere except thought seems to create this impression of a false "I".
2. Can thought experience thought? Can thought experience anything?
No, Thought cannot experience anything, does that imply that "I" does not exist even in thought?
3. Does thought make any contact with other kinds of sense experience, such as sounds or sensations – or are they totally separate from each other?
Sometimes they seem to be in connection e.g. when we hear an old song, we remember past memories/events about that or when we meet an old friend we remember the old days spent with him. When we feel hungry, there is a thought to go find something in kitchen or fridge etc. so they seem to make a connection sometimes.
4. For a moment take note of exactly what is being experienced in this moment: 
Notice all sound, all sensation, all smell, all taste, all colour.
Notice how you're making absolutely no effort to be aware of them.
And notice that you're not making them happen.
You're not conducting the orchestra of experience that you're aware of.
And notice that thought is exactly the same as the rest of experience.
You're effortlessly aware of it, but you're not orchestrating it. You're not even orchestrating the thoughts which say that you're able to orchestrate thoughts.
Yes, All of this seems correct that all sensations are experienced without applying any effort and all thoughts also appear effortlessly, I am not making any conscious effort to make those appear. When we do our office work or some tedious task, there seems to be some "effort" being applied there in order to "think" what should we do next, how to arrange things to complete a task, who depends on what and so on but this is correct that still all those thoughts "arrive" automatically one after the other without being created by "me".
5. The story of "me’ can seem to have continuity. Is it really continuous? Or are there simply isolated thoughts that never can truly touch each other, some of them claiming that there's one continuous story?
So, even if it's not "continuous" in reality, thoughts do a very good job to make it "appear" as continuous :) So if we are hungry, we go to kitchen, look for something, find and eat it. When there is an emergency, we go to phone, dial the right number and call police or doctor. So we "get" the right stream of thoughts continuously to help us in the situation and give the impression that all is part of the same story. So we get the required thoughts, only related to this "me" and never get "someone else's" thoughts.
6. Observe thought closely. Try to determine what your next thought is going to be before it appears. Can you do this? Isn’t a thought only known as it appears? In that case, can you possibly claim to be in control of the thinking process, the thoughts, choices or impulses that arise, unless you can somehow instigate them beforehand?
I tried to "think" of my next thought and I think the one I chose is also "delivered" to me probably like someone "handed over" to me and not that I created that myself. So in that case it is true that we cannot claim to be in control of the thinking activity.
7. Sit quietly and pay close attention to your thoughts for 20 minutes. Notice that thoughts seem to pop out of nowhere and have no obvious cause. They are a total surprise and you can find no cause or reason for their appearance. It should be obvious you were not involved in any way in the creation of these thoughts.
Yes, this is correct, sometimes I automatically start singing a very old song that I last heard 10+ years ago or even before that and there is no easy way that I could recall that song, yet it "appeared" to me without any effort at some random interval of time.
8. Do you have unpleasant thoughts? Do you want to have them? If you had any control over thoughts, don’t you think you would choose not to think such thoughts at all? Wouldn’t you be able to choose never to have thoughts that seem to make you unhappy?
This is correct, few years back I had some mental issues causing unwanted thoughts to appear automatically and I had to make a lot of hard work to make those disappear and have those not appear to me. Those thoughts were completely out of my control and no way created by me.
9. When we look very closely and precisely we come to see that “me” thoughts only refer to other “me” thoughts, not to an actual abiding “me.” Observe thoughts with precision; can you ever find a ‘me’ within the “me” thoughts and feelings, or just a sense of me?
Yes, there is no actual "me" in the thoughts but just a sense of the "me".
10. Pay attention to mental activity – to thoughts and images in the mind. Where are they arising? Are they inside something? Are they central to you, or are they peripheral? Do they leave any trace when they have gone?
From childhood, we "assume" that thoughts and images appear within some "brain" area, not sure how much truth is there in it but I definitely see the images with thoughts, I do not see any container within which they appear, I only see the images. I don't know if they are central or peripheral but in some emergency situations like described above and since all thoughts are very relevant to the situation sometimes so they "appear" to be central to this "me" but not sure if they really are. No, they do not leave any trace when gone, absolutely no trace, I tend to forget them altogether.

Thank you
-Shozeb


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