Painful repetitive thought patterns

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Connolly
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Re: Painful repetitive thought patterns

Postby Connolly » Mon Aug 23, 2021 11:54 am

Hi Vince
Yes reframing guilt and shame is a new way. I also saw yesterday that it looks to be all bound up in another..me,me,me thing.
How bad am I? I am a bigger sinner than you. I am carrying sooooo much. Etc. More self judgement and self pity (perhaps even different = special) which have been a huge part of what I consider as me.
If you were a native living in the jungle 500 years ago, would it still be considered wrong?
some events definitely not… others hmmmm perhaps not. Some events and acts are even now being normalised due to the Internet.
Before we even get to what 'self' committed these shameful deeds, ask Helen "is in the past?" "Is it possible to change what happened?"
obviously not. But I must have felt there was a need to be contrite. But to be contrite I must have to carry around with me rather than feeling I have paid my dues from carrying the burdens for so long.
Then ask her "What is the benefit of still feeling shame and guilt about it now?" (what is the first thing that comes to mind?)
The first thing is that I must remember to feel sorry I hurt/wronged/deceived/shocked people. But now I have just remembered about altruism. Hmmmmm. I also know it must be a self punishment thing. But as I type I am seeing that it’s only me that’s hurting. Feeling contrite is surely a humbling affair but it now feels quite the opposite. Like a twisted glory? Who would I be without this story… as So many masters say.
O my.

All my love helen.

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vinceschubert
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Re: Painful repetitive thought patterns

Postby vinceschubert » Mon Aug 23, 2021 10:05 pm

Good morning Helen,
Yes reframing guilt and shame is a new way. I also saw yesterday that it looks to be all bound up in another..
i imagine that this is not what you meant, but yes, the 64 years before awakening all seem here to have been another Vince. Almost like a character in a movie.
(perhaps even different = special) which have been a huge part of what I consider as me.
Yes, every child wants to feel special. Unique, while at the same time wanting to be normal (whatever that is)
another..me,me,me thing.
How bad am I? I am a bigger sinner than you. I am carrying sooooo much. Etc. More self judgement and self pity
Victim is special.
Some events and acts are even now being normalised due to the Internet.
Yes, culture & language is constantly evolving (or devolving) Every generation (of teenagers) wants to do it differently from their parents.
But I must have felt there was a need to be contrite. But to be contrite I must have to carry around with me
..and so we tell and retell the stories about how bad it was/is. We keep it alive.
rather than feeling I have paid my dues
Do you think that this made you a better person? ..or to stop it from happening again? ..or something else?
Feeling contrite is surely a humbling affair but it now feels quite the opposite. Like a twisted glory? Who would I be without this story… as So many masters say.
O my.
Oh, good seeing. Celebrate that.
Do you think that now you can wrap it all up into a (useful) story that there were a myriad of conditions that enabled it to just happen and that it was necessary for you to be where you are today?

with love

vince

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Connolly
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Re: Painful repetitive thought patterns

Postby Connolly » Tue Aug 24, 2021 12:01 pm

Hi Vince
Do you think that this made you a better person? ..or to stop it from happening again? ..or something else?
I think this was about being contrite. I am seeing how the contrite ness also has blame in. All story and feel now that I will be nothing if this all drops. Not particularly a better person but it has broadened my outlook on human nature and enabled empathy. I couldn’t stop anything from happening again. Something else? I can only see that the story of the past has played it’s part but if seen from a sense that there is only this moment then it could be seen as all story cannot have any effect on that which sees everything.
So it’s a this point I feel I need to ask you about others. Whilst I can understand they too are characters in the story the oneness that is the truth would mean that there are no persons. I can understand that the one that sees experience is in all the characters but somehow the two understandings won’t fit together. I am thinking it’s because I still see myself as an ‘I’ who is separate so cannot get this from its perspective. I know the mind cannot grasp this so it must come from what is.
I so wish mind would just get out of the way so I can see what is truth.

All my love helen

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vinceschubert
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Re: Painful repetitive thought patterns

Postby vinceschubert » Tue Aug 24, 2021 2:53 pm

Good evening Helen,
So it’s at this point I feel I need to ask you about others.
Yes, i can tell you my story of others, but you must check this with your own experience. Ruthlessly.
This is from my experience. ..and my experience is all that i know.
All else is a mystery. It is something, but i don't know what. It includes everything and everybody.
Just as the tree falling makes no sound, but vibrates the air, and the sound is my brain interpreting those vibrations after they stimulate my ears, then everything that is perceived as not me is also an interpretation of sensory input.
That interpretation is regulated by a lifetime of experiences and my physical predilections.
To put it simply, i cannot know the actuality of others. i can only know of my projections, my interpretations.
This can be extended to the actuality of myself too. What i am beyond experiencing is also a mystery. Especially if i speculate about the why and the how of any happening.
i experience happenings as they occur. Well, actually that is not accurate. i experience happenings shortly (milliseconds maybe) after they occur. The happenings are interpreted and story follows. i then respond to that story.
Sometimes that story is conscious, sometimes it is expressed as a predilection. An automatic impulse.
For the whole waking day, i am responding to sensory stimulation or mental stimulation. Those that i call others, provide both kinds of stimulation.
It is clear that the other that i call Helen, is a story that forms in my mind, shaped by my interpretation of the squiggles on this computer screen. i can imagine that vince is your story from an interpretation of what you read, tempered of course by your lifetime of experience, etc.

with much love

vince

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Connolly
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Re: Painful repetitive thought patterns

Postby Connolly » Wed Aug 25, 2021 8:01 pm

Hi Vince.
Thank you for your honest and clear answer to the question of others.
I have explored this and can see that interaction has many memories, beliefs and conditioning to it. In reality without those there is only listening and talking or typing. So much is brought to any relationship but it mostly in thought.
To put it simply, i cannot know the actuality of others. i can only know of my projections, my interpretations.
Yes that has to be the case. It’s odd but when I apply that to a me I cannot separate out the actuality of myself … what is coming for that which just happens, and stories.
i experience happenings as they occur. Well, actually that is not accurate. i experience happenings shortly (milliseconds maybe) after they occur. The happenings are interpreted and story follows. i then respond to that story.
So if experience happenings after they occur which suggests time then if there is no I it must be that what experiences also creates it? O heck tying myself in knots.
Thank you, helen

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Re: Painful repetitive thought patterns

Postby vinceschubert » Wed Aug 25, 2021 10:34 pm

Good morning Helen, Yes, time is a tricky one. It is definitely a mental construct.
When we have a memory experience we label it as in the past. When we have a certain kind of fantasy we label it is a possible future. Experiencing in between those two we call now.
Mind links all of those together into what we call a timeline. (It often adds a further link called cause and effect.)
If we investigate the 'now' experience (do it yourself now) it can be seen that the mental consideration of the experience, is in fact mind playing with the memory of that experience.
There is such a thing as direct experiencing, which happens before the interpretation of it occurs.
Even to experience that interpretation is a rehash of it. A memory of it.
Do you remember the cup exercise? When you experienced seeing, that was direct experiencing, but were you relating to a memory as you told me about it?
So, if we consider the concept of time, we can see that we have introduced other concepts, such as before and after, earlier and later, soon and not long ago, etc. These are useful concepts especially when communicating, but are they actual?
Consider a dog (or what we imagine is happening for that animal) It's easy to imagine that it lives in a continuous flow of now, now, now, et al.
..but then we have the animal who has been trained to sit while waiting for a treat. Is it anticipating some future reward? ..or is the sitting linked to an expectation that doesn't have a 'future' component?
When i approach my dog with ear drops and she sees the bottle and runs away, is she remembering something from the past, or is she experiencing something in the present (now)
Oh, and is now a time? Is it sandwiched between the past and the future, or is it a concept that we use casually for recent memories and fantasies with the label soon?

with love

vince

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Connolly
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Re: Painful repetitive thought patterns

Postby Connolly » Fri Aug 27, 2021 5:21 pm

Hi Vince
Re time:
Do you remember the cup exercise? When you experienced seeing, that was direct experiencing, but were you relating to a memory as you told me about it?
Yes experiencing just seeing is direct experiencing but memory and possible conditioning all play their part in the experience to relate it.
Concepts of time…before/after, …
These are useful concepts especially when communicating, but are they actual?
all is in memory and memory as I have seen cannot be trusted and just pops up in no particular timeline. So it’s possible the past cannot be a timeline. It’s almost like a memory has to be accompanied by another one to place it in context. Gosh I never thought about that. The future cannot be a timeline either. Therefore no timeline. Hmmmm
Dog treat.
Is it anticipating some future reward? ..or is the sitting linked to an expectation that doesn't have a 'future' component?
Not sure really. We may interpret it as future reward but it maybe just acting on instinct.
This is interesting.
When i approach my dog with ear drops and she sees the bottle and runs away, is she remembering something from the past, or is she experiencing something in the present (now)
So I saw that memory is disjointed without a timeline but running away, like fight or flight reactions seems to what can only be experienced in the now. Fight or flight doesn’t seem to be based on memory it just seems what is sort of inbuilt but not a memory thing. But a small bottle of ear drops? The dog knows to run? Not sure, so I don’t know what would trigger it. If the dog had never seen ear drops before would it still run? It seems we interpret this as being the case.
Oh, and is now a time? Is it sandwiched between the past and the future, or is it a concept that we use casually for recent memories and fantasies with the label soon?
No the absolute now, not a minute sooner or later and out of thinking there is no time. I hope I am not regurgitating this but it’s subtle and i just know there is no time in now.

Love helen.

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Re: Painful repetitive thought patterns

Postby vinceschubert » Sat Aug 28, 2021 1:55 pm

Good evening Helen,
memory and possible conditioning all play their part in the experience to relate it.
Yes, that is using concept for practical purposes, but do we need to believe that it is something that it is not?
We use many concepts to communicate impressions that we don't take literally, don't we. A simple example might be when we say "I'm boiling." or "I'm cooking." to mean that we are hot. ..or "I'm freezing." to mean that we are cold. So how come we have come to believe some concepts when examination reveals that they are not actual? Like a Self or Truth actually exist.
..and to bring this into a more practical arena, how come we automatically believe the 95% of our thought stories that are total rubbish?
Therefore no timeline.
Yes, dog treat.
It is a useful concept though. It just doesn't need to be taken literally.
This is interesting.
Yes, it it interesting. ..and more than interesting. It is something that we can only speculate about. It's a mystery, just like everything, including ourselves.
out of thinking there is no time.
You got it! Beautiful.
Take it further. What is there besides thinking? (from the perspective of the organism called Helen)

with love

vince

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Re: Painful repetitive thought patterns

Postby Connolly » Mon Aug 30, 2021 12:07 pm

Hello Vince
Yes, that is using concept for practical purposes, but do we need to believe that it is something that it is not?
I am really not sure. Belief seems to be the crux of this. Believing in time but at the same time it can’t exist as we think it does yet it’s believed in. I can’t quite understand how this would happen other than habit and life conditioning.
.and to bring this into a more practical arena, how come we automatically believe the 95% of our thought stories that are total rubbish?
The million dollar question. Yes why? Someone once said we love to frighten ourselves like watching a horror movie. Or to feel alive. I feel there is an energy driving my future horror thoughts.
Take it further. What is there besides thinking? (from the perspective of the organism called Helen
I suppose thinking could be likened to the seances of taste, touch, feel and smell. They happen and are experienced by me.
Do I need to dig deep to find out what is driving these fearful thoughts?


All my love helen

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Re: Painful repetitive thought patterns

Postby vinceschubert » Mon Aug 30, 2021 2:27 pm

Do I need to dig deep to find out what is driving these fearful thoughts?
No! Absolutely not. We know that they're there because of conditioning. Habit.
Digging at them just perpetuates them. Strengthens them.
We can't stop them with willpower. They will stop by themselves when you stop feeding them.
Here's a really deep spiritual aphorism; All thoughts are crap!
Well, that's not quite accurate. There are possibly 5% that are useful. ..but you don't have to worry about finding them. They will make themselves known to you. The rest will eventually be like the clouds in the sky. Just floating by. Sometimes noticed. Often not.
Belief seems to be the crux of this.
Ok, let's look at belief. What is it?
Is it an attitude towards certain thoughts?
Does it have a physical component?
How do you know which thoughts are believed?
Is a belief permanent, or can it cease to be believed?
If a belief is discontinued, is it always replaced by a different belief?
If a belief comes into play, is it always triggered by something?
Are all beliefs learned?
I feel there is an energy driving my future horror thoughts.
Give me a few sentences about this energy.


with love

vince

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Connolly
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Re: Painful repetitive thought patterns

Postby Connolly » Wed Sep 01, 2021 1:20 pm

Wow. What I absolutely love here is challenging questions. It highlights just how much of reading from the gurus has been translated into concepts that I understand to be true but the they become fixed and happenings are viewed through these concepts.
I had to take time to let these questions fall because the big one about belief has been a puzzle and yet can be brushed off as ‘just belief’ and not really looked at.
Ok, let's look at belief. What is it?
Is it an attitude towards certain thoughts?
A belief seems to be a thought in its basic form but one which seems to agree and endorse so can be a catalyst for more thought. So yes it an attitude. The belief in an ‘I’ seems to contain so many belief thoughts that I feel it’s hard to break that all down.
Does it have a physical component?
no definitely not but it can affect the body in reactions to it.
How do you know which thoughts are believed?
this is tough. I suppose only in retrospect can we look at what is thought to be believed. I believe in me as a separate entity. It must only exist in thought but thought says this is mine, body, feeling etc. But what is doing the believing? Here is where I come unstuck. I suppose it’s just a happening and the I cannot be seen as illusion in mind until it just does.
Is a belief permanent, or can it cease to be believed
? It must be permanent if there is no doubt. This is where doubt creeps in. People use the Santa Claus story as seeing though belief and it being permanent but that is because many factors uphold his non existence. The I has many, many, happenings that can show the I to be real unless it seen clearly it’s not. Perhaps that is what I am searching for… this bolt of lightening or even just a turn around of knowing.
If a belief is discontinued, is it always replaced by a different belief?
not necessarily if the knowing is firm enough but yes it very much can be replaced if it’s questioned. I have experienced this along this path.
If a belief comes into play, is it always triggered by something?
the quick answer says it must be due to conditioning. But then if there is no cause and effect do they just happen? Really not sure.
Are all beliefs learned?
again I would say yes but again just a happening?

Now …
We can't stop them with willpower. They will stop by themselves when you stop feeding them.
Here's a really deep spiritual aphorism; All thoughts are crap!
Love this! Yes to see them as crap would stop the feeding frenzy. It seems to be the only way as the more I try to distract myself the more they come because I am reminded of what I am running from. It’s the ‘don’t think about pink elephants’ scenario.
Give me a few sentences about this energy.
I feel there is something rotten I carry inside. Deep in the pit of my being somewhaere. Grudges, anger, shame, regret and fear. And I still believe I must face it and don’t know how. But here you say it doesn’t need to be faced so again back to belief but this has been around since childhood. I felt it has driven my life and that I have reacted from these. I know all human life experiences these and I used to think I was more sensitive to most about these emotions (always being told I think too much) but the second part of my life I have seen this differently. Just recently I have been with people who have extremely challenging lives charged with all those emotions.
O heck. Getting myself in a middle again.
I will look at belief more
Thank you as always
Love helen

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Re: Painful repetitive thought patterns

Postby vinceschubert » Thu Sep 02, 2021 10:15 pm

Good morning Helen,
It highlights just how much of reading from the gurus has been translated into concepts that I understand to be true but the they become fixed and happenings are viewed through these concepts.
Oh yes. i saw it described as "Romantic spiritualism" recently. i call it pop zen. The idea of perpetual bliss, etc, has a huge influence on creating a Guru industry and painting liberation as unatainable without an exotic setting or an expensive teacher. If each person that wakes up, passes it forward to only two others, then within a couple of generations we will have a much saner world.
The belief in an ‘I’ seems to contain so many belief thoughts that I feel it’s hard to break that all down.
Yes, thoughts that support other thoughts, that promote particular experiences.
Does it have a physical component?
no definitely not but it can affect the body in reactions to it.
yes, here when a belief is encountered, there is a kind of relaxing into it feeling. When a (belief) story happens, like, "When tomorrow is now, there will be daylight and vince will experience enjoyment." there is an almost audible "Ahh.." in response.
But what is doing the believing? Here is where I come unstuck. I suppose it’s just a happening
You only have to remember the cup exercise to realize that a what not only isn't necessary, but to cognize that the believing that is happening is all that exists. Your experiencing is you. The experiencing is the totality of Helen. Everything else imagined supports that experiencing.
Experiencing a body called Helen, experiencing an other, experiencing seeing or touching a tree, all of this, remove the experiencing and there is no Helen.
This new perspective does take some getting used to. Once seen, it needs constant reminding until it it becomes the norm.
The I has many, many, happenings that can show the I to be real unless it seen clearly it’s not. Perhaps that is what I am searching for… this bolt of lightening or even just a turn around of knowing.
Yes, even language has evolved to support this illusion.
i think that you have seen that an I is illusory but the preponderance of everything that supports the illusion keeps that old belief alive. This will change.
this bolt of lightening or even just a turn around of knowing.
This can happen with one sentence. When Vince heard "the mosquito bite of seeking will never heal while you keep scratching it." WHAM! That was my bolt of lightening. It happened for another seeker a few days ago when he heard "All thoughts are crap."
It may not happen with a bolt of lightening, but that turn around of knowing (believing) that you mentioned. It this is the way it happens for Helen, then it will be led by experience.
It seems to be the only way as the more I try to distract myself the more they come because I am reminded of what I am running from.
yes, there is another old aphorism that says "what you resist, you make stronger." i believe this to be accurate.
I feel there is something rotten I carry inside. Deep in the pit of my being somewhere.
Yes, experience can corrupt the inherent good nature of the organism. You only have to look at a baby or a young animal to see the great beauty that we start out with. i believe that although it might be suppressed by conditioning, that it still exists. That in Helen there is a really beautiful energy waiting for release. Like a 'Jack in a box', it just needs a lid to be lifted to spring out.
This belief is confirmed by experiences here.
O heck. Getting myself in a muddle again.
That happens, but you will always rise to the surface again and appreciate the fresh air.

with love (and more)

vince

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Connolly
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Re: Painful repetitive thought patterns

Postby Connolly » Sat Sep 04, 2021 11:49 am

Hello Vince.
When Vince heard "the mosquito bite of seeking will never heal while you keep scratching it." WHAM! That was my bolt of lightening. It happened for another seeker a few days ago when he heard "All thoughts are crap."
This is becoming clearer of how I I am remembering negative stories and projecting future negative stories which I am slowly understanding are all keeping the wheels in motion. Its almost like a pulling and pushing happening. I sort of feel that the negative space is part of me and very familiar but at the same time resisting it. Resistance is futile and yes I understand that it will persist because it is being kept alive. But I can’t quite see yet how all thoughts are crap. I seem to think that creative ideas and problem solving come from thoughts. So I still have faith in thought. Where else would they come from?
But yes to pass this pointing away from mind to what you really are is a great gift to the world blessings to all awakened people like yourself.
T
hat in Helen there is a really beautiful energy waiting for release. Like a 'Jack in a box', it just needs a lid to be lifted to spring out.
I bowed my head in reverence and cried at this.
I was referred some time ago for Cognitive Behaviour Therapy for anxiety. So I gave it another go! Interestingly the whole model is based on belief. I thought when I did this last time it spoke about changing thought but now analogy of naughty parrot put to sleep with a blanket on his cage and bus drivers ignoring all the naughty comments from the passengers and just keep focused on the driving are used to change focus. Hmmmmm. A trickle could become a ground swell of understanding of reality.

All my love Helen

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Re: Painful repetitive thought patterns

Postby vinceschubert » Sun Sep 05, 2021 3:25 pm

Good evening Helen,
I can’t quite see yet how all thoughts are crap. I seem to think that creative ideas and problem solving come from thoughts. So I still have faith in thought. Where else would they come from?
Yes, of course, that was a simplistic way of putting it. To be more (or less) accurate i'd say that 95% of thoughts are not useful. That they are the stimulus for suffering. These are the thoughts that automatically arise. The nature of which is conditioned. Habitual. They might be considered to arise from an unconscious origin.
The very small percentage that are useful, would be those that are applied to achieve something. These might be considered to arise from a conscious origin. Useful thoughts have a way of making themselves known. They don't attempt to control you, they offer themselves for consideration.
Can you relate to this? (remember, don't believe anything said without checking it out from your own experience.)
I sort of feel that the negative space is part of me and very familiar but at the same time resisting it.
Yes, familiarity is comforting, even if it is painful.
But yes to pass this pointing away from mind to what you really are is a great gift
Yes it is. ..and what i really am is a great mystery. The same mystery that is ALL, EVERYTHING. How good would the world be without opinion and judgment? With the crazy freedom of not knowing anything. Of not having to know anything.
I bowed my head in reverence and cried at this.
That beauty is the natural condition of everything.
analogy of naughty parrot put to sleep with a blanket on his cage and bus drivers ignoring all the naughty comments from the passengers and just keep focused on the driving are used to change focus.
i like both of those analogies. The bus driver one especially. i can see him/her having a chuckle at what is being heard. i like the analogy of clouds in the sky. Sometimes noticed, often ignored. Almost always there when looking happens, but sometimes a really clear sky with amazing color.

with love

vince

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Connolly
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Re: Painful repetitive thought patterns

Postby Connolly » Mon Sep 06, 2021 4:53 pm

Oh Vince, hello
I really don’t think I will ever get this. I am stuck in ‘this can’t be, it’s not fair, I have given all this time and faith and look where it’s got me’
Bit of a pity party I know but still.
It seems to promise so much yet feels so painful.
Hopeless. All the expectations have come to naught.
I just don’t know what to say
I’m so sorry and thank you for your time and great wisdom
I feel guilty for taking up your time. So I’m offering you a get out if you need one.
Love helen.


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