How to stop searching

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AnastasiaChe
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How to stop searching

Postby AnastasiaChe » Mon Jun 07, 2021 5:07 pm

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this?
Most probably I understand it as awakening from illusion of separation with people and life. Seeing that all of us are one and all conflicts inside and outside of us are just ridiculous. Living in acceptance of everything. But who is accepting, right? =)

What are you looking for at LU?
I want to stop an endless searching of inner harmony, peace and the feeling of completeness. I'm not sure, but maybe I had a state where I saw that there is no I, but I can't hold this state and bring it to my daily life. I would like to live the life from it. I hope that it will help to vanish my endless feeling of something-wrong-with-me or I-need-something-more-to-be-complete. I hope to gain inner peace after seeing the things how they really are.

What do you expect from a guided conversation?
Help to see more clearly (or just to see?) how is it — to live without self. Maybe help with stopping my mind? Also, since you ask for complete honesty here, I think I have fears of how will I live after seeing. I've heard an read a lot that people can feel lost or like babies after awakening. I understand that you cannot help me with my life, still I have a hope that through conversation I will be able to see that there is nothing to be afraid of.

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry?
I haven't been to any retreats or something similar. I've read some esotherical literature for last 5-7 years. My main spiritual practice for last 3 years and 9 months is motherhood. During last year I started to do more or less regular meditations and from this year January I have completed Holographic coaching course, which changed my perception of myself, life and opened a little door into "no-I". Currently I've finished main course and I continue to study there

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self?
9

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JonathanR
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Re: How to stop searching

Postby JonathanR » Sat Jul 03, 2021 4:20 pm

Hello Anastasia

How refreshing to read your statements. Thank you!

Sorry for your long wait. We're very busy here at LU.

My name is Jon. Shall I call you Anastasia?


I'm glad you're here, from what I've read.
. I want to stop an endless searching of inner harmony, peace and the feeling of completeness.
Understood. So, this can happen.

. I had a state where I saw that there is no I, but I can't hold this state and bring it to my daily life
Yes, but like you said who would hold this state? Besides, maybe being "me" "holding" is exactly the dilemma? It sounds kind of tiring, put that way 😊
. I hope that it will help to vanish my endless feeling of something-wrong-with-me or I-need-something-more-to-be-complete. I hope to gain inner peace after seeing the things how they really are.
This is very possible but it could be less about getting rid of thoughts and feelings and much more about turning towards them properly, greeting them and even thanking them for appearing. They do seem to want to show up, don't they?
. I think I have fears of how will I live after seeing. I've heard an read a lot that people can feel lost or like babies after awakening. I understand that you cannot help me with my life, still I have a hope that through conversation I will be able to see that there is nothing to be afraid of.
Yes. Understood. Well, since this is your intention we can chat about this as we go along and not leave it out of your inquiry.

How does that sound?


With love

Jon

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AnastasiaChe
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Re: How to stop searching

Postby AnastasiaChe » Sun Jul 04, 2021 8:54 am

Hello Jon!

I'm glad to have a guide after my waiting. So, it looks like the real time has come. =) Frankly, I was afraid a little of every email I received during this period, every single of them could be the start of this journey. And looks like I have some expectations. 😂
My name is Jon. Shall I call you Anastasia?
Anastasia is my full name, but friends and family call me Nastia (pronounced something like 'na:stia), I prefer to be called by this name in close conversations.
Yes, but like you said who would hold this state?
That's a tricky question =) How does the state keep going? Currently "I" don't have an understanding how does it happen and what does it mean.
Besides, maybe being "me" "holding" is exactly the dilemma? It sounds kind of tiring, put that way 😊
Yeah, and feels tiring as well, that's true. So, if it feels so tiring there should be some lie underneath this belief.
This is very possible but it could be less about getting rid of thoughts and feelings and much more about turning towards them properly, greeting them and even thanking them for appearing. They do seem to want to show up, don't they?
At a first sight my mind agrees. At the same time there is a belief that emotions show us that we have identified ourselves with some part or belief, which is not our true essence. And if "I" always remember that there is no really "I" there is nothing that could provoke emotions.
How does that sound?[/ quote]
Sounds great, Jon. I'm really glad you're here. Frightened a little to be hones, but excited. 😂 (I already foresee the question "who is frightened or excited" or "where do fear and excitement appear". Sorry for mess in my head, thank you for beings here to help with it).

Love, Nastya

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JonathanR
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Re: How to stop searching

Postby JonathanR » Sun Jul 04, 2021 7:37 pm

Hello Nastia
. Frankly, I was afraid a little of every email I received during this period, every single of them could be the start of this journey. And looks like I have some expectations
It's no worry. It's usually true to be honest and these can be recognised quite quickly where there's the will to look and see.
. Anastasia is my full name, but friends and family call me Nastia (pronounced something like 'na:stia), I prefer to be called by this name in close conversations.
Ok thank you. I'll use Nastia as we will be having a friendly sort of conversation.
. Yes, but like you said who would hold this state?
That's a tricky question =) How does the state keep going? Currently "I" don't have an understanding how does it happen and what does it mean
Ok good point. Let's look at this.

Is no self is about a state that keeps going or is this assumed to be what it's about?

Have you noticed how flowers are very very beautiful but they shrivel and die? And more come along and later they die?

Have you noticed how running water is never stays the same for two consecutive seconds?

What about thoughts?. Look now (within, so to speak)

Do you notice that thoughts can be like a stream, or like a flower, appearing, occupying attention for a few moments and then being succeeded by another, possibly quite different thought?

Is it possible to prevent thoughts from appearing? Try that as an experiment. What do you find?

But also, can thoughts be 'created'? From scratch? Are they somehow manufactured in advance and then chosen to actually be thought? Or do they simply appear?
. And if "I" always remember that there is no really "I" there is nothing that could provoke emotions.
That seems true , if there's no "I". But we must go beyond having to always remember to try to maintain a state of hyper-vigilance. The key to your inquiry here will come as it is seen beyond a shadow of doubt that there never was and never will be a separate self.

How does that message fall?


Love


Jon

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AnastasiaChe
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Re: How to stop searching

Postby AnastasiaChe » Mon Jul 05, 2021 11:06 am

Hello Jon once again
Is no self is about a state that keeps going or is this assumed to be what it's about?
Sorry, I didn't get this one, but I will answer to the following questions.
Have you noticed how flowers are very very beautiful but they shrivel and die? And more come along and later they die?

Have you noticed how running water is never stays the same for two consecutive seconds?

What about thoughts?. Look now (within, so to speak)

Do you notice that thoughts can be like a stream, or like a flower, appearing, occupying attention for a few moments and then being succeeded by another, possibly quite different thought?

Is it possible to prevent thoughts from appearing? Try that as an experiment. What do you find?
Sometimes I feel like I'm stuck with one thought or one sequences of several thoughts. But when I look at them, they don't really seem the same. Like you told – like river. I'm writing this seating near the river and I find it very similar. When I look to a river from a distance, so-to-say "in general" I seems like it is all the time the same river, but when I come closer, I see that in every point the water never stays the same for two consecutive moments. The same is with thoughts. It feels like I'm stuck in a bog if I don't look at them closely. But when I do, I see them sligjtly changing all the time.

I've tried to prevent them fron appearing by switching all my attention to body sensations. But somehow they seem to appear anyway, somewhere "behind". "This is the wind on my cheek and ear", "this is the sound of river flow". If someone can prevent them fron appearing, looks like that's not me. 😅
But also, can thoughts be 'created'? From scratch? Are they somehow manufactured in advance and then chosen to actually be thought? Or do they simply appear?
They are definitely not created or manufactured and simply appear as a whole. The "whole" doesn't mean that every single of them is as a finished sentence, seems like even not every single of them contains words, but by "as a whole" I mean that a thought just appears as it is without some kind of further development. Further development is another thought or maybe just next moment in the flow.

Still, I have a feeling like I can "ask to arrive" some thought. For instance, you ask me to look how do they appear. It creates some intention inside me, an intention to look. I look inside and I need some thoughts to look to. The thought "Let's see how does it happen" appears. Seems like "I" or "intention" or something else invited this thought and following.
But we must go beyond having to always remember to try to maintain a state of hyper-vigilance. The key to your inquiry here will come as it is seen beyond a shadow of doubt that there never was and never will be a separate self.

How does that message fall?
To go beyond having to always remember feels very... don't know which English word to use... Liberating? I think so.

It feels exciting.

Sincerely, Nastia

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JonathanR
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Re: How to stop searching

Postby JonathanR » Tue Jul 06, 2021 10:30 am

Morning Nastia

I'm sorry for my slowness replying. I had trouble accessing the forum.
. Is no self is about a state that keeps going or is this assumed to be what it's about?
Sorry, I didn't get this one,
Let me rephrase.

You spoke about a "state" , as if no self were expected to be a state of mind or something like that, I'm questioning whether that is an assumption on your part?. Could it be that it is more mysterious than this? not limited at all by psychological or other states of mind?
. The same is with thoughts. It feels like I'm stuck in a bog if I don't look at them closely. But when I do, I see them sligjtly changing all the time
It's very helpful that you're willing to examine and look at your actual experience and to notice how thoughts tend to behave. Well done.
. I've tried to prevent them fron appearing by switching all my attention to body sensations. But somehow they seem to appear anyway, somewhere "behind". "This is the wind on my cheek and ear", "this is the sound of river flow". If someone can prevent them fron appearing, looks like that's not me. 😅
That does seem to be the case. Ok, here's an interesting question. Since it doesn't seem possible to prevent thoughts from appearing, how about the thought "I" ?
. I mean that a thought just appears as it is without some kind of further development. Further development is another thought or maybe just next moment in the flow.
Interesting observation. That does seem true too.

So do you think thoughts or do thoughts think "you"?

With love

Jon

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AnastasiaChe
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Re: How to stop searching

Postby AnastasiaChe » Tue Jul 06, 2021 11:00 pm

Hi Jon
You spoke about a "state" , as if no self were expected to be a state of mind or something like that, I'm questioning whether that is an assumption on your part?. Could it be that it is more mysterious than this? not limited at all by psychological or other states of mind?
Now when I look at it, it’s definitely not a state of mind. It even sounds ridiculous. The mind has nothing to do with “no-self”. If there are some states then they could be somewhere “inside” no-self, but no-self shouldn't have limits of a state. It doesn't
Since it doesn't seem possible to prevent thoughts from appearing, how about the thought "I" ?
It took a lot of effort to see the answer to this. And still, it feels like I don't have an answer. Nevertheless your last question helps a little to answer this one.

It feels like it isn't possible to prevent “I” from appearing, but also it feels like it is possible for “I-thought” not to appear. Yet there is no preventing.

Here is an interesting point, seems like “I-thought” can appear even when there is an understanding of no existence of a separate self. But in that case there is nothing to stick to this thought. I can't see it more clearly at this time.
So do you think thoughts or do thoughts think "you"?
It is more like thoughts are thinking “me”. More to say – seems like they are creating this “me”, “I”. The only “I” there exists is “I-thought”.

It feels very complex to digest for the mind. I don't see or feel it very clearly also. And when I try to, anxiety arises.

Love
Nastia

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JonathanR
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Re: How to stop searching

Postby JonathanR » Wed Jul 07, 2021 7:04 am

Hello Nastia
. It feels very complex to digest for the mind. I don't see or feel it very clearly also. And when I try to, anxiety arises.

You're doing good work already simply by your willingness to look at experience directly, without holding on to assumptions or preconceptions.

Anxiety appears, wanting to protect something. There's a perception that someone might be in some sort of danger, or come to harm. It's an ancient , loyal instinct that is based in love but there's a confusion about who might be 'harmed' and how.

When anxiety appears, thank it. Tell it how much you love and appreciate it and let it know that no-one can be harmed by this inquiry. It's possible to really relax as it's only an idea of danger. Simply relax.
. It is more like thoughts are thinking “me”. More to say – seems like they are creating this “me”, “I”. The only “I” there exists is “I-thought”.
Since (or so it seems anyway) thoughts cannot be prevented from appearing , including the thought "I" are these actually "your" thoughts?

What is that about?

When you feel ready, take a look

Is there a "self" that can prevent thoughts?

We speak about "mind", but "mind" (like so many words) is a label . If we drop using the label for a moment... What mind?, Where?

With love

Jon

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AnastasiaChe
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Re: How to stop searching

Postby AnastasiaChe » Wed Jul 07, 2021 10:25 pm

Morning Jon. At least I assume you will read it in the morning
Since (or so it seems anyway) thoughts cannot be prevented from appearing , including the thought "I" are these actually "your" thoughts?

What is that about?

When you feel ready, take a look

Is there a "self" that can prevent thoughts?
I was trying to find someone behind thoughts during the day and more properly in the evening. I don't see anyone. While I was looking, several thoughts in a form of a dialogue appeared

– Is there someone who owns the thoughts?
– There is a concept of a Higher Self
– Is it the Higher self who sends the thoughts to the Lower self?
I don't see any “self”.

So, as I have written already, it looks like thoughts cannot be prevented from appearing. They just appear or don't. Even if there would be a “self”, it wouldn't be capable of preventing thoughts from appearing. I don't see any “self". At the same time a new thought appears "if I don't see something, it doesn't mean that it doesn't exist". Religion teaches us. =) Apart from religion, there are places like Colosseum in Rome or White house in USA. I haven't seen them, but most probably they exist.

In the case with “self” – I don't see it, but there are doubts – I don't see because there is nothing to see or because I just don't see.

What does then mean to be connected to “Higher self” and receive a guidance for instance? Is there such a thing as guidance? Not like you guide me, but like from some “higher” levels.
We speak about "mind", but "mind" (like so many words) is a label . If we drop using the label for a moment... What mind?, Where?
There is definitely no such a place as mind. Yesterday already when I was writing about it, there was a feeling about its absence. And there was a little inner conflict about using the word “mind”. Inner conflict maybe is not the best word. It more felt like there is some lie in using this word.

I like Ilona's metaphor for "I" when she compares “I” with University in the “Gateless Gatecrashers”. The same feels about the label “mind”. There are thoughts, sometimes chaotic, sometimes there seems to be some system on how they flow, but the mind is just a label. I don't see if there would be such a thing or a place.

I tried to look where really do thoughts appear. There are concepts of emotional body, mental body and so on. If there would be a mental body it could be called “the mind”, but I don't see it. I see the physical body, I see thoughts, I see emotions. Thoughts and emotions seem to be somehow interconnected and they seem to be somewhere in one space or I don't know how else to call it. But I don't see such a place as mind or mental body.

With love,
Nastia

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JonathanR
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Re: How to stop searching

Postby JonathanR » Thu Jul 08, 2021 9:06 am

Morning Nastia

. I was trying to find someone behind thoughts during the day and more properly in the evening. I don't see anyone
Well done. How does feel (if it does)?

Is there any nervousness or anxiety? You didn't mention this in your reply, so I'm asking,
.
– Is there someone who owns the thoughts?
Again, it's worth asking and looking.
. – There is a concept of a Higher Self
How is higher self seen in relation to this inquiry into no self?
. Is it the Higher self who sends the thoughts to the Lower self?
How could this be known? The question conjures up two entities, as if both "exist". Can they be found?

(But I'm not making a nihilistic statement either, by the way).

In your inquiry here it's essential to go by only that which can be verified as actually happening , based in immediate experience. Clearly thoughts happen. So far it's not clear what creates these thoughts (or anything else, for that matter).

Can it be known "who" creates thoughts and "who" experiences them?
. Religion teaches us. =) Apart from religion, there are places like Colosseum in Rome or White house in USA. I haven't seen them, but most probably they exist
Your inquiry here is unique in one way. That's to say ,we must not accept any teaching, idea or assumption about anything that cannot be checked out and verified as happening right here and now.

This is not to say that intellectual and memorised ideas do not play a part in everyday life but if we are being strict, which we must be, there is no direct experience here and now of ,"Coliseum".

The fact that there may have been some direct experience of visiting there isn't good enough because we are only accepting what can be found to be going on right here and now, directly experienced as sight, sound, taste, touch, smell or appearing as idea.

Does that make sense?


With love

Jon

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AnastasiaChe
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Re: How to stop searching

Postby AnastasiaChe » Thu Jul 08, 2021 10:33 pm

Morning Jon
I don't see anyone
Well done. How does feel (if it does)?
It feels like freedom and joy. At the same time it feels like it's nothing new. Nothing has changed.
Is there any nervousness or anxiety? You didn't mention this in your reply, so I'm asking,
There wasn’t while trying to see “someone”, but there was confusion while trying to understand what do they call by Higher self. And why there is a need to know and reason it somehow.
.
– Is there someone who owns the thoughts?
Again, it's worth asking and looking.
Again, I don't see anyone.
. – There is a concept of a Higher Self
How is higher self seen in relation to this inquiry into no self?
It appeared just like another thought, which can not be prevented from appearing. =) Some concept which should be questioned during this inquiry.
. Is it the Higher self who sends the thoughts to the Lower self?
How could this be known? The question conjures up two entities, as if both "exist". Can they be found?
No, none of them. And the answer is just the same as to previous question. There seems to be some need to pay attention to this.
In your inquiry here it's essential to go by only that which can be verified as actually happening , based in immediate experience. Clearly thoughts happen. So far it's not clear what creates these thoughts (or anything else, for that matter).
but if we are being strict, which we must be, there is no direct experience here and now of ,"Coliseum".
Now, with the words “direct experience” it gets much more obvious, easier to understand and relieving.
Can it be known "who" creates thoughts and "who" experiences them?
Here and now, in this moment of direct experience it isn't possible.
The fact that there may have been some direct experience of visiting there isn't good enough because we are only accepting what can be found to be going on right here and now, directly experienced as sight, sound, taste, touch, smell or appearing as idea.

Does that make sense?
Yes, now it's much easier to look, thank you Jon.

Love, Nastia

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JonathanR
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Re: How to stop searching

Postby JonathanR » Fri Jul 09, 2021 11:38 pm

Hi Nastia
. It feels like freedom and joy.
Sounding good !
. there was confusion while trying to understand what do they call by Higher self. And why there is a need to know and reason it somehow.
Yup. We probably need to look into this.
. How is higher self seen in relation to this inquiry into no self?
It appeared just like another thought, which can not be prevented from appearing. =) Some concept which should be questioned during this inquiry
Ok. Yes. I agree. I'm not unfamiliar with this concept of higher self. Where do you feel you encountered it so that it took hold as an idea that is believed?

What makes you believe In higher self?

(Dont worry, I'm not arguing "against" or "for" the idea of a higher self. I'm just asking what you understand by the phrase ?)


Love

Jon

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AnastasiaChe
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Re: How to stop searching

Postby AnastasiaChe » Sat Jul 10, 2021 10:36 pm

Hi, Jon

Let's investigate this label deeper

[quite]I'm not unfamiliar with this concept of higher self. Where do you feel you encountered it so that it took hold as an idea that is believed?[/quote]

I don't even remember where did I encounter it. It was several different teachings and people who used this concept on my “searching” path. It was used so much times that the new belief has formed of it's existence in some form and more important that “I” should be able to keep in touch with it to live my best life. =) To make choices in accordance with my authentic essence.
What makes you believe In higher self?
I don't really feel like I’m holding to this concept, at least to the “self”. Maybe I cling more to something “higher” and to the “lower self” aka ego aka personality.

Speaking of higher self there is no concept of self as such, but more like common space or energy field that is common for everybody, but at the same time each physical body probably should be “attached” to some little part of that limitless space.

Everything I’ve written above is not seen. I described it as a concept, a belief. The self cannot be seen, neither higher, nor lower. But there is a feeling of presence of some kind of energy everywhere, maybe this energy represents what they call by Higher self.

Love,
Nastia

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JonathanR
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Re: How to stop searching

Postby JonathanR » Sun Jul 11, 2021 9:09 am

Hello Nastia
. I don't even remember where did I encounter it. It was several different teachings and people who used this concept on my “searching” path. It was used so much times that the new belief has formed of it's existence in some form and more important that “I” should be able to keep in touch with it to live my best life. =) To make choices in accordance with my authentic essence.
Good to notice that there is this way of thinking and talking and that it is a belief, a model of how things are (supposed to be / work / look).

The intention behind this thinking may well be good but it does kind of assume as its starting point that there is a separation between two kinds of entities and at least one of them is supposed to be a "me".
. Speaking of higher self there is no concept of self as such, but more like common space or energy field that is common for everybody, but at the same time each physical body probably should be “attached” to some little part of that limitless space.

Everything I’ve written above is not seen. I described it as a concept, a belief. The self cannot be seen, neither higher, nor lower. But there is a feeling of presence of some kind of energy everywhere, maybe this energy represents what they call by Higher self.
Wonderful. That's indeed beautiful.

Hey, what if we simply drop the labeling of Higher and lower self for now? Would that be ok? That won't get rid of real presence / energy everywhere.


With love

Jon

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AnastasiaChe
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Re: How to stop searching

Postby AnastasiaChe » Sun Jul 11, 2021 1:26 pm

Hi Jon
Hey, what if we simply drop the labeling of Higher and lower self for now? Would that be ok? That won't get rid of real presence / energy everywhere.
Tottaly ok. There's no real strong feeling that this topic/concept somehow stands on a way to no-self, if we can call it a "way".

Love Nastia


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