It seems close but yet so far

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CuriousBeing
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Re: It seems close but yet so far

Postby CuriousBeing » Wed Aug 18, 2021 7:02 am

Is there something separate from wtat's happening? (from experience of whatever is happening)
Is there an experiencER?
By who or what is all this experienced?
Nothing can be found except experience itself. There is a feeling that attention is behind the eyes and there is a seer but looking at it it is seen as just sensation and thought. Another experience.
What makes a body yours?
If you ignore all thoughts what is it that is experiencing the sensations?
Does a body experiencing?
Or the body is also experienced?
Sensations are experienced. Thoughts make the body mine. Mine being the experiencer - which upon looking is shown to be another experience. Content within the space.

On my morning walk thoughts came up around 'Simon' and how he's being affected. They were seen and caught. Thinking "why do I do all the work?" my inner dialogue at first related then caught it and let it pass. Just another thought coming into the space and moving away. I await the story to fall away but so far the belief remains.

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Luchana
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Re: It seems close but yet so far

Postby Luchana » Wed Aug 18, 2021 3:47 pm

Hi Simon.
Nothing can be found except experience itself. There is a feeling that attention is behind the eyes and there is a seer but looking at it it is seen as just sensation and thought. Another experience.
Good observation.
Notice also:

Does the feeling/sensation suggest in any way that this is something or someone seeing?
What is it that is sugesting this?
Does the sensation says - "Hey I am seeing" ?
Or it is just a sensation?

Sensations are experienced. Thoughts make the body mine.
All right
The thoughts are saying that the body is yours, but is this so in reality?
Is there an owner of the body? Where?

which upon looking is shown to be another experience.
Is this an experience of a me, I, the experiencer?
Or it is an experience of a thought?


On my morning walk thoughts came up around 'Simon' and how he's being affected. They were seen and caught. Thinking "why do I do all the work?" my inner dialogue at first related then caught it and let it pass. Just another thought coming into the space and moving away. I await the story to fall away but so far the belief remains.

Can a real me to whom thoughts and coming be found?
Does this inner dialogue know to whom it is speaking to?
Is there someone or something which knows what words will appear next?


Take your time and please reply each question individually.

Much love,
Luchana
Look. There is no you dreaming.

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Luchana
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Re: It seems close but yet so far

Postby Luchana » Mon Aug 30, 2021 1:50 pm

HI Simon.

How is the looking going on?
Are you still with me?

Much love,
Luchana
Look. There is no you dreaming.

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CuriousBeing
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Re: It seems close but yet so far

Postby CuriousBeing » Sat Sep 11, 2021 6:40 am

Hey Luchana,

Yes I am still here and trying to wrap my head around all of it. I look and see experience as is. The questions you pose.
Does the feeling/sensation suggest in any way that this is something or someone seeing?
What is it that is sugesting this?
Does the sensation says - "Hey I am seeing" ?
Or it is just a sensation?
Conceptually I know it's just thought and sensation and upon looking nothing else is found but I still get stuck in that. No realisation takes place. I see words appearing on a screen but it doesn't do anything. I don't feel a shift.

Sorry for my very late response. I've been trying other teachings along with this to try see if another clicks. Teachings of Eckhart and Sam Harris mostly. Looking for the looker and watching sensations as they arise.

I really desire to wake up but I can't help but feel that maybe I'm trying too hard? I will go through your questions again and look but as is I'm already looking at least two hours a day so it's confusing to me. Do I need to be putting this much effort or should it be a simple look and report?

Thanks for your time and patience with me.

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Luchana
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Re: It seems close but yet so far

Postby Luchana » Mon Sep 13, 2021 9:02 am

Hi Simon,
Conceptually I know it's just thought and sensation and upon looking nothing else is found but I still get stuck in that. No realisation takes place. I see words appearing on a screen but it doesn't do anything. I don't feel a shift.
Ok, there is a difference between intellectual understanding and experiencial seeing, but the shiftt that we are talking about could be so subtle, that even hardly noticable and if you are waiting for something extraordinary it can be very easely dismissed.

The shift may happens when the obvious is questioned. Again and again, looking and looking and more looking is needed.
Hundreds of times

Since knowing how things are intellectually is not enough. It must be experiential, then the knowing becomes factual.
Sorry for my very late response. I've been trying other teachings along with this to try see if another clicks. Teachings of Eckhart and Sam Harris mostly. Looking for the looker and watching sensations as they arise.
It's ok, but teaching can only happen on the intellectual level. There is nothing wrong with Eckhart Tole or anyone else, it's just the LOOKING that can bring the realisation. Because with looking you are investigating your OWN experience.
I really desire to wake up but I can't help but feel that maybe I'm trying too hard? I will go through your questions again and look but as is I'm already looking at least two hours a day so it's confusing to me. Do I need to be putting this much effort or should it be a simple look and report?
Ok. Are you waiting for a thought to "bring" the answer?

You can spent some time investigating these questions:

Can a thought think?
What is it that is thinking really?
Can something REAL be found which is doing the thinking?



Much love,
Luchana
Look. There is no you dreaming.

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CuriousBeing
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Re: It seems close but yet so far

Postby CuriousBeing » Mon Sep 27, 2021 8:23 pm

Hey Luchana.

I am still here and I am still searching. I have finally accepted and understand what you meant by all that learning being intellectual. Looking seems to be the answer here as everything else just adds more layers.

Sorry it took me a while but you've got my full attention and I will be following your pointings now. There's a lot of resistance to doing this practice so I'll take that as a sign it's the thing I should be doing.

I feel the shift when I follow your pointings. Similar to when I ask who's thinking or who am I? It's a subtle shift and everything feels less personal.

To answer your pointings.
Can a thought think?
No it can't. One thought comes and another follows.
What is it that is thinking really?
Nothing. Thought is experienced then it goes away.
Can something REAL be found which is doing the thinking?
Nothing can be found. Just experience.

That you for these pointings and I'm looking forward to hearing from you.

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Luchana
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Re: It seems close but yet so far

Postby Luchana » Wed Sep 29, 2021 1:05 pm

Hi Simon,
I am still here and I am still searching. I have finally accepted and understand what you meant by all that learning being intellectual. Looking seems to be the answer here as everything else just adds more layers.
Oh, great. Just don't take any of my words for granted. Do not accept them and do not try to understand. You have to literally
LOOK for yourself in your own experience.
Sorry it took me a while but you've got my full attention and I will be following your pointings now. There's a lot of resistance to doing this practice so I'll take that as a sign it's the thing I should be doing.
It's very good that you can see this resistance. Yea, anything can arise - resistance, fear. boredom,something more important to do right now.
I feel the shift when I follow your pointings. Similar to when I ask who's thinking or who am I? It's a subtle shift and everything feels less personal.
Good :-)

What is this that can feel less or more personal?

Is there something or someone real?

If yes - where exactly is its place?

Can a thought think?
No it can't. One thought comes and another follows.
What is it that is thinking really?
Nothing. Thought is experienced then it goes away.
Can something REAL be found which is doing the thinking?
Nothing can be found. Just experience.
you did a good looking.


How does it happen than? How it works?
What makes the thinking?

Is there an experiencER of the experience/whatever is happening?
Is there an experiencer + the experienced?


Much love,
Luchana
Look. There is no you dreaming.

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CuriousBeing
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Re: It seems close but yet so far

Postby CuriousBeing » Thu Sep 30, 2021 10:10 am

What is this that can feel less or more personal?
Is there something or someone real?
If yes - where exactly is its place?
It's another though. Feelings arise and a thought comes up. Hey, 'I feel less personal'.
How does it happen than? How it works?
What makes the thinking?

Is there an experiencER of the experience/whatever is happening?
Is there an experiencer + the experienced?
Thinking just happens. There is no experienc-er. Just experience playing out and it being observed.

An interesting thing. I can enter the 'state' much easier now. I don't know if it's just the mind playing more tricks but I seems I can pull back an observe. An example being I heard something that usually makes me annoyed. Today, I anticipated it and watched it. It arose as expected and the mind took off "this is because of that" and "this shouldn't happen". It's all funny when you look at it this way. So delusional expecting it to be any different. It's all happening and it should be welcomed and experienced.

That being said it doesn't feel like a big shift or that I have seen something which cannot be unseen. I feel this can be forgotten and I am back to being trapped in the mind. Maybe you can share some light on this? I recall reading that once you've seen it, you will know. But I don't know. I just watch and observe it all happening. I can easily get sucked back in but once I remember I can pull back out and observe. So basically I need to practice this otherwise it'll weaken and I fall back into thinking!

Thanks for your time once again Luchana :)!

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CuriousBeing
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Re: It seems close but yet so far

Postby CuriousBeing » Thu Sep 30, 2021 8:07 pm

Another thing I notice and question is the voice. I can hear a voice in my head speak. Is that the true me or just the mind with more thought? I am aware that I am aware. But who is narrating that awareness? Is it the true self or the mind and its tricks?

Thanks for your insight!

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Luchana
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Re: It seems close but yet so far

Postby Luchana » Fri Oct 01, 2021 8:27 pm

Hi Simon,

thank you for your replies.
You did a good looking, but please when you write the answer - do not bulk questions. There is a reason I gave the questions like this. Reply each question individually.
Thinking just happens. There is no experienc-er. Just experience playing out and it being observed.
Exactly, thinking just happens.
Who or what is observing the experience of whatever is happening?
Are there two things - what's happening/experience and observing it?
Where is the exact physical location where the observation is happening?

An interesting thing. I can enter the 'state' much easier now. I don't know if it's just the mind playing more tricks but I seems I can pull back an observe. An example being I heard something that usually makes me annoyed. Today, I anticipated it and watched it. It arose as expected and the mind took off "this is because of that" and "this shouldn't happen". It's all funny when you look at it this way. So delusional expecting it to be any different. It's all happening and it should be welcomed and experienced.
Is there a belief that seeing through the self means, not to be INSIDE the story, but be OUTSIDE of the story as an observer?
To be a separate observer, untouched by everything?

This is a very common belief among non-dual and advaita seackers. But this is just an uninvestigated and unquestioned belief. There is nothing that can observe anything. And that’s the beauty.

The observer you are trying to become IS the self itself.
Observer = self
So it's not about becoming or staying as a background observer. That would be the SAME self just in a disguise.

So look again.

Is the observer separated from what is being observed?

I feel this can be forgotten and I am back to being trapped in the mind.
What is mind
And who or what can be trapped in the mind?

Another thing I notice and question is the voice. I can hear a voice in my head speak. Is that the true me or just the mind with more thought? I am aware that I am aware. But who is narrating that awareness? Is it the true self or the mind and its tricks?
How many selves are here?
One true and one fasle? Really?

Does the voice know to whom it is speaking too?

How awareness is experienced exactly?
As an image? As a sound?
Can it be seen, touched, smelled, heared?
What is awareness when you don't think about awareness?
/


Much love,
Luchana
Look. There is no you dreaming.

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CuriousBeing
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Re: It seems close but yet so far

Postby CuriousBeing » Mon Oct 04, 2021 8:17 am

Who or what is observing the experience of whatever is happening?
Nothing. Looking doesn't reveal anyone.

Are there two things - what's happening/experience and observing it?
I believe that the feeling of there being someone is a feeling or thought. Yet, I look and see a plant. I am here and the plant is there. We are not in the same point physically so how am I not observing the plant? Same thing with sounds. I am here and the sounds come into awareness then go away. I am not the sound, just what is hearing it.

Where is the exact physical location where the observation is happening?
It feels as though it's behind the eyes, inside the head. Closing the eyes the feeling remains.

Is the observer separated from what is being observed?
How can it not be? I am looking at something. It is not me, it is being experienced by me.

What is mind?
Looking - mind is just another thought. It leads to thoughts explaining that mind is where thought comes from and must be ignored to "awaken". So mind is just a concept.

And who or what can be trapped in the mind?
I can? Thoughts arise and unless I'm conscious I get caught up into more thoughts and I'm no longer present. That's what it seems like. It goes against there not being anyone here however, so I'm not sure how to proceed with this.

How many selves are here?
I don't see how I can just "look" at this. There is no self when I look. Only a thought of self.

One true and one fasle? Really?
I cannot find any selves.

Does the voice know to whom it is speaking too?
It is just another thought being experienced. I'm identifying with the thought which makes me believe there's a me talking.

How awareness is experienced exactly?
It just is. Nothing is doing anything to experience. It just happens.

As an image? As a sound?
I'm not sure. Awareness is the container of content. I don't think it can be experienced. It just is.

Can it be seen, touched, smelled, heared?
I'm not sure how I can look at this. Awareness is everything.

What is awareness when you don't think about awareness?
Everything that is experienced.


I'm not sure about a lot of this. I feel a lot of conflicting beliefs here and I don't know how to get passed them.

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Luchana
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Re: It seems close but yet so far

Postby Luchana » Tue Oct 05, 2021 12:21 pm

Hi Simon,


again sorry, but there is a problem with the forum.

Hope everything will be ok soon.
I believe that the feeling of there being someone is a feeling or thought. Yet, I look and see a plant. I am here and the plant is there. We are not in the same point physically so how am I not observing the plant? Same thing with sounds. I am here and the sounds come into awareness then go away. I am not the sound, just what is hearing it.
All right.
Lets' focus here on seeing and hearing.

Look at whatever is in front of you.
It is seen from the perspective of two windows (eyes) or is it like a windscreen view?

Now zoom back in and try to find the thing that’s seeing.

Is there seeing separate from what’s seen, or is there just what’s seen?
Is there any awareness separate from experience or is there just experience?
Are there two things?


After you finish with the above - look at this one.

Find somewhere quiet to sit. Rest for a moment and listen to the sounds in the room where you are, or sounds from outside. Whatever it is, I'll just refer to it as 'what can be heard'. Now look very carefull. Watch like a hawk.

In 'hearing' can anything be found other than 'what can be heard'?
Can what is doing the hearing be found? Or is there only 'what can be heard'?
An 'I'? a 'body'? a 'person'? A brain? a pair of ears?
Can these be found doing the hearing? Or is there just 'what can be heard'?
What do you find?
Can an INHERENT HEARER be found?
Would anything that is suggested as the hearer, be anything other than a concept/idea/thought?

Looking - mind is just another thought. It leads to thoughts explaining that mind is where thought comes from and must be ignored to "awaken". So mind is just a concept.
Exactly! A concept, a word. Nothing more. An emprty word, which do not exist in reality.
What is awareness when you don't think about awareness?
Everything that is experienced.
Who or what is putting this label - "Everything that is experienced."
What is awareness when is looked at here now,
Is there such a thing as awareness at all?
Is there a difference between mind and awareness?
Mind is a concept and awareness is what?

I'm not sure about a lot of this. I feel a lot of conflicting beliefs here and I don't know how to get passed them.
Beautiful :-) Аctualy confusion is a good sign. Confusion is here because some (if not all) from your beliefs are questioned.
Keep looking.

Much love,
luchana
Look. There is no you dreaming.

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CuriousBeing
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Re: It seems close but yet so far

Postby CuriousBeing » Tue Oct 05, 2021 4:02 pm

Now zoom back in and try to find the thing that’s seeing.
This raises questions like how can I possibly look at the point I'm looking from? What is being seen is all that can be seen. There is seeing then the narrative "I am seeing the apple" rather than the "apple is seen". Not sure if this is what was meant to happen but frustration arose from trying to look inward because it seemed impossible.
Is there seeing separate from what’s seen, or is there just what’s seen?
Only what is seen. The seer comes after through thought.
Is there any awareness separate from experience or is there just experience?
Only experience. Thoughts appear totake ownership for experience and attach it to 'I'.
Are there two things?
There is only experience. However this raises a question. I've heard that once seen you realise you are the world. So essentially you become that which you see. You see yourself in a flower. I don't quite experience this. I just see that which is seen and then the thoughts "I am seeing the 'lamp'" when it reality it is just shape and colour.
In 'hearing' can anything be found other than 'what can be heard'?
Only that which is heard.
Can what is doing the hearing be found? Or is there only 'what can be heard'?
I cannot find anything beyond what is heard.
An 'I'? a 'body'? a 'person'? A brain? a pair of ears?
These cannot be found in experience without looking at thought.
Can these be found doing the hearing? Or is there just 'what can be heard'?
Only what is heard, anything else is a thought about the sound.
What do you find?
Only sound. Thoughts describing and claiming the sound.
Can an INHERENT HEARER be found?
No just emptiness and sound filling it.
Would anything that is suggested as the hearer, be anything other than a concept/idea/thought?
Does not seem to be the possible. Experience is all that can be looked at, simple experience. Thoughts label and claim it all and convince me that there is more to it.

Who or what is putting this label - "Everything that is experienced."
Thought trying to explain the word awareness after having read about it or being told about it from spiritual teachers.

What is awareness when is looked at here now?
Awareness is a thought about this. By being here awareness is just a word trying to make sense of it.
Is there such a thing as awareness at all?
It appears that it is another concept/idea/thought.
Is there a difference between mind and awareness?
No. Mind is a concept/idea/thought, awareness is a concept/idea/thought.
Mind is a concept and awareness is what?
A concept as well.

It feels stronger after looking. More clear and I realised that being this way does not mean emotions/sensations will go away or the mind will suddenly get quiet and be zen when shit goes wrong but rather it is seen as what the mind does. It is less personal. I don't think no-self was seen but it seems easier to just watch experience now.

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CuriousBeing
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Re: It seems close but yet so far

Postby CuriousBeing » Thu Oct 07, 2021 9:01 am

Hi Luchana,

Just wanted to write an update. I have been looking throughout the day - although I've been a bit more busy than usual. I look to try to find someone hearing or seeing but nothing is there. Yet I don't realise anything. The room is seen but remains as the room. There is no realisation or change. I recall being told not to expect anything or desire a different outcome, as it is so simple you may miss it, but how can you seek without desire? There is a desire to see the truth but I cannot not expect seeing this truth. Confusion has become stronger the last few days as I try to work through this.

There is less attachment to thought and that eases some worries since thought leads to more suffering but I yearn to see the truth!

Thank you for your guidance so far and I hope that I am not frustrating you by not doing this right.

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Luchana
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Re: It seems close but yet so far

Postby Luchana » Thu Oct 07, 2021 10:49 am

Hi Simon.

sorry again for the delay, but there is a problem with the forum.
Hope everything will be ok soon.

I've read bouth answers.
You are looking very well.
...but how can you seek without desire? There is a desire to see the truth but I cannot not expect seeing this truth. Confusion has become stronger the last few days as I try to work through this.
I am going to ask you only one question.

OK. Who are you without this desire?


Look for a whole day, again and again.

Much love
Luchana
Look. There is no you dreaming.


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